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So, if someone is dying and cannot be baptized he is going to Hell?
The baptism of desire? I don't remember seeing that one in the Bible.Of course not. The thief on cross was baptized with the baptism of desire just as a person who convert and was dying and could not be water baptized.
If someone is dying and cannot be baptized in water he can't be saved?Do you not have faith in God?
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Also, if we are going to play the "what if" game, then let me throw this thought back at you for consideration.
What if someone dies before they can repent? Luke 13:3
What if someone dies before they can confess? Matthew 10:32-33; Acts 8:36-39
What if someone dies before they can believe? Hebrews 11:6
What if someone dies before they get the chance to hear the word? Romans 10:17
We need to get out of the whole "what if" shenanigans because those don't work here.
If someone is dying and cannot be baptized in water he can't be saved?
Romans 10:9-10 If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Do you not have faith in God?
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Also, if we are going to play the "what if" game, then let me throw this thought back at you for consideration.
What if someone dies before they can repent? Luke 13:3
What if someone dies before they can confess? Matthew 10:32-33; Acts 8:36-39
What if someone dies before they can believe? Hebrews 11:6
What if someone dies before they get the chance to hear the word? Romans 10:17
We need to get out of the whole "what if" shenanigans because those don't work here.
Of course not. The thief on cross was baptized with the baptism of desire just as a person who convert and was dying and could not be water baptized.
It is the Blood of Jesus that cleanses us from our sins. Not water baptism. His Blood was already shed when He was speaking to the thief on the cross.Consider this for a moment:
Christs death would bring the new covenant right?
Was Christ dead when he was talking to the thief, or was he still alive?
And if Christ was still alive, talking to the thief, then was there a new covenant BEFORE Christ died or after?
Or, because Christ was STILL ALIVE, and he did NOT die yet to start the new covenant, that maybe they were still under the old laws/covenant?
Friend, Christ didnt die yet when he was talking to the thief and therefore the new covenant had not begun.
In conclusion, Christ had the power to forgive the thief under OLD TESTAMENT laws/covenant. That is why the thief didnt need to be baptized.
After Christs death, burial, and resurrection 1 Corinthians 15:1-5, now you need to be baptized Romans 6:1-5, to obtain forgiveness of sins and the Holy Spirit Acts 2:38, to put on Christ Galatians 3:27, into water 1 Peter 3:20-21, like the Ethiopian eunuch Acts 8:36-39.
And that would have been the perfect time to say "he that is not baptized shall be damned". He didn't.6-Did you forget that Mark 16:16 states," He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."?
It is the Blood of Jesus that cleanses us from our sins. Not water baptism. His Blood was already shed when He was speaking to the thief on the cross.
1 John 1:7-9
7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
...
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
And that would have been the perfect time to say "he that is not baptized shall be damned". He didn't.
I've been baptized in Jesus' Name as the Apostles did. Not to be saved, but to obey God. How about you?Obviously if you do not believe, you wont seek baptism. Sorry, you didnt prove anything.
You don't get what 1 Peter 3:21 says do you?
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ
It's not the water, and the water alone, that saves you. It is the obedience to His commands from what scripture has told us to do.
Acts 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
What don't you understand about that verse?
Acts 2:41
Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
You still have yet to answer my questions. I find that a bit disappointing, because you have no clue how to still believe your doctrine and refute the scriptures given to you.
How do you put on Christ? Galatians 3:27
How do you enter the kingdom? John 3:3 and 5
How do you receive remission of sins and receive the holy spirit? Acts 2:38
How do you get around verses like Romans 6:1-5 combine with 1 Corinthians 15:1-5
You have no answer for Mark 16:16? believe AND be baptized you will be saved
How do you make a disciple? Matthew 28:19-20
If you cannot confront these verses, and you just want to keep spinning out, then I can have nothing more to say.
Yea, for people who are Christians already. Not for those who are outside of Christ.
You didn't answer my simple question.You don't get what 1 Peter 3:21 says do you?
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ
It's not the water, and the water alone, that saves you. It is the obedience to His commands from what scripture has told us to do.
Acts 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
What don't you understand about that verse?
