How do you feel about the Law?

Adventtruth · Jan 12, 2011

k4c said:
Delivered from the law of sin and death...yes.

Agreed.

Delivered from obeying the Ten Commandments...no.

Disagreed....can you kindly give me biblical support?

The law of sin and death is not the same as the Ten Commandments.

Agreed.

AT

Byfaithalone1 · Jan 12, 2011

k4c said:
Delivered from the law of sin and death...yes.

Delivered from obeying the Ten Commandments...no.

The law of sin and death is not the same as the Ten Commandments.

1Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives?

2For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband.
3So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man.
4Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.
5For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death.
6But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter. 7What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "YOU SHALL NOT COVET."

Which law contains "You shall not covet?"

BFA

Adventtruth · Jan 12, 2011

Byfaithalone1 said:
1Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives?

2For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband.
3So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man.
4Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.
5For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death.
6But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter. 7What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "YOU SHALL NOT COVET."

Which law contains "You shall not covet?"

BFA

I would say the ten commandments, which is the foundation of the Mosaic Law/covenant....which was only given to the Hebrew nation.

What do you say k4c?

AT

k4c · Jan 12, 2011

Adventtruth said:
I would say the ten commandments, which is the foundation of the Mosaic Law/covenant....which was only given to the Hebrew nation.

What do you say k4c?

AT

Byfaithalone1 & Adventtruth

4. you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead...
6. we have been released from the Law... I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "YOU SHALL NOT COVET.

What aspect of the Law have we been released from? This is the question you should be asking yourself.

Paul was being convicted of sin through the power of the Law to convict of sin. The consequence of sin is death but the strength of sin is the Law.

1 Corinthians 15:56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law.

Why is the streangth of sin the Law? Because the Law points out sin and makes it alive, which brings death also known as, the curse. This whole process of sin, Law, conviction and death is called, the law of sin and death.

Take away the power of the Law to convict of sin by taking away the sin, not the Law. We have been released from the Law's clenching power, which is given to it by our sin.

Romans 7:7-9 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, "You shall not covet.'' But sin (not, but law), taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead. I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died.

Once the Law points out our sin we become convicted and condemned but once we receive forgivness through the cleansing power of Christ's blood our sin is washed away thus disarming the condemning power of the Law.

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Paul's sin of covetousness was pointed out by the Law, which brought death because of that sin. But now, through Christ, Paul has been released from the power of the Law to convict of that sin because he has been cleansed by the blood of Christ. But this does not mean the sin of covetousness is no longer a sin for God's people nor does it mean the Law has lost all it's power to convict of future active sin in our lives.

To prove this point, let us go to the Scriptures to see if covetousness is still a sin. I'll just quote a few of the many verses.

Ephesians 5:3 But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints;

1 Timothy 3:3 a church leader must not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, but gentle, not quarrelsome, not covetous;

Hebrews 13:5 Let your conduct be without covetousness...

By the way, salvation was given to the Jews. I guess we should all just go home. Understand this, there is a difference between revelation and exclusiveness.

Adventtruth · Jan 12, 2011

k4c said:
Byfaithalone1 & AdventtruthWhat aspect of the Law have we been released from? This is the question you should be asking yourself.

None...never been under it.

Paul was being convicted of sin through the power of the Law to convict of sin. The consequence of sin is death but the strength of sin is the Law.

For the Jew sin was magnified throught law...for the gentile who never had law, law never mattered. Why? Because just like all men...they where in Adam.

1 Corinthians 15:56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law.

Why is the streangth of sin the Law? Because the Law points out sin and makes it alive,

Again...for the Jew who was under it. According to the law I can slap you upside your head all day and not break it.

which brings death also known as, the curse. This whole process of sin, Law, conviction and death is called, the law of sin and death.

