How do non-Catholics explain Eucharistic miracles, such as bleeding, and Marian...

FireDragon76 said:

The Protovangelion of James always struck me as being a Jewish, not a pagan, story, echoing the stories found in the Old Testament, and not necessarily any more mythical than the other Gospel accounts.

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Even IF that is so, something doesn't become canonical, simply because it was written by Jews (although everything that IS canonical, WAS written by Jews, or close disciples of Jews). It is a late writing that isn't supported by anything in the Fathers or in the rest of the Scriptures.
And yes, the "Temple virgin"-thing bears a striking resemblance to the Roman Vestal Virgins; something unheard of in Judaism.

Standing Up said:

You are correct to identify the Roman Catholic Church with RCC or RC (Roman Catholic).

For some unknown reason, some of the RCers here like to make mention that they think they are the Catholic Church, as if to hope no one knows their doctrines/dogmas are far different from what the church taught long ago.

PS As an example, Cyprian and Firmillian argued against the Roman Church (pope Stephen) back in the 3rd century about Rome's belief that any baptism by any group was equivalent (regenerative) to the Christian one. They were the Catholic Church, not Rome is what they argued.

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I call it RCC for the distinction, since we are all "catholic".

Epiphoskei said:

You know full well that the meaning of Catholic is such that no non-Roman can call Rome the Catholic Church. It'd be like the American president changing his title to "Emperor of the World" and demanding all other leaders address him as such.

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Amen.

Root of Jesse said:

There are many forms of fasting. There's total fast, there's fast from a particular category of food, fasting from a particular food, and so on.

Fasting from something you love is tough. If you do it right, it's self-inflicted suffering, which you offer to God. Today, Catholic kids, at Lent, are told by their parents to give up something for Lent, but they don't understand what it's about. But here's an example that might help:

Your company is hosting a lunch to honor the employees of a department. They've set it on Friday, at a Brazilian Barbecue place. Your normal practice is to not eat meat on Friday, as the Church has observed for decades and centuries. It's a private thing, you don't make a big deal of it. So the Friday rolls around, and the crew all goes to lunch. There's a salad bar, and there's the waiters coming around with spits of meat, and they set it right down next to you, and offer you a slice. True to your committment to God, you turn down every time one of these guys comes around. Everyone's looking at you in wonder, because you love meat, and everyone knows you love meat. Some of them realize that you fast from meat on Fridays, and they say "Can't you just relax your fast this once?" You say, no, because the kind of sacrifice you're making might require some self-denial.

The point is that, whatever suffering you're undergoing, put it to good use. Offer it, cheerfully, to God. Whether you inflict it on yourself, or it's brought on to you. Accept it cheerfully, and turn it into good.

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Thanks for the information ROJ, and for your conversation in this
thread, showing kindness, even when others might mock.
I'll look into that.
Self torture still doesn't resonate
well with my spirit, but our conscience
speaks as it knows, so sometimes it
needs a bit of retraining.
King David 'spoke to' his soul.

Epiphoskei said:

You know full well that the meaning of Catholic is such that no non-Roman can call Rome the Catholic Church. It'd be like the American president changing his title to "Emperor of the World" and demanding all other leaders address him as such.

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interesting metaphor

years ago I compared Protestant denominations to a number of people living on a deserted island who do not really work well with each other, does not recognize the authority of the US Government, but yet still try and claim that they are part of the US

it was not the most charitable comparison

your analogy is slightly off
you are comparing Denominations to Nation States
since there is nothing with authority over sovereign Nation States, then for the leader of one to claim a higher status is absurd
but Christian Denominations do not claim to be their own authority, they claim to be under the authority of God
there are not self created Nation States, but Denominations that claim God as their source of authoirty

I don't know about that particular matter, but I have been thinking it would be nice if we returned to discussing the topic of the OP--what non-RCs think of Catholicism's alleged apparitions and similar "miracles."

The answer may have come too quickly or was too obvious. Did "show us the evidence" exhaust the discussion? Anyway, if there is more to say about that, let's address it instead of these things we've wandered into instead.

Rhamiel said:

your analogy is slightly off
you are comparing Denominations to Nation States
since there is nothing with authority over sovereign Nation States, then for the leader of one to claim a higher status is absurd
but Christian Denominations do not claim to be their own authority, they claim to be under the authority of God
there are not self created Nation States, but Denominations that claim God as their source of authoirty

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Certainly you accept that God is the sovereign over both all churches and all nations.