Acts 2:41
Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
You still have yet to answer my questions. I find that a bit disappointing, because you have no clue how to still believe your doctrine and refute the scriptures given to you.
How do you put on Christ? Galatians 3:27
How do you enter the kingdom? John 3:3 and 5
How do you receive remission of sins and receive the holy spirit? Acts 2:38
How do you get around verses like Romans 6:1-5 combine with 1 Corinthians 15:1-5
You have no answer for Mark 16:16? believe AND be baptized you will be saved
How do you make a disciple? Matthew 28:19-20
If you cannot confront these verses, and you just want to keep spinning out, then I can have nothing more to say.
Yea, for people who are Christians already. Not for those who are outside of Christ.
Hi. I've never had any formal Bible study training... and that's probably part of the problem. I was raised Southern Baptist, but am now getting myself all twisted in knots after reading Church history and some of the Church Fathers and trying to read Scripture with an open mind...
I do believe that the Bible is supposed to be our ultimate authority, but I'm really getting frustrated at all the places where the right way to understand doctrine doesn't seem clear. I know what Baptists have traditionally taught and believed -- but the early Church Fathers seem in many places to teach something different, and I'm finding the Bible seems to teach something different -- that is, unless I begin with Baptist assumptions.
It seems like everybody has to begin with a certain set of assumptions -- or else there's no way to make sense of all this at all.For an example of just one knot I am twisting myself in, one I was thinking about earlier today -- What is actually required for salvation? Rather than being simple and clear like I've always been told this is supposed to be, I find that the Bible isn't very clear at all -- unless I begin from a certain assumption (sola fide for example) and subject everything else I read to that.
And I could go on. There are other passages that don't seem to line up with the rest of these. And I'm just making myself miserable trying to figure out how all this sorts out.
- Paul talks about being "saved by grace through faith" and "not a result of works" in Ephesians 2:8-10. Protestants take this to be a statement of sola fide, justification by faith alone.
- James says "a person is justified by works and not by faith alone" (James 2:24). And yes I know how Protestants usually explicate this in light of Paul -- but why do we prioritize Paul over James? How is that decision made?
- Jesus makes statements that seem to pretty clearly state there are things we have to do (works?) in order to be saved. For example, He says "unless one is both of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God" (John 3:5), traditionally understood to refer to baptism; He says "unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you" (John 6:53), traditionally held to refer to the Lord's Supper. And yes, Baptists say neither one refers to either, but they still both apparently refer to something we have to do.
- Jesus also gives parables of the Judgment indicating we will be judged according to our works (Matt 25:31-46). Paul also says pretty plainly that God "will render to each one according to his works" (Roman 2:6) -- shortly before the passages where Protestants find the boldest proclamations of sola fide. How does that square?
People tell me in sola fide threads to "use Scripture to interpret Scripture" -- but I don't see how that works at all, when these Scriptures appear to be saying completely different things. It feels like trying to solve a mathematical proof -- I feel like everything should make sense, if only I know the theorem to start with. But I feel like, in my mind, I have no idea where to begin... People tell me to keep studying, that if I study more, it will all begin to make sense... but it feels like the more I study, the less anything makes sense.
And yes I know that the Catholic Church has a magisterium that "fixes everything"! But is that the only answer? I know that the Church Fathers give guidance in how they, the Early Church, understood things -- and that helps a lot. But should I prioritize their interpretations? How do Protestants make it work at all?
You didn't answer my simple question.
I've been baptized in Jesus' Name as the Apostles did. Not to be saved, but to obey God. How about you?
Do you reject Jesus' Blood atonement for our sins?Can you elaborate for me please? Because that statement is pretty contradicting.
I got baptized because it is the only way I can obtain remission for sins. Acts 2:38
Fact is, the thief was not baptized but he was saved.I did, and I told you I did. I answered you with a question. Actually, lots of questions. And on top of that I provided scripture, of which you have been found lacking.
The thief on the cross was under the OT mosaic law, not the NT Covenant. Christ wasn't dead yet for the NT covenant to begin.
Do you reject Jesus' Blood atonement for our sins?
Lev 17:11 It is the blood that makes atonement for the soul.
Fact is, the thief was not baptized but he was saved.
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