How do we solve.....

LiturgyInDMinor · Jun 18, 2009

How do we solve people just walking away from the church???
This is a modern day phenomenon here. I don't want to hear the same old eschatological stuff about...."it's the end...Jesus is coming soon"...cause I don't believe that.
Is this a generational thing containing hurt and flipancey(sp?) on both sides? Is it principals going down the toilet?
Are all of these people not saved and just realizing this fact?? Are they just disillusioned with the church??? Can we blame the media for some of this? Can we blame politicians and government for people actually leaving the church?
Can we blame anyone?

Big question..what's going on here people?

Thoughts?

MatthewDiscipleofGod · Jun 18, 2009

I don't think there is just 1 answer. I have read many recent books and articles about the subject and think most of them don't get it. I think a lot of it is that most of the people that say they are Christian but have left the church are not saved to begin with. They have invented their own religion. Of course there are other answers out there. Some really can't find a solid church in their area for example. Also, don't trust any surveys you ready. You would think that half the population is Christian by some statistics. I would say 15% being Christian is a stretch. Many that claim to be Christian can't even tell you the correct answer to the question why a person goes to Heaven. That, and they live just as the world lives. With no real fruit to show.

LiturgyInDMinor · Jun 18, 2009

I agree, perhaps a bit more than 15% in the western world are actually christian IMHO.
I believe a lot of people "join a religion", ie go to a church...for the sake of it. To somehow be right with God...and not knowing anything else. As a former Roman Catholic that is very very common...the attitude of "we go to church, so we are good with God" type attitude.
I know that works well in the RCC, BUT in protestant churches, where actual doctrine and consequence is preached heavily, I see that being a big reason why people drop out of church.
There is other things though...I am curious to know why seemingly solid christians just decide to stop going. It is truely happening around us, and I cannot accept that all of those people are not saved.
It's not that they don't stop their faith...but I know people that just say "church isn't for us anymore"...but hold near and dear to solid Truth.
I know I've had my doubts about leaving my current church because my pastor is semi-dispensational...that is just an example...are people being TOO picky about doctrine to a point to where they just cannot find a church that matches them exactly doctrinally???? I am not leaving my current church because I don't want to base my pick of a church on eschatological ground(soteriological only )
Just some thoughts.

Thanks for the input.

MatthewDiscipleofGod · Jun 18, 2009

NoRaptureBaptist said:
.There is other things though...I am curious to know why seemingly solid christians just decide to stop going. It is truely happening around us, and I cannot accept that all of those people are not saved. It's not that they don't stop their faith...but I know people that just say "church isn't for us anymore"...but hold near and dear to solid Truth.

I personally know of no solid Christians that just stopped going to church. Maybe switched churches but that is it. I take it you know some? Would you be able to, in a respectable manner, be able to ask them about it to see what they say? Would they still say they believe the Bible and that God is the only way to Heaven? Has maybe sin gotten a hold of them and pulled them away from fellowship with other Christians? Do they think church is just dull and irrelevant? Just curious, as it sounds you are, to what is going on in a person's mind in this situation.

the particular baptist · Jun 18, 2009

Its the inevitable consequence of 100 years of Finney-ism/Decisional regeneration.

The glorious doctrine of regeneration has been replaced by decisionism; agree to certain truths of christianity ie mental ascent, and repeat a superstitious prayer, and people are declared saved.

This is how churches have been and are being built for the last century, on the bones of unconverted people that are nearly indistinguishable from the world with the exception of a suit and tie on Sundays.

Thus the doctrine of the carnal christian, to explain away the worldliness and ungodliness in professing christians, nevermind that Scripture teaches no such thing. I wonder where there is such a thing as a carnal christian in Matthew 7 or 1 John.

I am not saying believers dont sin, we sin, but you know what im talking about.

God have mercy on us.

LiturgyInDMinor · Jun 18, 2009

True...Finney did nothing for the faith IMHO...but there has to be more to it. I know today that Word of Faith is popular on TV, and thus invades our homes with falseness....and others as well...all based on decisional salvation. The typical fluffy bunny stuff from Olsteen and the like is also to blame...but the numbers are just astounding if you think about it....it can't all be from non-orthodox christianity can it?
I'm not convinced that that is the basis of this trend.

the particular baptist · Jun 18, 2009

Let me know when you find something that has had a larger impact on modern day evangelicalism than Finney

LiturgyInDMinor · Jun 18, 2009

thefivesolas said:
Let me know when you find something that has had a larger impact on modern day evangelicalism than Finney

The Word of Faith movement...just see the statistics(google them ) in Southeast asia and africa concerning the spread of this stuff; AND especially here in the United States.

the particular baptist · Jun 18, 2009

NoRaptureBaptist said:
The Word of Faith movement...just see the statistics(google them ) in Southeast asia and africa concerning the spread of this stuff; AND especially here in the United States.

Do some digging and you'll find the WoF coming out of pentecostalism. Pentecostalism started with the Azusa Street Revival, the Azusa revival was birthed by the Holiness/Perfectionist movement which was birthed during the Finney crusades. Gotcha !

LiturgyInDMinor · Jun 18, 2009

OH trust me I know the history from Asuza onward...although I don't agree with Penteconstalism(Oneness pentecostalism is just heresy) I cannot say that an Assemblies of God church is "wrong" for a believer that chooses that denom. I am also not the type to label heresy on some things though to just to clarify. In otherwords I don't think Arminianism is heresy, but it's wrong of course.

Just MHO.

Thanks for listening.