Except to the Romans, Rome is a sect, not the Church. To demand the use of language implying Rome is the church by non-Romans is obviously imperious.

Albion said:

I don't know about that particular matter, but I have been thinking it would be nice if we returned to discussing the topic of the OP--what non-RCs think of Catholicism's alleged apparitions and similar "miracles."

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LOL
Top ten "non rc's"

Who Posted? Total Posts: 946
User Name Posts Root of Jesse 142 Stryder06 118 MoreCoffee 85 Albion 62 Standing Up 61 sunlover1 42 Rev Randy 42 Rhamiel 40 Lion King 39 Mike to Michael 24

The answer may have come too quickly or was too obvious. Did "show us the evidence" exhaust the discussion? Anyway, if there is more to say about that, let's address it instead of these things we've wandered into instead.

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Yes, I don't want anything to do with those sightings, and I also shun
all sightings of gold dust, feathers etc.
Lest anyone want to accuse me of being a hater.. again..
I'm not a hater, I am a skeptic.
And that because I have been tricked big time in the past.

heard that.

Albion said:

I don't know about that particular matter, but I have been thinking it would be nice if we returned to discussing the topic of the OP--what non-RCs think of Catholicism's alleged apparitions and similar "miracles."

The answer may have come too quickly or was too obvious. Did "show us the evidence" exhaust the discussion? Anyway, if there is more to say about that, let's address it instead of these things we've wandered into instead.

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The Devil can cause blood to come forth in his own miracle, in a deception, in a counter-feit of God's own true power:

Thus saith the LORD, In this thou shalt know that I am the LORD: behold, I will smite with the rod that is in mine hand upon the waters which are in the river, and they shall be turned to blood. Exodus 7:17

And the fish that is in the river shall die, and the river shall stink; and the Egyptians shall lothe to drink of the water of the river. Exodus 7:18

And the LORD spake unto Moses, Say unto Aaron, Take thy rod, and stretch out thine hand upon the waters of Egypt, upon their streams, upon their rivers, and upon their ponds, and upon all their pools of water, that they may become blood; and that there may be blood throughout all the land of Egypt, both in vessels of wood, and in vessels of stone. Exodus 7:19

And Moses and Aaron did so, as the LORD commanded; and he lifted up the rod, and smote the waters that were in the river, in the sight of Pharaoh, and in the sight of his servants; and all the waters that were in the river were turned to blood. Exodus 7:20

And the fish that was in the river died; and the river stank, and the Egyptians could not drink of the water of the river; and there was blood throughout all the land of Egypt. Exodus 7:21

And the magicians of Egypt did so with their enchantments: and Pharaoh's heart was hardened, neither did he hearken unto them; as the LORD had said. Exodus 7:22

Even as it is written by Paul, these false ones, do miracles to oppose God and His messenger, and His Word, and His Commandments, which are Truth:

Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith. 2 Timothy 3:8

It is written:

And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. Revelation 13:14

For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. Revelation 16:14

And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. Revelation 19:20

Miracles are no test, but the Miracles must be tested by the Word of God, een as it is written: To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. Isaiah 8:20

The Devil can cause miracles to go forward in the name of God, though they are counterfeit and spurious:

But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one: Acts 8:9

To whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, This man is the great power of God. Acts 8:10

And to him they had regard, because that of long time he had bewitched them with sorceries. Acts 8:11

And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, Acts 8:18

Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost. Acts 8:19

But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money. Acts 8:20

Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God. Acts 8:21

Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee. Acts 8:22

For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity. Acts 8:23

Then answered Simon, and said, Pray ye to the Lord for me, that none of these things which ye have spoken come upon me. Acts 8:24

The Devil can cause his miracles to look good enough to fool leaders of nations through false prophets, both in the OT [Pharoah] and NT [Sergius Paulus], etc:

And when they had gone through the isle unto Paphos, they found a certain sorcerer, a false prophet, a Jew, whose name was Barjesus: Acts 13:6

Which was with the deputy of the country, Sergius Paulus, a prudent man; who called for Barnabas and Saul, and desired to hear the word of God. Acts 13:7

But Elymas the sorcerer (for so is his name by interpretation ) withstood them, seeking to turn away the deputy from the faith. Acts 13:8

The Devil sends false prophets among the true according to Jesus, speaking all manner of lies in the name of God, and do great signs and wonders to deceive, and they claim to be of God, even Christians, but are not, and he even sends false Christ's, which claim to be in the place, or take the place of the Son of God on earth, that they are His representative:

Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Matthew 7:15

And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. Matthew 24:11

For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Matthew 24:24

For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect. Mark 13:22

Peter and John warns also:

But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. 2 Peter 2:1

Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 1 John 4:1

Even as the OT had spoken before:

Then the LORD said unto me, The prophets prophesy lies in my name: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them: they prophesy unto you a false vision and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart. Jeremiah 14:14

Thy prophets have seen vain and foolish things for thee: and they have not discovered thine iniquity, to turn away thy captivity; but have seen for thee false burdens and causes of banishment. Lamentations 2:14

Satan can cause miracles, and plagues and armies and storms, and make it seem as if God is the one doing it, by his deceptions, even from the four directions of the compass:

And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath [is] in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD. Job 1:12

And the Sabeans fell upon them, and took them away; yea, they have slain the servants with the edge of the sword; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee. Job 1:15

While he [was] yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The fire of God is fallen from heaven, and hath burned up the sheep, and the servants, and consumed them; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee. Job 1:16

While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The Chaldeans made out three bands, and fell upon the camels, and have carried them away, yea, and slain the servants with the edge of the sword; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee. Job 1:17

And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life. Job 2:6

So went Satan forth from the presence of the LORD, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown. Job 2:7

Satan can cause not only these elements, but also affect the family to turn against us, even friends by deceitful means, bringing messages without hope, blaming God, even through visions and dreams:

Then said his wife unto him, Dost thou still retain thine integrity? curse God, and die. Job 2:9

Now a thing was secretly brought to me, and mine ear received a little thereof. Job 4:12

In thoughts from the visions of the night, when deep sleep falleth on men, Job 4:13

Fear came upon me, and trembling, which made all my bones to shake. Job 4:14

Then a spirit passed before my face; the hair of my flesh stood up: Job 4:15

It stood still, but I could not discern the form thereof: an image was before mine eyes, there was silence, and I heard a voice, saying, Job 4:16

Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker? Job 4:17

Behold, he put no trust in his servants; and his angels he charged with folly: Job 4:18

How much less in them that dwell in houses of clay, whose foundation is in the dust, which are crushed before the moth? Job 4:19

They are destroyed from morning to evening: they perish for ever without any regarding it. Job 4:20

Doth not their excellency which is in them go away? they die, even without wisdom. Job 4:21

The Devil, the lying spirit, that being of malice, had gone forth from the Heavenly meetings, as also seen in Job, to deceive and lie, to destroy the lives of men, and to bring false light upon God's character:

And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him. 1 Kings 22:21

And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so. 1 Kings 22:22

Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee. 1 Kings 22:23

Then there came out a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will entice him. And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? 2 Chronicles 18:20

And he said, I will go out, and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And the LORD said, Thou shalt entice him, and thou shalt also prevail: go out, and do even so. 2 Chronicles 18:21

Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil against thee. 2 Chronicles 18:22

Leuko Petra said:

The Devil can cause blood to come forth in his own miracle, in a deception, in a counter-feit of God's own true power...

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The Devil can even mimick those who have died and are now deceased and returned unto dust, because men refuse to hearken unto God's word “ye shall surely die”, in that also He said that the dead know nothing, and are in their graves, their thoughts perished until their resurrection, and so having refused God's word, they will believe the lies of the Serpent, in that the dead are not really dead, even as he said in the Garden on earth, “ye shall not surely die”:

And when Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets. 1 Samuel 28:6

Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor. 1 Samuel 28:7

And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night: and he said, I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me him up, whom I shall name unto thee. 1 Samuel 28:8

And the woman said unto him, Behold, thou knowest what Saul hath done, how he hath cut off those that have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land: wherefore then layest thou a snare for my life, to cause me to die? 1 Samuel 28:9

And Saul sware to her by the LORD, saying, As the LORD liveth, there shall no punishment happen to thee for this thing. 1 Samuel 28:10

Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel. 1 Samuel 28:11

And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul. 1 Samuel 28:12

And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth. 1 Samuel 28:13

And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself. 1 Samuel 28:14

And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do. 1 Samuel 28:15

Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy? 1 Samuel 28:16

And the LORD hath done to him, as he spake by me: for the LORD hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and given it to thy neighbour, even to David: 1 Samuel 28:17

Because thou obeyedst not the voice of the LORD, nor executedst his fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore hath the LORD done this thing unto thee this day. 1 Samuel 28:18

Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the LORD also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines. 1 Samuel 28:19

So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, [even] against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking [counsel] of [one that had] a familiar spirit, to enquire [of it]; 1 Chronicles 10:13

And enquired not of the LORD: therefore he slew him, and turned the kingdom unto David the son of Jesse. 1 Chronicles 10:14

Satan has a counterfeit, and really has two counterfeits for every Truth of God, the two ditches that run along the path of God's Word.