Hold on now...the law had provisions for individuals who broke the law....the individual did not receive the curse. According to the covenant charter and Deut. The curse was for a nation as a whole and not individuals. You are misusing scripture. Read Deut. 27-30

Take away the power of the Law to convict of sin by taking away the sin, not the Law. We have been released from the Law's clenching power, which is given to it by our sin.

The gentile has never been under law...the Jew today is not under the law...both are in Adam or in Christ.

Romans 7:7-9 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, "You shall not covet.'' But sin (not, but law), taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead. I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died.

Once the Law points out our sin we become convicted and condemned but once we receive forgivness through the cleansing power of Christ's blood our sin is washed away thus disarming the condemning power of the Law.

Now if a person wants to use the law as a gauge thats fine...as long as he does not try and live by law. Gentiles never where under it. In context Paul is talking about the Hebrew nation who was given Torah.

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Paul's sin of covetousness was pointed out by the Law, which brought death because of that sin. But now, through Christ, Paul has been released from the power of the Law to convict of that sin because he has been cleansed by the blood of Christ.

Paul was not the only Jew...all of the Hebrews under the old covenant was just a guilty.

But this does not mean the sin of covetousness is no longer a sin for God's people nor does it mean the Law has lost all it's power to convict of future active sin in our lives.

No one is saying the opposite....we are saying no one is under jurisdiction of the law....today believers are following after and convicted of the Spirit.

To prove this point, let us go to the Scriptures to see if covetousness is still a sin. I'll just quote a few of the many verses.

Ephesians 5:3 But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints;

1 Timothy 3:3 a church leader must not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, but gentle, not quarrelsome, not covetous;

Hebrews 13:5 Let your conduct be without covetousness...

who is saying that these things are not sins?

By the way, salvation was given to the Jews. I guess we should all just go home. Understand this, there is a difference between revelation and exclusiveness.

Who is saying Jews did not have salvation???

AT

Byfaithalone1 · Jan 12, 2011

k4c said:
Byfaithalone1 & AdventtruthWhat aspect of the Law have we been released from?

According to Romans 7, Paul was released from the law that includes "You shall not covet." This seems to indicate that Paul was released from the ten commandments. Makes sense to me because Paul was one who had been under the law.

Paul was being convicted of sin through the power of the Law to convict of sin.

Indeed He was. Although Paul was one who had been "under the law," I am not.

Romans 7:7-9 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, "You shall not covet.'' But sin (not, but law), taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead. I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died.

As I've confirmed previously, we agree that the problem is with the people and not the law and that the letters engraved on stones represent the ministry that brings death.

Paul's sin of covetousness was pointed out by the Law,

And Paul knew about coveting because he had been "under the law." He confirms in Romans 7 that he had been released from the law. He is clear that the law that he is describing -- the very law from which he has been released -- includes the ten commandments.

By the way, salvation was given to the Jews. I guess we should all just go home. Understand this, there is a difference between revelation and exclusiveness.

We have access to the promises made to Abraham. That access has nothing to do with the covenant with Israelites that includes the ten commandments. Israel has not lost its place in the heart of God.

BFA

k4c · Jan 12, 2011

Adventtruth said:
None...never been under it.

For the Jew sin was magnified throught law...for the gentile who never had law, law never mattered. Why? Because just like all men...they where in Adam.

Again...for the Jew who was under it. According to the law I can slap you upside your head all day and not break it.

Hold on now...the law had provisions for individuals who broke the law....the individual did not receive the curse. According to the covenant charter and Deut. The curse was for a nation as a whole and not individuals. You are misusing scripture. Read Deut. 27-30

The gentile has never been under law...the Jew today is not under the law...both are in Adam or in Christ.

Now if a person wants to use the law as a gauge thats fine...as long as he does not try and live by law. Gentiles never where under it. In context Paul is talking about the Hebrew nation who was given Torah.

Paul was not the only Jew...all of the Hebrews under the old covenant was just a guilty.

