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How do you explain Sheol?

Ryukil

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In the Old Testament, there is no Hell, only Sheol, which is where EVERYONE who dies goes, not just righteous people. In the New Testament you have Hell. Apparently the ancient Jews were influenced by the Greek view of the afterlife during the Hellenistic Age. The Greeks had a realm for the good (the Elysian fields) and a realm for the bad (Tartarus) unlike the ancient Jews.

So...for a while this has been a big problem for me. It seems like a flaw in the internal consistency of the Bible. How do you explain it?
 

MoreCoffee

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In the Old Testament, there is no Hell, only Sheol, which is where EVERYONE who dies goes, not just righteous people. In the New Testament you have Hell. Apparently the ancient Jews were influenced by the Greek view of the afterlife during the Hellenistic Age. The Greeks had a realm for the good (the Elysian fields) and a realm for the bad (Tartarus) unlike the ancient Jews.

So...for a while this has been a big problem for me. It seems like a flaw in the internal consistency of the Bible. How do you explain it?

It can be explained by including the deuterocanon in your canon of scripture. Then the evolution of ideas is included in the expanding revelation of God.
 
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It can be explained by including the deuterocanon in your canon of scripture. Then the evolution of ideas is included in the expanding revelation of God.

Hell was certainly an Idea created by the Catholic Church to the meaning of Sheol.

They created this unseen meaning i.e. Hell confusing the real meaning which was common man's grave, is the real truth of the matter.

The Hebrew word she’ohl′ occurs 65 times in the Masoretic text. In the King James Version, it is translated 31 times as “hell,” 31 times as “grave,” and 3 times as “pit.” The Catholic Douay Version rendered the word 63 times as “hell,” once as “pit,” and once as “death.”

In other words it mean grave which, we go to when we die.

(Romans 6:7) 7 For he who has died has been acquitted from [his] sin.

No such place of fiery torment it's a lie.
 
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yeshuasavedme

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In the Old Testament, there is no Hell, only Sheol, which is where EVERYONE who dies goes, not just righteous people. In the New Testament you have Hell. Apparently the ancient Jews were influenced by the Greek view of the afterlife during the Hellenistic Age. The Greeks had a realm for the good (the Elysian fields) and a realm for the bad (Tartarus) unlike the ancient Jews.

So...for a while this has been a big problem for me. It seems like a flaw in the internal consistency of the Bible. How do you explain it?
Sheol and the Lake of Fire were already described totally by "Enoch the prophet, the seventh from Adam", who was taken on a tour of the entire creation by angels and shown everything. What Enoch wrote is the foundation for the doctrines not laid again in the Torah or the prophets, but which Torah and Prophets -and Christ. Himself, come incarnate- refer to as Truth already laid as foundation, only.
So why would God re-lay the foundation that He laid once? -He does not ever do that.

The Book of Enoch, Translated by Robert H. Charles, 1912
Sheol:
22 And thence I went to another place, and he showed me in the west another great and high mountain and of hard rock. 2And there was in it four hollow places, deep and wide and very smooth. How smooth are the hollow places and deep and dark to look at. 3Then Raphael answered, one of the holy angels who was with me, and said unto me: "These hollow places have been created for this very purpose, that the spirits of the souls of the dead should assemble therein, yea that all the souls of the children of men should assemble here. 4And these places have been made to receive them till the day of their judgement and till their appointed period till the period appointed, till the great judgement comes upon them."
A Visit to Sheol
5I saw the spirits of the children of men who were dead, and their voice went forth to heaven and made suit. 6Then I asked Raphael the angel who was with me, and I said unto him: "This spirit- whose is it, whose voice goeth forth and maketh suit?" 7And he answered me saying: "This is the spirit which went forth from Abel, whom his brother Cain slew, and he makes his suit against him till his seed is destroyed from the face of the earth, and his seed is annihilated from amongst the seed of men." 8Then I asked regarding it, and regarding all the hollow places: "Why is one separated from the other?" 9And he answered me and said unto me: "These three have been made that the spirits of the dead might be separated. And such a division has been made for the spirits of the righteous, in which there is the bright spring of water. 10And such has been made for sinners when they die and are buried in the earth and judgement has not been executed on them in their lifetime. 11Here their spirits shall be set apart in this great pain till the great day of judgement and punishment and torment of those who curse for ever and retribution for their spirits. There He shall bind them for ever. 12And such a division has been made for the spirits of those who make their suit, who make disclosures concerning their destruction, when they were slain in the days of the sinners. 13Such has been made for the spirits of men who were not righteous but sinners, who were complete in transgression, and of the transgressors they shall be companions: but their spirits shall not be slain in the day of judgement nor shall they be raised from thence." 14Then I blessed the Lord of glory and said: "Blessed be my Lord, the Lord of righteousness, who ruleth for ever."
In Luke 16, Jesus tells of souls in Sheol, exactly as Enoch revealed.