Hentenza · Jun 18, 2009

Nah!! I don't think Finney had that much to do with it. Personally I am more inclined to believe that the water down theology, feely good sermons, and generally getting away from a solid bible teaching belief are the main culprits. We have many churches, many Baptists, that are no longer expository. It is a fact that the less people know the bible the less they are bound to stay Christians. There are a bunch of baby(marginal) Christians out there.

TimRout · Jun 18, 2009

Who saves? God saves.

How does God save? By the power of His Spirit through the preaching of His gospel.

Do genuinely saved people leave a theologically solid, Bible preaching church for anything other than the most unavoidable of reasons? I doubt it.

I think we need to stop worrying so much about growing our happy little churches into flashy big churches, and simply focus on the preaching of the Word. Sound theology is a sweet attraction to the elect, and an able repellent to the reprobate.

So what about people leaving our churches? Let them go! Chances are they never belonged to us in the first place. I am DONE trying to grow my church. It's far more biblical to spend the time growing God's people through training in the Word.

LiturgyInDMinor · Jun 18, 2009

Hentenza said:
Nah!! I don't think Finney had that much to do with it. Personally I am more inclined to believe that the water down theology, feely good sermons, and generally getting away from a solid bible teaching belief are the main culprits. We have many churches, many Baptists, that are no longer expository. It is a fact that the less people know the bible the less they are bound to stay Christians. There are a bunch of baby(marginal) Christians out there.

I see what you are saying...too much milk, not enough meat eh?
Agreed..but how can it be stopped? I'll call my pastor in 1 second during a service if I feel he's being seeker-sensitive or preaching a bunch of milk on Sunday for sure...why can we all talk about this and know some of the obvious causes, yet it still happens? Are solidly biblically bound christians somewhat to blame?

Good words.

the particular baptist · Jun 18, 2009

TimRout said:
Who saves? God saves.

How does God save? By the power of His Spirit through the preaching of His gospel.

Do genuinely saved people leave a theologically solid, Bible preaching church for anything other than the most unavoidable of reasons? I doubt it.

I think we need to stop worrying so much about growing our happy little churches into flashy big churches, and simply focus on the preaching of the Word. Sound theology is a sweet attraction to the elect, and an able repellent to the reprobate.

So what about people leaving our churches? Let them go! Chances are they never belonged to us in the first place. I am DONE trying to grow my church. It's far more biblical to spend the time growing God's people through training in the Word.

What he said ^

LiturgyInDMinor · Jun 18, 2009

TimRout said:
Who saves? God saves.

How does God save? By the power of His Spirit through the preaching of His gospel.

Do genuinely saved people leave a theologically solid, Bible preaching church for anything other than the most unavoidable of reasons? I doubt it.

I think we need to stop worrying so much about growing our happy little churches into flashy big churches, and simply focus on the preaching of the Word. Sound theology is a sweet attraction to the elect, and an able repellent to the reprobate.

So what about people leaving our churches? Let them go! Chances are they never belonged to us in the first place. I am DONE trying to grow my church. It's far more biblical to spend the time growing God's people through training in the Word.

IMHO it goes beyond this...church growth is all played out...I'm talking about church shrinkage here...and I know for a fact that solid bible believing christians are leaving churches left and right...the saved are leaving for some reason. Don't tell me it's not happening today cause it is....I know people who have done it, and their reasons are very widely varied...from I don't like Calvinism, to I don't like the look of the building to I don't like that the pastor preaches a rapture...all of those reasons, some very petty are not proof of any of them not being "the elect"(meaning some of them don't even know they are "the elect" due to ignorance of the doctrines of Grace) IMHO. It must go way beyond soteriological and eschatological, and even ecclisiastical boundaries here....

LiturgyInDMinor · Jun 18, 2009

BIG DISCLAIMER HERE ON MY PART:

I am NOT nor have I ever been a proponent of the "emergent conversation" or whatever they call it.

LiturgyInDMinor · Jun 18, 2009

Can we blame Satan for the decline in ORTHODOX, ie the correct Way, christianity?

the particular baptist · Jun 18, 2009

Thing is, do they stay gone, Or do they join another fellowship. If they stay gone altogether well thats a significant indicator that they are not drawn to brothers in Christ, and if there is no love for the people of God well, where is there any assurance in that that theyre saved ?

Hentenza · Jun 18, 2009

NoRaptureBaptist said:
I see what you are saying...too much milk, not enough meat eh?
Agreed..but how can it be stopped? I'll call my pastor in 1 second during a service if I feel he's being seeker-sensitive or preaching a bunch of milk on Sunday for sure...why can we all talk about this and know some of the obvious causes, yet it still happens? Are solidly biblically bound christians somewhat to blame?

Good words.

Sometimes mature Christians can be an obstacle for those that are learning but I don't think that is the main cause, although it could be A cause. I visit other Baptist churches in my area as part of my deacon ministry and sometimes stay for a service or a teaching. It amazes me how polar opposites some churches can be although both are Baptist. It seems that the churches that are growing, debatable, are those that are indeed seeker sensitive. My church is among a minority in the sense that we only loose 2% of members a year but gain a larger percentage. I credit our pastor's strict expository sermons with educating the congregation and not sugar coating the truth. People are afraid of the truth because it requires a change that quite a few are not willing to make.

LiturgyInDMinor · Jun 18, 2009

Same with my church...my pastor's unwavering reformed viewpoint and expository, verse by verse preaching is a godsend and the main reason I will stick with it despite his teaching of a trival rapture.
I thank God everday that I joined a church, along with my wife(and her kids attend as well) that did not kick out the pastor for being true to the Word of God and has the balls to present it properly.

How do we solve.....

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