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Total assurance is not required to be completely saved.
"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life." (John 5:24)
Jesus has promised all that believe on Him will not be condemned, if we have trusted Jesus Christ as the ONLY way to the Father and the ONLY way to eternal life we have nothing to worry about, Jesus is our Saviour as well as out LORD and nothing can separate us from Him.
"We can't know all of God's mind, but He has shown us some of what He is thinking - certainly enough to be confident in our salvation."
Let's see--
We don't know all of God's mind. AGREE
He has shown SOME of His thinking. AGREE
Enough to be confident in salvation. DISAGREE
-------Where did you go from "some" to confident? On what basis did you go from the partial to the certain?
I am reluctant to call it a "feeling." Rather, I prefer to call it a persistent certainty, or an unshakeable assurance. For me, it is on par with the certainty I have about brute facts like "I exist" and "the world exists." Even in the face of clever philosophical convolutions that would argue against such certainty, I know - I am certain - I exist. In the same way, I know as certainly as I know that I exist that I am God's child.
(1 John 3:9-10)No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because Gods seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.
The conclusion is this. There are children of God and children of the devil. The children of God have an abiding faith in Jesus Christ and have lives that are marked by obedience to Christ. They are striving to purify themselves even and Jesus Himself is pure. There are children of the devil. Some have deceived themselves in thinking that they actually belong to God. But their hope is not in Christ Himself. It is something else, often their heritage or their own work to be self-righteous. Their faith in Christ does not hold up when tested and they are not characterized by obedience to Christ. They may appear to be good people, for the devil himself is a deceiver and appears as an angel of light (2 Cor. 11:4). But when push comes to shove, they chose their own way instead of God's.
I think there are some who have an emotional experience and believe this is a sign of their genuine conversion, but Scripture never offers this as a basis for assurance of salvation. In fact, Christ suggests that an emotional response to the Gospel leads quickly to spiritual defection when things get hard. (Matt. 13:20, 21) As I explain above, "feeling the witness" is not an emotional event filled with exuberant joy and warm fuzzies, but a core certainty, an unshakeable knowing, about one's adoption into God's family. This certainty may give rise to strong emotion, but it is not itself just a strong emotion.
Oy, ugh. What a horrible motive for "keeping us near Him"! Do you really think God intends to keep us insecure and fearful about our salvation in order to scare us into walking rightly with Him? God calls for our love, not our fear. In fact, His Word tells us,
1 John 4:18-19
18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love.
19 We love Him because He first loved us.
We aren't saved on the basis of our service to God and we don't remain saved on that basis. God "accepts us in the beloved"; that is, He accepts us as His children because we have "put on Christ" and are thereby clothed in his perfect righteousness. When God sees one who is saved He sees them in Christ and that is the only basis upon which one gains God's acceptance. There is nothing in Scripture that indicates that this basis for our acceptance by God changes once we are saved.
How do you know you are not one of the chosen? By your behaviour? If so, then why can't this be the basis for knowing that you are one of the chosen? It seems to me that this is the way Scripture separates out a believer from a non-believer.
How do you know you will be one of the chosen? You don't. By the same token, you don't know that you won't be one of the chosen, either. In light of this, it seems pointless to me to fuss about it.
When you have doubts, you know you are saved, when you doubt you continually study the bible getting to know him more.
Pray for doubt, never assume your saved always strive to to better.
Those who are confident proud knowing they will be saved may not end up saved in the end.
We are all sinners, we constantly have sinful thoughts no matter how hard we try, they always invade, the best way to be saved is to never assume you are saved.
It's very worrying to hear that coming from a pastor. He shouldn't be in that position because he isn't a strong Christian but weak. Leaders in the Church must be strong in their faith.
This is an interesting comment to make about someone you've never met and know nothing about. Is it more important for a pastor to be a "strong" Christian, or is it more important that he/she be strong at leading people in their faith?
God Bless,
Wesley
One is needed for the other. A weak pastor will be weak leading others in their faith.
In all cases? What about pastors that have grown megachurches and led thousands of people to Christ, but have later been exposed has being lax on their faith and adherence to God's Word? Often the title "pastor" or "reverend" can give a person significant credibility and authority when it comes to spreading the Word of God.
I'm not saying that it's right, but I think that history has shown that pastors with weak faith can still lead people in their faith walk.
