How Do You Represent Atheists?

[Uber Genius]

Recently I read an article by a Christian philosopher, Randal Rouser. He is an interesting Canadian chap who engages atheists in a friendly manner. He has written a 20-page scholarly paper entitled, "The Atheist and the Antitheist:
A Critical Analysis of the Rebellion Thesis."

I have shortened it to highlight the main points. After lament the mocking and anti-intellectual tenor of the new atheists view of Christians he says:

"But my interest here is not on how atheists view Christians. Rather, it is on how Christians view atheists. And the sad truth is that Christians, on the whole, are no better than the new atheists. If atheists often caricature Christian beliefs, Christians are all too quick to return the favor as in this graphic from a Christian website.

"Atheism. The belief that there was nothing and nothing happened to nothing and then nothing magically exploded for no reason, creating everything and then a bunch of everything magically rearranged itself for no reason what so ever into self-replicating bits which then turned into dinosaurs. Makes perfect sense.”

Rouser continues to pile on the evidence that Christian leaders over the last 50+ years (although the thesis might hold more strongly earlier), mock and deride atheists as morally corrupt, and rebellious.

Here is a piece of evidence from R.C. Sproul, famous reformed professor and behind a thirty-five year teaching ministry and popular radio show, "Renewing Your Mind."

Sproul describes the following interaction he had with a group of atheists:

"I was invited to a university campus several years ago to speak to an atheists’ club. They asked me to present the intellectual case for the existence of God. I did, and as I went through the arguments for the existence of God, I kept things on an intellectual plane. All things were safe and comfortable until I got to the end of my lecture. At that point I said, “I’m giving you arguments for the existence of God, but I feel like I’m carrying coals to Newcastle because I have to tell you that I do not have to prove to you that God exists, because I think you already know it.
Your problem is not that you do not know that God exists; your problem is that you despise the God whom you know exists. Your problem is not intellectual; it is moral— you hate God.”

Rouser's thesis is,

"If you want to understand people, if you want to know the outsider, the foreigner, the stranger, set aside your presuppositions and prejudices, and welcome them in as a brother or sister or friend: welcome the Christian, the Muslim, the Hindu, the Buddhist, the communist, the capitalist, the socialist, the secularist, the feminist, the nationalist, the environmentalist, and the atheist ... the atheist who is your neighbor."


http://randalrauser.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/The-Atheist-and-the-Antitheist.pdf

I advise reading the article.

Do you think that atheists are:

In rebellion?

Fools that ignore important truths about their world?

Blind, by God or their own pride, and can't possibly understand the external world?

Similar to us but with a different set of data about the world. I.E. Differing sets of conceptual knowledge and experiential knowledge?

 

[Mountain_Girl406]

I'm not an atheist (yet) but I find the line of thought that atheists ...hear and experience God, yet turn away...very frustrating. Speaking for myself, I have looked and prayed for something...some sense of God, for a long time and haven't seen it. I continue to try, and have begun to take a look at the logical arguments for the existence of God (or any supernatural being/s) with more interest because if there is a god, there hasn't been any indication yet in my experience .

 

[LutheranGuy123]

Penn Jillette once said something about that "gotcha" that people like using. "You're right, without a higher power I am free to rape and murder as many people as I want. And that number is ZERO! If it's anything OTHER than zero you need help!"

 

[Halbhh]

Recently I read an article by a Christian philosopher, Randal Rouser. He is an interesting Canadian chap who engages atheists in a friendly manner. He has written a 20-page scholarly paper entitled, "The Atheist and the Antitheist:
A Critical Analysis of the Rebellion Thesis."

I have shortened it to highlight the main points. After lament the mocking and anti-intellectual tenor of the new atheists view of Christians he says:

"But my interest here is not on how atheists view Christians. Rather, it is on how Christians view atheists. And the sad truth is that Christians, on the whole, are no better than the new atheists. If atheists often caricature Christian beliefs, Christians are all too quick to return the favor as in this graphic from a Christian website.

"Atheism. The belief that there was nothing and nothing happened to nothing and then nothing magically exploded for no reason, creating everything and then a bunch of everything magically rearranged itself for no reason what so ever into self-replicating bits which then turned into dinosaurs. Makes perfect sense.”