The Lake of Fire: The Book of Enoch, Translated by Robert H. Charles, 1912
21 And I proceeded to where things were chaotic. And I saw there something horrible: 2I saw neither a heaven above nor a firmly founded earth, but a place chaotic and horrible. 3And there I saw seven stars of the heaven bound together in it, like great mountains and burning with fire.
4Then I said: "For what sin are they bound, and on what account have they been cast in hither?"
5Then said Uriel, one of the holy angels, who was with me, and was chief over them, and said: "Enoch, why dost thou ask, and why art thou eager for the truth? 6These are of the number of the stars of heaven, which have transgressed the commandment of the Lord, and are bound here till ten thousand years, the time entailed by their sins, are consummated."
7And from thence I went to another place, which was still more horrible than the former, and I saw a horrible thing: a great fire there which burnt and blazed, and the place was cleft as far as the abyss, being full of great descending columns of fire: neither its extent or magnitude could I see, nor could I conjecture.
8Then I said: "How fearful is the place and how terrible to look upon!"
9Then Uriel answered me, one of the holy angels who was with me, and said unto me: "Enoch, why hast thou such fear and affright?"
And I answered: "Because of this fearful place, and because of the spectacle of the pain."
10And he said unto me: "This place is the prison of the angels, and here they will be imprisoned for ever."
Enoch 69:
The Son of Man is Seated on His Glorious Throne
26And there was great joy amongst them,
And they blessed and glorified and extolled
Because the name of that Son of Man had been revealed unto them.
27And he sat on the throne of his glory,
And the sum of judgement was given unto the Son of Man,
And he caused the sinners to pass away and be destroyed from off the face of the earth,
And those who have led the world astray.
28With chains shall they be bound,
And in their assemblage-place of destruction shall they be imprisoned,
And all their works vanish from the face of the earth.
29And from henceforth there shall be nothing corruptible;
For that Son of Man has appeared,
And has seated himself on the throne of his glory,
And all evil shall pass away before his face,
And the word of that Son of Man shall go forth
And be strong before the Lord of Spirits.
This is the third Parable of Enoch

