How do we explain Neanderthals?

YCGP · Oct 4, 2016

I am reading a book called "Sapiens" and it tells the story of humankind. So far most of it has been about neanderthals and the other species of humans who existed at the same time. Eventually, all but one species went extinct and homo sapiens (us) made it to the top of the food chain.

These species, such as neanderthals and homo erectus, existed two million years ago.

What is the Orthodox explanation of this?

rusmeister · Oct 4, 2016

How much faith do you have in your facts? Are they undeniable facts? What are scientific conclusions on the past based on? Can the hypotheses be tested by experiment and observation? Could there ever be unknown variables that would make hash of the assumptions?

YCGP · Oct 4, 2016

rusmeister said:
How much faith do you have in your facts? Are they undeniable facts? What are scientific conclusions on the past based on? Can the hypotheses be tested by experiment and observation? Could there ever be unknown variables that would make hash of the assumptions?

I see. So your strategy is to contest rather than to look at scripture for explanations.

I wish I knew more about science. I wish I knew scientists who would tell me how solid their evidence is.

I am still at the point where I want someone to show me they have disproved the existence of God. Then, despite the 'overwhelming' evidence, I want to believe in God anyway.

gzt · Oct 4, 2016

One possible idea is that Neanderthals are as human as us - after all, we did interbreed and the did have language. In that case, they would simply be another nation that died out, in a sense. You may like to read http://www.biologos.org for their resources on evolution and Christianity. The point of the Genesis narrative is hardly to give a scientific or historical account of the origins of humanity.

gzt · Oct 4, 2016

YCGP said:
I wish I knew more about science. I wish I knew scientists who would tell me how solid their evidence is.

I am still at the point where I want someone to show me they have disproved the existence of God. Then, despite the 'overwhelming' evidence, I want to believe in God anyway.

If you would like, the link I gave above has a lot of resources discussing how science and faith can work together instead of in opposition. They don't go too much into the science of evolution since that's fairly hard to dispute without denying the knowability of pretty much anything about the physical world, which is hardly a satisfying conclusion (it implies a trickster god of sorts, you know?).

EDIT: and therefore, we must accept the fact of evolution as a starting place.

YCGP · Oct 4, 2016

gzt said:
The point of the Genesis narrative is hardly to give a scientific or historical account of the origins of humanity.

What is it for then?

YCGP · Oct 4, 2016

gzt said:
They don't go too much into the science of evolution since that's fairly hard to dispute without denying the knowability of pretty much anything about the physical world, which is hardly a satisfying conclusion (it implies a trickster god of sorts, you know?).

So we just ignore the theory of evolution? How do we do this? What do we tell ourselves?

gzt · Oct 4, 2016

No! We don't ignore it, I'm saying the other people are ignoring it. Which is bad.

YCGP said:
What is it for then?

I encourage you to read the resources at biologos, but a short summary of a couple of the purposes of the Genesis narrative:

1. it retold the pagan mythology of other nations about some kind of cosmic theogony (battle of the gods) that ended in bringing order out of chaos into a non-mythic, non-pagan system with one transcendent God who orders the world
2. In the story, God is arranging the world as His temple with man as His priests serving Him. See Walton's "Lost World of Genesis One" for a lot of discussion of this.

gzt · Oct 4, 2016

For the first point of mine, you may enjoy this set of two scholarly lectures (the lack of the texts under discussion is not a huge problem). They are not Orthodox and not taught from a confessional perspective, but you can draw from t hem. The first is more about Israelite monotheism in contrast with paganism, the second applies that notion to the early chapters of Genesis.

YCGP · Oct 4, 2016

Ok. I read one article on there about Christians dealing with the theory of evolution.

Basically we have unanswered questions and we must practice patience, remain faithful to God, and eventually find our answers. The article suggests that our faith will grow deeper as we learn from this experience.

gzt · Oct 4, 2016

Sure, that's a big part of it. They have some more theological articles, but it's definitely the case that not all the answers are out there and some real theological work needs to be done to incorporate all the scriptural, patristic, historical, archaeological, paleontological, and other scientific information. We can have a model that makes sense of all of it, but only if we work from the standpoint of the fact of evolution. But the short answer is that God really is working in history, God really did make humans in His image and likeness to be priests of creation, God really did become a human being (Jesus Christ) to save us, really did die and rise again, and really did give us His Holy Spirit to lead us to all truth. Nothing that comes out of evolution has anything to say about that.