Rouser continues to pile on the evidence that Christian leaders over the last 50+ years (although the thesis might hold more strongly earlier), mock and deride atheists as morally corrupt, and rebellious.

Here is a piece of evidence from R.C. Sproul, famous reformed professor and behind a thirty-five year teaching ministry and popular radio show, "Renewing Your Mind."

Sproul describes the following interaction he had with a group of atheists:

"I was invited to a university campus several years ago to speak to an atheists’ club. They asked me to present the intellectual case for the existence of God. I did, and as I went through the arguments for the existence of God, I kept things on an intellectual plane. All things were safe and comfortable until I got to the end of my lecture. At that point I said, “I’m giving you arguments for the existence of God, but I feel like I’m carrying coals to Newcastle because I have to tell you that I do not have to prove to you that God exists, because I think you already know it.
Your problem is not that you do not know that God exists; your problem is that you despise the God whom you know exists. Your problem is not intellectual; it is moral— you hate God.”

Rouser's thesis is,

"If you want to understand people, if you want to know the outsider, the foreigner, the stranger, set aside your presuppositions and prejudices, and welcome them in as a brother or sister or friend: welcome the Christian, the Muslim, the Hindu, the Buddhist, the communist, the capitalist, the socialist, the secularist, the feminist, the nationalist, the environmentalist, and the atheist ... the atheist who is your neighbor."


http://randalrauser.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/The-Atheist-and-the-Antitheist.pdf

I advise reading the article.

Do you think that atheists are:

In rebellion?

Fools that ignore important truths about their world?

Blind, by God or their own pride, and can't possibly understand the external world?

Similar to us but with a different set of data about the world. I.E. Differing sets of conceptual knowledge and experiential knowledge?

It came to me to read how Paul worded it about non-belief, because it has several pieces, not just a couple, including that wonderful point that our own preaching is "foolishness", which can be very helpful to keep in mind as we talk to others.

The context is directly useful to your post, because of how believers are just as able to be off on the wrong track, so I'll make a more full quote (from 1 Cor)--

10 I appeal to you, brothers and sisters, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another in what you say and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly united in mind and thought. 11My brothers and sisters, some from Chloe’s household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. 12What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephas [Peter]”; still another, “I follow Christ.”

13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Paul? 14I thank God that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15so no one can say that you were baptized in my name. 16(Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don’t remember if I baptized anyone else.) 17For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with wisdom and eloquence, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19For it is written:

“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”

20 Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.

26 Brothers and sisters, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. 27But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, 29so that no one may boast before him. 30It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 31Therefore, as it is written: “Let the one who boasts boast in the Lord.”

---

So, yes, we do need to "welcome them in as a brother or sister or friend".

This way, we are communicating in a way words cannot, and in the most essential way, about Him.

Very often, pride is a *compensation* for a wound.

The best way we can help those who are wounded emotionally, stuck in their prideful situation, and non belief, is thus with love first. Even first, middle, and last. In time, many will want to know more -- "how do you do that?" or "what makes you that way?" or "what makes you believe?" At that point, they are really asking, sincerely.

 

[PloverWing]

People hold their religious beliefs for a variety of reasons. Some atheists have carefully examined reason and evidence to come to a conclusion. Some seem to be angry at having been hurt by adherents of a particular religion, and want no part of that religion. Some were simply raised in nonreligious households and find religion unimportant.

With that said, when I talk with atheists, I generally assume that they are in the first category (reason and evidence) unless I have reason to believe otherwise. Atheism is a reasonable point of view, after all.

I strongly dislike caricatures and mockery of atheism and other faiths. We Christians look silly at best, and mean-spirited as well, when we misrepresent other people's beliefs; we look like we don't know what we're talking about.

I've never met an atheist who said "I believe in God, and I've experienced God, but I pretend God doesn't exist because I enjoy shoplifting too much." (Maybe there are such people, but I haven't run across them.) Claiming that another person is an atheist just because they enjoy hurting people is a terrible slander, and that's not something Christians should be a part of.

 

[AlexDTX]

Rouser's thesis is,

"If you want to understand people, if you want to know the outsider, the foreigner, the stranger, set aside your presuppositions and prejudices, and welcome them in as a brother or sister or friend: welcome the Christian, the Muslim, the Hindu, the Buddhist, the communist, the capitalist, the socialist, the secularist, the feminist, the nationalist, the environmentalist, and the atheist ... the atheist who is your neighbor."