The Book of Enoch, Translated by Robert H. Charles, 1912Time-Capsule to the Last Generation
108 Another book which Enoch wrote for his son Methuselah and for those who will come after him, and keep the law in the last days.
2Ye who have done good shall wait for those days till an end is made of those who work evil, and an end of the might of the transgressors. 3And wait ye indeed till sin has passed away, for their names shall be blotted out of the book of life and out of the holy books, and their seed shall be destroyed for ever, and their spirits shall be slain, and they shall cry and make lamentation in a place that is a chaotic wilderness, and in the fire shall they burn; for there is no earth there.
4And I saw there something like an invisible cloud; for by reason of its depth I could not look over, and I saw a flame of fire blazing brightly, and things like shining mountains circling and sweeping to and fro.
5And I asked one of the holy angels who was with me and said unto him: "What is this shining thing? for it is not a heaven but only the flame of a blazing fire, and the voice of weeping and crying and lamentation and strong pain."
6And he said unto me: "This place which thou seest- here are cast the spirits of sinners and blasphemers, and of those who work wickedness, and of those who pervert everything that the Lord hath spoken through the mouth of the prophets- even the things that shall be.
7"For some of them are written and inscribed above in the heaven, in order that the angels may read them and know that which shall befall the sinners, and the spirits of the humble, and of those who have afflicted their bodies, and been recompensed by God; and of those who have been put to shame by wicked men: 8Who love God and loved neither gold nor silver nor any of the good things which are in the world, but gave over their bodies to torture. 9Who, since they came into being, longed not after earthly food, but regarded everything as a passing breath, and lived accordingly, and the Lord tried them much, and their spirits were found pure so that they should bless His name.
10"And all the blessings destined for them I have recounted in the books. And He hath assigned them their recompense, because they have been found to be such as loved heaven more than their life in the world, and though they were trodden under foot of wicked men, and experienced abuse and reviling from them and were put to shame, yet they blessed Me.
11"And now I will summon the spirits of the good who belong to the generation of light, and I will transform those who were born in darkness, who in the flesh were not recompensed with such honour as their faithfulness deserved. 12And I will bring forth in shining light those who have loved My holy name, and I will seat each on the throne of his honour. 13And they shall be resplendent for times without number; for righteousness is the judgement of God; for to the faithful He will give faithfulness in the habitation of upright paths.
14"And they shall see those who were born in darkness led into darkness, while the righteous shall be resplendent. 15And the sinners shall cry aloud and see them resplendent, and they indeed will go where days and seasons are prescribed for them."
 
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OrthodoxyUSA

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In The Orthodox Church sheol is the place of the dead.

In other word for us... 'descended to the dead' is a valid translation of 'descended to sheol'.

Nothing more.

God be gracious to me a sinner.
 
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Clare73

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In the OT, Sheol was the holding place of the dead.

It had two parts, Paradise for the righteous, and Hades for the wicked.

Hell is not a Hellenistic idea, it is the translation of Gehenna, revealed by Jesus as eternal fire.
 
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PaladinValer

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In the Old Testament, there is no Hell, only Sheol, which is where EVERYONE who dies goes, not just righteous people. In the New Testament you have Hell. Apparently the ancient Jews were influenced by the Greek view of the afterlife during the Hellenistic Age. The Greeks had a realm for the good (the Elysian fields) and a realm for the bad (Tartarus) unlike the ancient Jews.

So...for a while this has been a big problem for me. It seems like a flaw in the internal consistency of the Bible. How do you explain it?

Your concept of it is just fine.

It is what Jesus Himself appeared to believe and to teach from with the Parable of Dives and Lazarus. His view of what sheol was like exactly echos the going theology of the time.

The souls of all of us will depart to sheol while our body returns to the dust. They will return to our reconstituted and healed (and, if to be found righteous, perfected and transfigured) same bodies, immortalized as well, upon Christ's Second Advent. In sheol, we will have particular judgment and experience a foretaste of heaven or hell.
 
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PROPHECYKID

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Hell was certainly an Idea created by the Catholic Church to the meaning of Sheol.

They created this unseen meaning i.e. Hell confusing the real meaning which was common man's grave, is the real truth of the matter.

The Hebrew word she’ohl′ occurs 65 times in the Masoretic text. In the King James Version, it is translated 31 times as “hell,” 31 times as “grave,” and 3 times as “pit.” The Catholic Douay Version rendered the word 63 times as “hell,” once as “pit,” and once as “death.”

In other words it mean grave which, we go to when we die.

(Romans 6:7) 7 For he who has died has been acquitted from [his] sin.

No such place of fiery torment it's a lie.

:thumbsup:
 
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PaladinValer

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Hell was certainly an Idea created by the Catholic Church to the meaning of Sheol.

Wrong.

The Vatican Catholic concept of sheol is purgatory, not hell.