No one is saying the opposite....we are saying no one is under jurisdiction of the law....today believers are following after and convicted of the Spirit.

who is saying that these things are not sins?

Who is saying Jews did not have salvation???

AT

Deleted, double post...

k4c · Jan 12, 2011

Adventtruth said:
None...never been under it.

For the Jew sin was magnified throught law...for the gentile who never had law, law never mattered. Why? Because just like all men...they where in Adam.

Again...for the Jew who was under it. According to the law I can slap you upside your head all day and not break it.

Hold on now...the law had provisions for individuals who broke the law....the individual did not receive the curse. According to the covenant charter and Deut. The curse was for a nation as a whole and not individuals. You are misusing scripture. Read Deut. 27-30

The gentile has never been under law...the Jew today is not under the law...both are in Adam or in Christ.

Now if a person wants to use the law as a gauge thats fine...as long as he does not try and live by law. Gentiles never where under it. In context Paul is talking about the Hebrew nation who was given Torah.

Paul was not the only Jew...all of the Hebrews under the old covenant was just a guilty.

No one is saying the opposite....we are saying no one is under jurisdiction of the law....today believers are following after and convicted of the Spirit.

who is saying that these things are not sins?

Who is saying Jews did not have salvation???

AT

The law on stone was given because of transgression, which means the law on stone is only a manifestation of that which always was. Sin, as it is defined in stone, was sin before Sinai. Both Jew and Gentile committed sin, as defined by the Law on stone, before Sinai and were found guilty. The wages of sin is death whether jew or gentile. You have always been under the law, you just don't know it until someone points it out to you.

If the Law don't apply to you then you don't need Jesus.

sunnimoreno · Jan 12, 2011

Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death (10 commandments). Rom8:1,2

But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones (10 commandments), was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not steadfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9For if the ministration of condemnation (10 commandments) be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11For if that which is done away (10 commandments) was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
12Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
13And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not steadfastly look to the end of that which is abolished (10 commandments): 2Cor3:7-13

I hope you guys see that the Holy Spirit (new testament) replaced the 10 commandments (old testament)... "abolished" "done away." You actually have 2 options: hold on to the "ministry of death engraved on stone" or be free in the Holy Spirit.

EastCoastRemnant · Jan 12, 2011

sunnimoreno said:
Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death (10 commandments). Rom8:1,2

But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones (10 commandments), was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not steadfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9For if the ministration of condemnation (10 commandments) be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11For if that which is done away (10 commandments) was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
12Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
13And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not steadfastly look to the end of that which is abolished (10 commandments): 2Cor3:7-13

I hope you guys see that the Holy Spirit (new testament) replaced the 10 commandments (old testament)... "abolished" "done away." You actually have 2 options: hold on to the "ministry of death engraved on stone" or be free in the Holy Spirit.

What standard is the Holy Spirit convicting me against... is not the term 'conviction' in relation to breaking a law? A criminal that is convicted of a crime is guilty of what? A law or the arbitrary will of the judge?

k4c · Jan 12, 2011

sunnimoreno said:
Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death (10 commandments). Rom8:1,2

But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones (10 commandments), was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not steadfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9For if the ministration of condemnation (10 commandments) be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11For if that which is done away (10 commandments) was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
12Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
13And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not steadfastly look to the end of that which is abolished (10 commandments): 2Cor3:7-13

I hope you guys see that the Holy Spirit (new testament) replaced the 10 commandments (old testament)... "abolished" "done away." You actually have 2 options: hold on to the "ministry of death engraved on stone" or be free in the Holy Spirit.

Done away with or written on the heart?

sunnimoreno · Jan 13, 2011

I’m sorry but I cannot find anywhere in the bible that the Holy Spirit convicts us against a set of laws. Contrary to your trend of thought or you doctrinal beliefs here is what the bible teaches:

“But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.” Gal5:18

“For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.”
Rom6:13-15

To prove your point could you please point out in the bible where it says that the Holy Spirit convicts of us of sin based on a set of written laws?