I understand his point, and I understand the potential loss of understanding the RC Sproul made after his speech, which no doubt turned off the discussion completely in the minds of the listeners. There is a time to make such statements, however. Jesus called the Pharisees snakes and vipors, etc. But a careful reading of the Gospels shows that Jesus did so after they had fully rejected him and had already begun the plot to murder him.

That being said, I disagree with the idea of treat the unregenerate as brothers, for they are not. They remain in the family of Adam whereas believers are now in a new family of Christ. All people deserve respect and kindness since all people are still in the image of God (though marred by sin) who Christ died for and longs for them to accept his gift of salvation. So, I agree with the spirit of what the author is saying.

 

[Uber Genius]

It came to me to read how Paul worded it about non-belief, because it has several pieces, not just a couple, including that wonderful point that our own preaching is "foolishness", which can be very helpful to keep in mind as we talk to others.

The context is directly useful to your post, because of how believers are just as able to be off on the wrong track, so I'll make a more full quote (from 1 Cor)--

10 I appeal to you, brothers and sisters, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another in what you say and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly united in mind and thought. 11My brothers and sisters, some from Chloe’s household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. 12What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephas [Peter]”; still another, “I follow Christ.”

13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Paul? 14I thank God that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15so no one can say that you were baptized in my name. 16(Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don’t remember if I baptized anyone else.) 17For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with wisdom and eloquence, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19For it is written:

“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”

20 Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.

26 Brothers and sisters, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. 27But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, 29so that no one may boast before him. 30It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 31Therefore, as it is written: “Let the one who boasts boast in the Lord.”

---

So, yes, we do need to "welcome them in as a brother or sister or friend".

This way, we are communicating in a way words cannot, and in the most essential way, about Him.

Very often, pride is a *compensation* for a wound.

The best way we can help those who are wounded emotionally, stuck in their prideful situation, and non belief, is thus with love first. Even first, middle, and last. In time, many will want to know more -- "how do you do that?" or "what makes you that way?" or "what makes you believe?" At that point, they are really asking, sincerely.

Think about how he engaged them at Athens! Certainly he is not praising paganism, but is starting by praising how religious they are.

So if Paul at Mars Hill is praising idolaters, then I see no need to condemn as fools atheists.

Your point that we all came from places of non-belief, is well-taken.

 

[Dave G.]

It doesn't much matter what their view is, they are lost. But with science coming on board with the notion that there has to be something in control over creation it blows evolution out of the water. Once creation is established , then who did it ? Someone eternal and mighty powerful who knows things beyond our comprehension looks better and better. He calls Himself God in scripture , regardless of what man wants to call Him or it.

I heard and interesting portion of a sermon, really more of an informational speach from Chuck Missler. He spoke of an atheist quantum math scientist who decided to prove there was God and so disproving there was God by the numbers, by numbers crunching, knowing in his mind that there was none or assuming it I should say. The numbers surprised him after all the calculations. He ran it through a data base with computers working for crazy amounts of time and they came up with something on the order of .0000001 chance that there was no God.

Also through quantum science it's believed there are about 12 or 14 dimensions they would like to get a grasp on so to speak. They have proved more than we know of in our natural life already and it was stated that the third heaven could well be in a 7th dimension. And you wonder why we can't see God or heaven or the things of the spiritual realm ? The bible is a speck of of information of what God knows and written to people of 2000 years ago or more in terms they might grasp. So AS SCIENCE scrambles in trying to understand the next little piece, God knew it all and invented it all before the foundation of the world.

Amazing Stuff !

 

[Uber Genius]

I'm not an atheist (yet) but I find the line of thought that atheists ...hear and experience God, yet turn away...very frustrating. Speaking for myself, I have looked and prayed for something...some sense of God, for a long time and haven't seen it. I continue to try, and have begun to take a look at the logical arguments for the existence of God (or any supernatural being/s) with more interest because if there is a god, there hasn't been any indication yet in my experience .