No such place of fiery torment it's a lie.

Not a historic, orthodox, authentic Christian thing to think.
 
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Gnarwhal

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Sheol and the Lake of Fire were already described totally by "Enoch the prophet, the seventh from Adam",

To quote the late Ronald Reagan, "there you go again!"
 
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yeshuasavedme

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In the OT, Sheol was the holding place of the dead.

It had two parts, Paradise for the righteous, and Hades for the wicked.

Hell is not a Hellenistic idea, it is the translation of Gehenna, revealed by Jesus as eternal fire.
Paradise was not and is not in Sheol beneath earth in the OT or in the NT or in any revelation of God the Word.

Paradise is in the third heaven, in Eden, the Mount of God above. It is where Adam got cast down and out of at the fall, when he was taken there and placed in the Garden of God/Paradise, of Mount Eden in the stretched out heavens which were stretched out from earth between the divided in two waters on day 2 of creation.
 
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football5680

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Hell was certainly an Idea created by the Catholic Church to the meaning of Sheol.

They created this unseen meaning i.e. Hell confusing the real meaning which was common man's grave, is the real truth of the matter.
Any evidence? No.

The Hebrew word she’ohl′ occurs 65 times in the Masoretic text. In the King James Version, it is translated 31 times as “hell,” 31 times as “grave,” and 3 times as “pit.” The Catholic Douay Version rendered the word 63 times as “hell,” once as “pit,” and once as “death.”

In other words it mean grave which, we go to when we die.

(Romans 6:7) 7 For he who has died has been acquitted from [his] sin.

No such place of fiery torment it's a lie.
Read Romans 6:7 in context.

For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin-because anyone who has died has been set free from sin. Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. (Romans 6:6-8)

As you can see it doesn't say what you want it to. Paul speaking to Christians who are alive and able to read what he wrote are being spoken about. We are still living today and it applies to us as well.

If you don't want to believe what Jesus said then that is up to you. Catholics will believe what Jesus said and if you want to say Jesus invented this false belief then that is your opinion. I would never speak blasphemy like that.

And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” (Matthew 25:46)

And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire. And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into hell. And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, (Mark 9:43-48)

And throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Matthew 13:50)

For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment; (2 Peter 2:4)

"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. (Matthew 25:41)

And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.” (Revelation 14:11)

And in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side (Luke 16:23)

Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire (Jude 1:7)

I could go on and on but my point has been made. I will continue to believe what Christians have believed for 2000 years, you can have your own new age ideas.
 
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Clare73

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Paradise was not and is not in Sheol beneath earth in the OT or in the NT or in any revelation of God the Word.
I didn't say it was beneath the earth.

I said Sheol was the holding place of the dead, which does not preclude separate locations for Hades and Paradise.

Paradise is in the third heaven, in Eden, the Mount of God above.
Actually, it is the place of bliss and rest between death and resurrection (Lk 16:22, Abraham's side, bosom;
2 Co 5:2, 8; Php 1:23, our heavenly dwelling).

It is where Adam got cast down and out of at the fall, when he was taken there and placed in the Garden of God/Paradise, of Mount Eden in the stretched out heavens which were stretched out from earth between the divided in two waters on day 2 of creation.
Do you mean Satan there?

Adam was cast down out of Paradise, when he was taken there and placed in the Garden of God/Paradise, of Mount Eden?
 
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Neither one is a 'place', form the Orthodox perspective.

Speaking of it as one place with an area for good and bad was a metaphor used by one of the AnteNicene ECF's in an attempt at an explanation. It's a weak understanding, not totally without merrit, but leaves so much confusion to be explained...

God be gracious to me a sinner.
 
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yeshuasavedme

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I didn't say it was beneath the earth.

I said Sheol was the holding place of the dead, which does not preclude separate locations for Hades and Paradise.


Actually, it is the place of bliss and rest between death and resurrection (Lk 16:22, Abraham's side, bosom;
2 Co 5:2, 8; Php 1:23, our heavenly dwelling).