Thanks
Sunni

sunnimoreno · Jan 13, 2011

@K4c,

You could support your question by pointing out from the bible that the 10 commandments is actually the one written in the heart and how it is done. You will have to consider that the "ministry of death engraved on stone" was already "abolished" and "done away" as declared in 2 Corinthians 3:11, 13.

Thanks
Sunni

EastCoastRemnant · Jan 13, 2011

sunnimoreno said:
Im sorry but I cannot find anywhere in the bible that the Holy Spirit convicts us against a set of laws.

Again I ask you, what are we being convicted of?

Sin?

What is sin?

The transgression of the Law.

sunnimoreno · Jan 13, 2011

@EastCoastRemnant,

There is no question as to the meaning of sin. But when you talk about the “law” you will have to differentiate between the law – “ministry of death engraved on stone,” that was given to the ancient Israelites at Sinai and the law of the Spirit that replaced the law “engraved on stone.” These two a different identities. The latter made the former obsolete.

For a Christian to adhere to the “ministry of death engraved on stone” is a blatant denial of the “law of the Spirit” that is written in the heart. Denial of the law of the Spirit is the true definition of sin the New Covenant.

If you wish to remain in the ancient covenant that was declared “obsolete” (Heb8:13) you will be judged by it. I chose to be under the “law of the Spirit” and not be judged at all.

Choose you this day!
Sunni

EastCoastRemnant · Jan 13, 2011

sunnimoreno said:
@EastCoastRemnant,

There is no question as to the meaning of sin. But when you talk about the law you will have to differentiate between the law ministry of death engraved on stone, that was given to the ancient Israelites at Sinai and the law of the Spirit that replaced the law engraved on stone. These two a different identities. The latter made the former obsolete.

For a Christian to adhere to the ministry of death engraved on stone is a blatant denial of the law of the Spirit that is written in the heart. Denial of the law of the Spirit is the true definition of sin the New Covenant.

If you wish to remain in the ancient covenant that was declared obsolete (Heb8:13) you will be judged by it. I chose to be under the law of the Spirit and not be judged at all.

Choose you this day!
Sunni

I will be judged by it but fortunately, I've got the blood of Christ to pardon my confessed and forgiven transgressions. The ones that will be lost will be those judged by it without having all sin confessed and forgiven and therefore not covered by Christ's blood.

I'm curious, what exactly is the law of the Spirit? Is it part of the decalogue or some other group of rules? If we don't know what it entails, how can we be convicted of it and know when we are in violation of it?

Under this 'law of the Spirit', are we not held to the admonition to not worship idols now? Must be, as more and more people are caught up in the things of this world more than God. And that must be why I hear so many people using the Lords name in vain, because we are no longer under that command either....

Sounds like a good ear ticklin', feeling good in my sin doctrine if ya ask me....

k4c · Jan 13, 2011

sunnimoreno said:
I’m sorry but I cannot find anywhere in the bible that the Holy Spirit convicts us against a set of laws. Contrary to your trend of thought or you doctrinal beliefs here is what the bible teaches:

“But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.” Gal5:18

“For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.”
Rom6:13-15

To prove your point could you please point out in the bible where it says that the Holy Spirit convicts of us of sin based on a set of written laws?

Thanks
Sunni

We are not under law, we are under grace. The opposite of grace is not lawlessnesss, it's punishment.

When the Bible says we are not under the law it's referring to that aspect of the law that has power to bring condemnation for sin. God's grace is seen in the fact that He is not condemning us for our sin.

Let me give you an example from the Bible.