Reasonablefaith.org

The New Atheism and Five Arguments for God | Reasonable Faith

 

[Halbhh]

I understand his point, and I understand the potential loss of understanding the RC Sproul made after his speech, which no doubt turned off the discussion completely in the minds of the listeners. There is a time to make such statements, however. Jesus called the Pharisees snakes and vipors, etc. But a careful reading of the Gospels shows that Jesus did so after they had fully rejected him and had already begun the plot to murder him.

That being said, I disagree with the idea of treat the unregenerate as brothers, for they are not. They remain in the family of Adam whereas believers are now in a new family of Christ. All people deserve respect and kindness since all people are still in the image of God (though marred by sin) who Christ died for and longs for them to accept his gift of salvation. So, I agree with the spirit of what the author is saying.

ah, not "brother" as "brother or sister of mine". Not that kind of "brother". He means (I think) merely with love. Not as if they are already a brother in Christ.

 

[Uber Genius]

It doesn't much matter what their view is, they are lost. But with science coming on board with the notion that there has to be something in control over creation it blows evolution out of the water. Once creation is established , then who did it ? Someone eternal and mighty powerful who knows things beyond our comprehension looks better and better. He calls Himself God in scripture , regardless of what man wants to call Him or it.

I heard and interesting portion of a sermon, really more of an informational speach from Chuck Missler. He spoke of an atheist quantum math scientist who decided to prove there was God and so disproving there was God by the numbers, by numbers crunching, knowing in his mind that there was none or assuming it I should say. The numbers surprised him after all the calculations. He ran it through a data base with computers working for crazy amounts of time and they came up with something on the order of .0000001 chance that there was no God.

Also through quantum science it's believed there are about 12 or 14 dimensions they would like to get a grasp on so to speak. They have proved more than we know of in our natural life already and it was stated that the third heaven could well be in a 7th dimension. And you wonder why we can't see God or heaven or the things of the spiritual realm ? The bible is a speck of of information of what God knows and written to people of 2000 years ago or more in terms they might grasp. So AS SCIENCE scrambles in trying to understand the next little piece, God knew it all and invented it all before the foundation of the world.

Amazing Stuff !

This view is known as concordism. Examine it and see if you are a concordist or not. There are some amazing mathematical evidences that support premises in say the teleological fine tuning of the universe. Likewise, the fact that a conceptual framework (mathematics) which on naturalism is purely a human construction, would continue to be the most appropriate way of understanding our physical world, is absurd given atheism. This argument has been around since the 1960s. Eugene Vigner

 

[Dave G.]

This view is known as concordism. Examine it and see if you are a concordist or not. There are some amazing mathematical evidences that support premises in say the teleological fine tuning of the universe. Likewise, the fact that a conceptual framework (mathematics) which on naturalism is purely a human construction, would continue to be the most appropriate way of understanding our physical world, is absurd given atheism. This argument has been around since the 1960s. Eugene Vigner

I just put it out there because I found the "lecture" for lack of a better term, very interesting. I'm terrible at math, somehow I managed 4 years of algebra but it escapes me how that could have been possible! if you listen to too much Missler you get your head scrambled from main stay Christianity. But he certainly puts out some serious points of interest.

 

[Halbhh]

I'm not an atheist (yet) but I find the line of thought that atheists ...hear and experience God, yet turn away...very frustrating. Speaking for myself, I have looked and prayed for something...some sense of God, for a long time and haven't seen it. I continue to try, and have begun to take a look at the logical arguments for the existence of God (or any supernatural being/s) with more interest because if there is a god, there hasn't been any indication yet in my experience .

Personally, I think that being raised in a church is no help usually, for the key need we have --

"You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart.
I will be found by you,” declares the Lord...."

Christ says it further:

7 “Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened."

The problem with churches (in my experience, and that means a lot of different churches, different types of churches, over time, in many cities) is that they do *not* help us realize we have to seek God to find God!

People don't know it.

But, we can find Him. If we seek with all of our heart.

 

[Uber Genius]

That being said, I disagree with the idea of treat the unregenerate as brothers, for they are not.

Now look what you did there!

The quote was about friends, brothers or sister! Not "Brothers in Christ,"

They are atheists and are therefore mutually exclusive to Christian brothers.

I'll presume your equivocation of "Brothers," was accidental. As it leads to a straw representation of Rouser's view.