Do you mean Satan there?

Adam was cast down out of Paradise, when he was taken there and placed in the Garden of God/Paradise, of Mount Eden?

Paradise was never the holding place for the dead, ever! Adam was cast out of Paradise and never could go back! -and certainly not "by death"! Paradise is where the Tree of Life is.
The Ramson price paid by the Son of Man come in flesh is the only way back! And the first soul promised entry back at his death was the thief on the cross, who died after the Ranson was paid ["It is finished"].

Jesus promised the repentant thief that "Today, you will be with Me in Paradise", in that the Son of Man never left Paradise when He extended His Living Spirit into the New Man body creation so as to come incarnate, as the Redeemer/Kinsman.

In John 3, Jesus said "no man has ascended into heaven but He that is come down from heaven", and so, Christ in flesh was still Christ in Paradise.

Christ incarnate did not cease being the Son of Man/God the Word, on the throne in heaven, though He put on the Garment of Salvation/Yeshua [Isaiah 59] in which He is our Firstborn and everlasting Father [Isaiah 9:6] of the New Man creation human being flesh; and in that flesh He is glorified and our forever living advocate sitting in the Glory above, on His throne, as our Everlasting Father of the human being kind, representing us whom He adopted, above.

Jhn 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.


Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

2Cr 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; such an one caught up to the third heaven.

2Cr 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.


Paradise is in the third heaven, in Mount Eden above, and only Adam got cast down and we are the seed of Adam and were in his loins and every one of us lost son-ship in the fall and every one of us needs to be ransomed back, for the Glory to indwell us, which was the purpose God made us male and female and commanded to multiply the kind by the seed within, so that He would get sons of God of the human being kind for the Glory to indwell as a "house not made with hands"..
Satan has never been cast down from Mount Eden and remains in heaven with his host of evil spirits who are all created satans and were made to do what they do; and their reward is to torment and afflict and punish the fallen angels and the resurrected Adam persons who never repented and never sought the Light in which all in Adam seed come to fruit are born, and so, then, whose names were/shall be blotted out of the Book of Life.

In Psalm 82, the original Hebrew states a warning to the congregation of the ben elohym/sons of God who are set over earth as "judges/rulers/Watchers" who do not do their proper jobs, that they are in danger of dying and being cast down "like Adam, one Prince".
-prove it for yourself and go use the concordance and see this truth. It is Adam who was in Eden above and got cast down at the fall; and we are all "Adam" as to our kind. We are "one" spirit, and what our father Adam is, we are, until we are adopted into the Living Spirit who is come in flesh as our Kinsman/Redeemer and who is the Son of Man on the throne in heaven, in Paradise.
 
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Lion King

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I'm inclined to agree with Yeshuasavedme, Paradise of God is not a holding place for the dead. Never was, never will be. Paradise is synonymous with third heaven, the dwelling place of God. Never understood why some people claim that Sheol is divided into Paradise and Hades, when Scriptures clearly contradict with such claims; third heaven/Paradise was never part of Sheol.

Imo, Paradise of God is our final destination. When a righteous person dies, they descend to Sheol/Hades to await the resurrection of the dead. It is only after the resurrection that all who belong to Christ will be admitted into Paradise also known as New Jerusalem- the eternal city of God.
 
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GratiaCorpusChristi

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In the Old Testament, there is no Hell, only Sheol, which is where EVERYONE who dies goes, not just righteous people. In the New Testament you have Hell. Apparently the ancient Jews were influenced by the Greek view of the afterlife during the Hellenistic Age. The Greeks had a realm for the good (the Elysian fields) and a realm for the bad (Tartarus) unlike the ancient Jews.

So...for a while this has been a big problem for me. It seems like a flaw in the internal consistency of the Bible. How do you explain it?