EDIT: just as the point of Genesis isn't that the earth was created just over 7500 years ago.

YCGP · Oct 4, 2016

Homo sapiens (us) originated far before Adam and Eve, did they not?

I don't understand. Is this human error in the orthodox church?

Or are we patiently waiting for a new discovery and explantion?

YCGP · Oct 4, 2016

We look like a chick, bro!

YCGP · Oct 4, 2016

Jim Langston said:
There is nothing stopping God to make an old tree, and in one non canon source it is said when God created plants an age came forth. I.E. He made old trees... And has nothing to say how much carbon decay would be in a rock God just made.

I recall an ancedote that may, or may not, of happened. It is said einstein have a student a test to take and the student complained that it was the same test they had the year before. Einstein replied yes, but this year all the answers are different.

That's an awesome story about Einstein and his student.

And I like your point about God creating 'old' mountains. He may have done that for any number of reasons.

+++

gzt · Oct 4, 2016

YCGP said:
Homo sapiens (us) originated far before Adam and Eve, did they not?

I don't understand. Is this human error in the orthodox church?

Or are we patiently waiting for a new discovery and explantion?

I don't know if we know that first question.
The second question depends on what you mean - I don't think it's the case that it's the teaching of the Church that we're required to believe there have only been humans for 7500 years, that Genesis is to be taken literally, etc etc. Some of the Fathers have done some speculative theology based on the things we do know and their knowledge of the science of the day, and some of their theological conclusions are undoubtedly sound, but we never say that every speculation by every one of the Fathers is infallible or required to be believed. We are definitely awaiting some new work on this, but I think in the end the fact that there has been life on earth for billions of years is going to be irrelevant - we already have all the main theological conclusions and God hasn't seen fit to reveal all the details. God somehow worked to make humans over the course of millions of years and then call them into relation with Himself.

ArmyMatt · Oct 4, 2016

They are animals that died off.

JackRT · Oct 4, 2016

ArmyMatt said:
They are animals that died off.

If so, they were animals that made tools, practiced a form of religion, buried their dead, cared for their elders, set bones, pulled teeth and were able to interbreed with modern humans.

ArmyMatt · Oct 4, 2016

JackRT said:
If so, they were animals that made tools, practiced a form of religion, buried their dead, cared for their elders, set bones, pulled teeth and were able to interbreed with modern humans.

all that very well may be the case, but what makes someone human is more than just making tools, practicing a form of religion, buried their dead, etc.

rusmeister · Oct 4, 2016

YCGP said:
I see. So your strategy is to contest rather than to look at scripture for explanations.

I wish I knew more about science. I wish I knew scientists who would tell me how solid their evidence is.

I am still at the point where I want someone to show me they have disproved the existence of God. Then, despite the 'overwhelming' evidence, I want to believe in God anyway.

Yes. By contrast, look at gzt's sub-heading. He dogmatically believes in human evolution, so you will be told how solid the evidence is.

I contest because I know something about modern education. I see as completely compatible the idea that modern science can make amazing tech devices that work, that we can see, observe and test, and that the scientists who get a highly flawed education that excludes true philosophy and theology can make wildly wrong pronouncements and conclusions - consistently - about a long-distant past that cannot be observed.

All people, scientists or not, who believe certain things true will tell you that what they believe is true and that their evidence is very solid. They will tell you, never fear.

We believe even our own birthdays because we have faith in the authorities (usually parents) who taught it to us. Belief is ultimately a choice, in the face of, or absence of evidence. You still choose.

jckstraw72 · Oct 5, 2016

they could also just be ... humans. even amongst people living today there is great variety. just cause "neanderthals" don't look exactly like modern white dudes doesn't mean they're not humans. look at the aborigines.

How do we explain Neanderthals?

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The age of the Earth is 4.54 ± 0.07 billion years

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The age of the Earth is 4.54 ± 0.07 billion years

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