Also I'm am suspect of the interpretation that Jesus only spoke to the religious leaders in an unkind way towards the end of his ministry. At best it is an argument from ignorance about the set of discussions he had. More importantly he seemed to have words of knowledge about what certain individuals thought about him and also seemed to know which questions were genuine and which were just traps. Either way I try to be generous as I don't have that giving of the types of knowledge of men's hearts that Jesus did.

 

[Uber Genius]

People hold their religious beliefs for a variety of reasons. Some atheists have carefully examined reason and evidence to come to a conclusion. Some seem to be angry at having been hurt by adherents of a particular religion, and want no part of that religion. Some were simply raised in nonreligious households and find religion unimportant.

With that said, when I talk with atheists, I generally assume that they are in the first category (reason and evidence) unless I have reason to believe otherwise. Atheism is a reasonable point of view, after all.

I strongly dislike caricatures and mockery of atheism and other faiths. We Christians look silly at best, and mean-spirited as well, when we misrepresent other people's beliefs; we look like we don't know what we're talking about.

I've never met an atheist who said "I believe in God, and I've experienced God, but I pretend God doesn't exist because I enjoy shoplifting too much." (Maybe there are such people, but I haven't run across them.) Claiming that another person is an atheist just because they enjoy hurting people is a terrible slander, and that's not something Christians should be a part of.

Bravo.

I find myself having to focus on the fact hat is I were able to swap bodies and I had their conceptual knowledge and their experiences that I would most likely hold the beliefs they hold whether they be atheist, agnostic, pagan, or some other religion.

I help them improve their own defense of whatever views they hold. Why? Because the experiences the HS will give them if they become open, will be more than sufficient to overcome their current worldview.

 

[Uber Genius]

I just put it out there because I found the "lecture" for lack of a better term, very interesting. I'm terrible at math, somehow I managed 4 years of algebra but it escapes me how that could have been possible! if you listen to too much Missler you get your head scrambled from main stay Christianity. But he certainly puts out some serious points of interest.

Not that familiar with him but there are some amazing mathematical evidences that have led atheists like Antony Flew to theism. Thx.

 

[Petros2015]

Do you think that atheists are:

C.S. Lewis in training

 

[Uber Genius]

C.S. Lewis in training

Indeed! However we need to recognize the John Loftuses (trained under William Lane Craig) of the world or Templetons (good Christian friend of Billy Graham) who both converted to atheism based on additional experiential evidence (Loftus) or conceptual evidence (Templeton), that led them away rather than toward the truth of the gospel.

So humans can gain data that defeats their earlier beliefs.

 

[KWCrazy]

Given enough time, I think the godless will discover that God is real. The evidence is too compelling that our existence comprises more than simple naturalism. In the waning days of our lives we tend to think more of what happens next because for us the knowledge of our own mortality becomes more pronounced as those around us fall. We don't necessarily have that time. None of us knows when we will take our last breath. The godless are damned by their rejection of Christ. We were all there at one point. Now we are saved and they are still lost. We can avoid conflict by accepting their beliefs or we can challenge them to listen to the voice of the Savior who calls to them even now. Atheists are here to mock us and to show how foolish we are to believe in things unprovable, but they are here. If our message is string and unified, maybe one day they will hear it.

 

[AlexDTX]

Now look what you did there!

The quote was about friends, brothers or sister! Not "Brothers in Christ,"

They are atheists and are therefore mutually exclusive to Christian brothers.

I'll presume your equivocation of "Brothers," was accidental. As it leads to a straw representation of Rouser's view.

Also I'm am suspect of the interpretation that Jesus only spoke to the religious leaders in an unkind way towards the end of his ministry. At best it is an argument from ignorance about the set of discussions he had. More importantly he seemed to have words of knowledge about what certain individuals thought about him and also seemed to know which questions were genuine and which were just traps. Either way I try to be generous as I don't have that giving of the types of knowledge of men's hearts that Jesus did.

My point regarding brothers is not an argument but a qualification. I understand the spirit of the author and agree with it.

As for Jesus, make a careful reading of the Gospels and you will see that he never spoke harshly unto the Pharisees until after they began their plot to murder him. He spoke the truth, which aggravated them, but he did not call them out as snakes until after they began their plan to execute him.