In the beginning, there was just Sheol: the ground, where dead bodies went. Once Jewish prophets began to envision a final resurrection, they started considering the possibility of an intermediate state, and Sheol extended from the place where dead bodies go to the place where a people's shade/spirit/breath/soul goes. The person's shade, however, was in merely a dreamlike state, and not really conscious.

So:

Sheol 1.0 = the dirt, where the dead literally go

Sheol 2.0 = general realm of the dead, where people's shades exist in a dreamlike semi-conscious state

After this development came the Jewish encounter with Hellenism in the wake of Alexander's conquests in the 320s BCE. The Greeks believed in Hades, which was pretty much exactly like Sheol 2.0 (a realm of the dead with a semi-conscious dreamlike existence).

Hades = Sheol 2.0

And, importantly, the New Testament uses Hades to translate the Hebrew term Sheol. Hades, in turn, typically gets translated "hell" in the New Testament.

However, the Greeks also believed that within Hades there were more conscious states, especially at the end of the spectrum: the Elysian Fields, where the very just and pious dead, and very heroic dead, are conscious in order to receive their reward, and Tartarus, where the very unjust and impious dead, as well as the very cowardly and notorious traitors, are conscious in order to be punished. Strands of Judaism picked up on this and it's to that model that Jesus is referring in the parable of Lazarus and Dives.

So:

Elysian Fields/Abraham's bosom = that part of Hades/Sheol where the very righteous are awake in order to enjoy their reward

Tartarus/Gehenna = the part of Hades/Sheol where the very wicked are awake in order to receive punishment

Then, early Christianity (beginning with Paul?) developed the idea that there isn't one realm of the dead with spheres or modes (conscious in Tartarus, generalized dreaming dead, and conscious in Elysium), but two: just heaven and hell, with everyone awake to enjoy or suffer in the intermediate period between death and resurrection.

---------------------------------------------------------

Now, in order to make sense of this historical development of apocalyptic eschatology, early Christian theologians essentially affirmed that the threefold model of a common afterlife, with soul sleep for most, was the case before crucifixion, resurrection and ascension of Christ. Then, after the crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension, Christ took up his role as judge and priest in the heavens and so raised the moderately righteous from soul sleep and had them join the consciously righteous in Abraham's Bosom in heaven to participate in the heavenly worship in God's throne room; meanwhile, the moderately wicked were also awakened and sent to join their fellow evildoers in Tartarus. In essence, all of Sheol/Hades then became "hell," hence our translations.

Hope that helps.
 
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Lion King

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Tartarus/Gehenna = the part of Hades/Sheol where the very wicked are awake in order to receive punishment

Tartarus is not Gehenna. Imo, Tartarus is the bottomless pit (Abyss) where the angels who left their first estates are chained for Gehenna/Lake of fire.
 
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yeshuasavedme

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In the beginning, there was just Sheol: the ground, where dead bodies went. .
In the beginning, there was the belly/the hollow of the earth, where the soul of Abel cried out loudly and frantically to YHWH from, for the avenging of His blood. Genesis 4.

The "voice of Abel's blood" is "the voice of Abel's soul". The soul that departs the dead flesh body is the person, and the life, and the blood. Abel went to "the belly of the earth =Sheol ="the hollows" and cried out to YHWH from there for the avenging of his blood.

Corruption entered the creation at the fall, and corruption is the dust the satan/serpent "eats", since the curse.
 
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yeshuasavedme

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The Greeks got their doctrines from captured nations, having formerly been just a small tribe of shepherds with no wisdom collections or doctrines of their own. When they conquered the Holy Land, they got the doctrine of Hades from the Israelites true story of the nuking of Sodom and Gomorrah. The "well spring of judgment" which is Hades, in Genesis 14 is the example of everlasting fire and brimstone.

The word Hades is transliterated from the Hebrew "qadesh" which was the name given to the well spring of God's judgment. It means "holy" in an evil sense, like "dedicated male temple prostitutes". The gutteral "q" becomes the gutteral "K", becomes the gutteral "H", and the Kadesh becomes Hades.
 
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