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that's a question for them.If the case is so overwhelming that you're willing to go on the verge of calling people on internet message boards heretics, then why are the bishops of the Church not willing to do the same? Why are they not stopping people from teaching evolution? Why are they not insisting on a 7500 year old earth? If the case is so open and shut? Why even do some bishops encourage it?
If the case is so overwhelming that you're willing to go on the verge of calling people on internet message boards heretics, then why are the bishops of the Church not willing to do the same? Why are they not stopping people from teaching evolution? Why are they not insisting on a 7500 year old earth? If the case is so open and shut? Why even do some bishops encourage it?
He didn't say that. He's saying that it's possible for individual bishops to go wrong, and even fall into heresy. Do you deny that possibility? Do you agree that all bishops ought to strive to be careful not to so that?So you think my bishop may be a heretic? He is, uh, the real authority where I am.
I suggest, then, that you cool your jets.
demonstrate that this is anything other than your personal opinion.
I trust these bishops, priests, and theologians as mediators of Orthodox theology and truth more than I trust a couple guys on a message board and Fr Seraphim Rose of blessed memory as mediators of Orthodox tradition.
The reality pertaining to this is that the majority of Church members are not informed by obscure canons, so that the "realtime" effect is that the Church will find her own way through these challenging questions of our time, perhaps giving consideration of such canons.i've already quoted Ecumenical Canons that say otherwise.
Patriarch Alexei II of Moscow
St. Ambrose of Optina
Elder Amphilochios of Patmos
St. Barsanuphius of Optina
Elder Cleopa
Hieromartyr Fr. Daniel Sysoev
Archimandrite Ephraim of Vatopaidi
St. Gabriel Igoshkin (hieroconfessor)
Fr. George Calciu
Dr. George Mantzaridis
Metropolitan Hierotheos Vlachos
Met. Hilarion Alfeyev
St. Hilarion Troitsky (Abp. of Verey, heiromartyr)
Abp. Iakovos (Coucouzis)
St. Ignatius Brianchaninov
I. M. Kontzevitch
Schema-Abbot John (Alekseyev), Elder of Valaam
St. John of Kronstadt,
Elder Joseph the Hesychast.
St. Justin Popovich
St. Luke of Simferopol
Archimandrite Naum (elder of Trinity-St. Sergius Lavra)
St. Nektarios
St. Nicholas Pokrovsky
St. Nikolai Velimirovich
St. Paisios
Elder Paisius (Olaru) of Sihastira and Sihla
St. Paul Andreyev (Hiermoartyr)
Patriarch Pavle
Fr. Philotheos Zervakos
St. Sebastian Dabovich
St. Silouan
Fr. Sophrony
St. Thaddeus Uspensky (Abp. of Tver, hieromartyr)
St. Theophan the Recluse
St. Varlaam Nikol’sky (hieromartyr)
St. Vladimir Bogoyavlensky (Met. of Kiev and Gallich, hieromartyr of Bolshevik Yoke)
Vladimir Lossky
Fr. Zacharias Zachariou
Excellent arguing points. I absolutely agree that the OT anthropomorphisms of God are figurative ways of speaking of immaterial energies, though what we can say about immaterial energies and how they interact in the realm of created matter is likely the stuff of much discourse. My tendency is to try to see Christ in every verse of Scripture, so I will make the connection that we can speak anthropomorphically about God because God can reside with us as one of us, a man, which is realized in Christ. I also tend to avoid talking about OT language as figurative, in here, in order to avoid being accused of teaching that everything in the OT is to be held to be mere allegory. That's all.absolutely 100% not true. read St. John of Damascus -- OT anthropomorphisms of God are symbolic of His immaterial energies.
Octoechos (Tone 4, Sunday Matins, Canon to the Theotokos, Ode 8, Troparion): “In the tent Abraham saw the mystery that is in you, O Mother of God; for he received your Son fleshless."
if Christ is incarnate from before the ages, that means human nature is timeless. only that which is Uncreated is timeless, and that which is Uncreated is Divine. if Christ is timelessly incarnate then human nature is Divine and incapable of falling and in no need of redemption.
Do you really believe that a man rose from the dead?Do you really believe Noah got every species of animal on the Ark?
The main problem I have with your ideas, TF, is that they are YOUR ideas. They weave a view of Creation and the Incarnation rather than receive the view we ought to have. And the upshot of it is that, going from your view, we can't really know anything. You take agnosticism, a good thing in its place, and make it an overarching principle that effectively denies the interpretations hitherto agreed on. And for what? I can't see any other purpose except the desire for synthesis: to accept that what the world taught us is just as true as what the fathers teach.Excellent arguing points. I absolutely agree that the OT anthropomorphisms of God are figurative ways of speaking of immaterial energies, though what we can say about immaterial energies and how they interact in the realm of created matter is likely the stuff of much discourse. My tendency is to try to see Christ in every verse of Scripture, so I will make the connection that we can speak anthropomorphically about God because God can reside with us as one of us, a man, which is realized in Christ. I also tend to avoid talking about OT language as figurative, in here, in order to avoid being accused of teaching that everything in the OT is to be held to be mere allegory. That's all.
I did not mean to say that Christ is Incarnate before the ages (even though Christ is said by us to be "boundless") I mean that the Incarnation, the Death of Christ, and Paradise (where occurred the fall of man) are key points of intersection between the Eternal realm (Heaven -- the timeless abode of God) and the horizontal time line that exists with Creation, beginning to end, causing these to be Mysteries with consequences far beyond out ability to comprehend. We may have theories of Creation, of the Paradise where occurred the fall, of Redemption, (theories about how these work) but these are merely theories, because as Mysteries, they defy cognitive circumspection.
Note that a point on the horizontal axis of a chronological timeline where heaven (figuratively seen as a vertical line coming from above) Mysteriously intersects it, takes the form of a cross. Is it any surprise to us that the cross is the symbol of Christ's death, having been the instrument used? Which is understood to be the exact point in time where God (Paradise) is reconnected to Creation by the Atoning Sacrifice? And yet no one can define how the death of Christ redeems. Anselm of Canterbury tried, and ended up producing an idol, because he would not respect the great mysteries in reverent awe and silence, having preferred to explain the inexplicable.
My suggestion is this: we cannot comprehend the great Mystery of Redemption because it is ontologically interwoven with man's fall out of Paradise, Both of these things being beyond cognitive circumspection. And on this note, I am resolved to leave these things in the realm of Mystery, and humbly withdraw from further comments in this thread.
Thanks again for the terrific discussions. It is always a great pleasure to hear from you all, and to know that you're all still doing well enough in your lives to be able to continue commenting in TAW. Glory to Jesus Christ!
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