John 8:3-11 Then the scribes and Pharisees brought to Him a woman caught in adultery. And when they had set her in the midst, they said to Him, "Teacher, this woman was caught in adultery, in the very act.... (here we have the sin)

"Now Moses, in the law, commanded us that such should be stoned. But what do You say?''... (here we have the punishment for sin)

When Jesus had raised Himself up and saw no one but the woman, He said to her, "Woman, where are those accusers of yours? Has no one condemned you?'' She said, "No one, Lord.'' And Jesus said to her, "Neither do I condemn you;... (here we have grace instead of punishment)

go and sin no more.'' (Here we have God's will for continued obedience)

The Law on stone is a ministry of death because it was meant to control the outward actions of man through fear of death. But when we become born again and are cleansed by the blood of our guilt and condemnation for our sin then we can become as Paul who says he delighted in the Law.

Also, don't miss this very important part. The Law was suppose to bring life but because of our sin, it brought death. This means if we can do away with our sin the Law will bring life.

Romans 7:9-13 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me. Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good. Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful.

It's not the Law that brings death, it's sin. Do away with sin and condemnatin from that sin (not the Law) and you will experience life and life more abundantly.

Now go and sin no more...

Adventtruth · Jan 13, 2011

k4c said:
The law on stone was given because of transgression,

Yes.

which means the law on stone is only a manifestation of that which always was.

Chapter and verse

Sin, as it is defined in stone, was sin before Sinai.

But it was not imputed according to Romans 5 because much of it was not manifested as sin. But people still died....Do you know why k4c

Both Jew and Gentile committed sin, as defined by the Law on stone, before Sinai and were found guilty.

No they where convicted through conscience, not as defined on stone...Abraham slept with other females who where not Sarah....was he ever convicted?

The wages of sin is death whether jew or gentile.

Ok

You have always been under the law, you just don't know it until someone points it out to you.

Prove to me gentiles where under the law from the bible.

If the Law don't apply to you then you don't need Jesus.

Show chapter and verse please...you make stuff up I see. If you are not making this stuff up...show it to me according to the Torah.

AT

Byfaithalone1 · Jan 13, 2011

k4c said:
The law on stone was given because of transgression,

I agree. However, some folks assume this means a transgression of law. However, this can't be true because the law had not been added. God existed before the law was added and therefore sin was revealed as sin even before the law was added.

Sin, as it is defined in stone, was sin before Sinai.

I agree that sin was sin before Sinai. However, your argument fails to consider that many laws actually had a beginning. They did not eternal exist prior to the creation of the world. For example, laws relating to the seventh day sabbath, passover, animal sacrifices, circumcision and the day of atonement all had a starting point. They did not eternally exist.

Both Jew and Gentile committed sin, as defined by the Law on stone, before Sinai and were found guilty.

I can't see any reason to believe that Gentiles who had no connection with Israelites ever had any relationship whatsoever with the letters engraved on stones. This concept simply isn't ground in Scripture.

If the Law don't apply to you then you don't need Jesus.

Because I sin, I need Jesus. I am convicted of that sin through the ministry of the Spirit that brings life and not through the letters engraved on stones that bring death.

BFA

k4c · Jan 13, 2011

Adventtruth said:
Yes.
Chapter and verse

But it was not imputed according to Romans 5 because much of it was not manifested as sin. But people still died....Do you know why k4c

No they where convicted through conscience, not as defined on stone...Abraham slept with other females who where not Sarah....was he ever convicted?

Ok

Prove to me gentiles where under the law from the bible.

Show chapter and verse please...you make stuff up I see. If you are not making this stuff up...show it to me according to the Torah.

AT

God is righteous, God's Law is righteous we were made in God's image. We fell from that image. God is restoring that image in His people. He will have a paculiar people, a holy nation, a kingdom of priests. This can only happen when we, as a people, keep the commandments of God.

Exodus 19:6 "And you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.' These are the words which you shall speak to the children of Israel.''

The very next thing God gave was His Law to teach the people how to be a holy nation and a kingdom of priests.

This is the will of God in the New Covenant as well.

1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

All I can say is, if you choose to set up your own standard of right, after God had already done that for us, that's your free will choice. As for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

How do you feel about the Law?

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