God Bless,
Wesley
Yes, you're right about that. I think I actually list some of the distinguishing characteristics of a genuine child of God in one of my posts. Here's what I wrote in my first post to this thread:But brother aiki, the Word did mention that the children of God have certain qualities to them that distinguish them from the children of the devil.
Certainly, Christ himself spoke of wheat and tares, which are extremely similar in appearance, abiding together in the Church. And of course there's that famous "Lord, Lord, -- I never knew you" speech that Jesus also gave.Not all who claim to be children of God are indeed His children.
Yes, this is true.No, I do not mean to say you are not a child of God, but I am pointing out a fact that one can easily call himself/herself a child of God when he/she really isn't.
As you can see from what I wrote above in my earlier post, I certainly agree.Just like one can falsely profess that he/she is a Christian when he/she has no faith in Christ, the same can happen when professing to be a child of God. That is why it is IMPORTANT to see the fruits/qualities of a professor to see if they really are who they claim to be.
And the very next verse says, "For it is God who works in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure." We simply work out what God has already worked in. Our salvation is secure because of what God has done, not because of what we do - or do not do.I think you have misunderstood what the other brother is saying. What he means is that we should often test ourselves to see if we are in true faith and whether we abide in Christ or not. Even the apostles exhorted us to work out our salvation with "fear and trembling".
I don't believe this process can occur as you've described it here. I believe the Bible teaches we can lose our fellowship with God but never our relationship to HIm. Just as I am always my earthly father's son no matter how closely I relate with him, I am always my heavenly Father's son no matter how closely I relate with Him. And God takes pains to draw me and keep me close to Him. Sometimes this involves experiencing His discipline, sometimes it is the goodness of God, His kindness and mercy that lead me to repentance and into fellowship with Him again. It is no easy thing to wander off spiritually; for God pursues and keeps His own passionately and inexorably.But this fear has nothing to do with fearing punishment for our sins, but rather fearing that we are departing from the faith which also means we will lose our connection with Christ and with God and ultimately leading to eternal separation from Christ and God.
My goodness! I couldn't disagree with you more here! God draws us to Himself (Jn. 6:44) and He is the One ultimately who places us in Christ. My faith (He. 12:2), my love for God (Ro. 5:5), my desire and ability to serve Him (Phil. 2:13) all come from Him. As Jesus says in John 15:5 "without me you can do nothing."The key here, brother, is to put on Christ and to abide in Christ. Clearly God will not help us to put on Christ, neither will He abide in Christ on our behalf.
In John 15 Christ uses the analogy of a vine and branches to picture what it means to "abide." Does a branch work to remain in the vine? No. It simply is part of the vine. The life-giving sap of the vine flows into the branch without any effort on the part of the branch. Simply being connected to the vine is enough to provide life to the branch. Moreover, all of the fruit the branch bears is not a product of the effort of the branch, but the result of the life of the vine flowing unhindered into and through the branch. The branch is essentially a vessel expressing the life of the vine. It is in light of these facts that Christ says,WE have to put on Christ and WE have to abide in Christ, not relying on God to do them on our behalf.
God does it all, Terene, which is why He gets all the glory. We are simply vessels in and through whom He works. When we start working and making an effort we have forgotten to abide as a branch in the vine. When I say this do I mean we sit like puppets waiting for God to physically move us to action? No. I mean the Christian life - the Bible reading, the prayer, the righteous living, the self-sacrificing love we extend to the world - all flow naturally, without effort or work, from one who has yielded completely and joyfully to God and counts on Him to be one's life.It does take our effort to put on Christ and to abide in Him, and this must be done UNTIL THE END.
Sure we can. But we cannot work ourselves into the place of abiding, which is first and foremost a place of rest. (Matt. 11:28) This is a place entered into by faith through full submission to God. It is a place of being, not doing; although the being inevitably gives rise naturally and easily to doing.Once we stop putting on Christ and we stop abiding in Him, God's acceptance no longer applies to us. Do you not see the possibility that we can stop putting on Christ and stop abiding in Him?
How do you know for sure if youre saved?
In the bible they knew precisely when people received that (invisible) Spirit, they spoke in tongues, this was taken as God's independant witness. I'm not aware that the situation ever changhed.
While I agree that this is the evidence (tongues) for a certain infilling of the Holy Spirit, I disagree that this has anything to do with the salvation of the soul. Salvation is by faith alone through grace alone, being baptised in the Holy Spirit is not salvation.
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