And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. Revelation 12:9

And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, Revelation 13:13

And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by [the means of] those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. Revelation 13:14

And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 2 Corinthians 11:14

..and so people will rather believe their senses, their eyes and their own hearts and the 'apparitions' of the devil [the very darkness of spiritism, and the immortal soul/spirit belief of every pagan and occult religion], rather than Thus saith the Lord.

SDA Multi-color SPAM bomb!

Leuko Petra said:

The Devil can cause blood to come forth in his own miracle, in a deception, in a counter-feit of God's own true power...

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The devil was the one which caused the Son of God to be crucified, and that piercing serpent rejoiced in causing such pain and wounds...

...and he still loves to do this today, in the many 'manifestations' of his cruelty in the 'stigmata's', causing his victims to bleed, and even worse causing them to believe that it is God which brings it upon them, and desires it of them...

For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet. Psalms 22:16

...it is satans religion which desires such things, even as he always delighted in pain, torture and death...

And they cried aloud, and cut themselves after their manner with knives and lancets, till the blood gushed out upon them. 1 Kings 18:28

...for the devil is the author of such things, not God, who is the Healer, the Great Physician [Luke 4:23]:

And he came down with them, and stood in the plain, and the company of his disciples, and a great multitude of people out of all Judaea and Jerusalem, and from the sea coast of Tyre and Sidon, which came to hear him, and to be healed of their diseases; Luke 6:17

And his fame went throughout all Syria: and they brought unto him all sick people that were taken with divers diseases and torments, and those which were possessed with devils, and those which were lunatick, and those that had the palsy; and he healed them. Matthew 4:24

And great multitudes came unto him, having with them those that were lame, blind, dumb, maimed, and many others, and cast them down at Jesus' feet; and he healed them: Matthew 15:30

And the people, when they knew it, followed him: and he received them, and spake unto them of the kingdom of God, and healed them that had need of healing. Luke 9:11

etc...

..they came to Hear His Word and be healed, and yet the devil may even counter-feit healing, and so it must be tested according to the Word, and do they speak to the Law and to the Testimony, or do they reject a portion of it for the traditions, superstitions of devils and men.

He sent his word, and healed them, and delivered them from their destructions. Psalms 107:20

For the Devil can inflict pain for many many years...

And ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan hath bound, lo, these eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the sabbath day? Luke 16:13

...and though Jesus healed and loosed this woman, beware, that even the devil may mimick such, by simply removing the pain he is inflicting that he may ensnare the deceived in twice over...

...that many will run to false waters... by the stirring of the false angels...

In these lay a great multitude of impotent folk, of blind, halt, withered, waiting for the moving of the water. John 5:3

For an angel went down at a certain season into the pool, and troubled the water: whosoever then first after the troubling of the water stepped in was made whole of whatsoever disease he had. John 5:4

And a certain man was there, which had an infirmity thirty and eight years. John 5:5

...these were spellbound by the machinations of satan in the moving of the waters which could not heal and could not give life...

...but when Jesus Christ came, He the living Water healed that man, without even one use of that 'stirred' water...

...thousands today are stuck like that man and those people, looking unto miracles of some ['holy'] 'water' and yet do not place their faith in Jesus Christ and His Word now today, who can in this very instant heal them of all their diseases, doubts, fears, sins...

Tzaousios said:

SDA Multi-color SPAM bomb!

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three of 'em ....

Tzaousios said:

SDA Multi-color SPAM bomb!

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Yup.



Why address content when we can mock style?

MoreCoffee said:

three of 'em ....

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...A most articulate & thoroughly convincing rebuke.
Thanks for takin' the time.

Rick Otto said:

Yup.

Why address content when we can mock style?

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What would you like me to address? I commented on the manner in which a slew of Bible verses was posted. There was not much else.

Is there something in the SDA Bomb that you agree with, Rick?

Rick Otto said:

...A most articulate & thoroughly convincing rebuke.
Thanks for takin' the time.

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It was a refutation on an extraordinarily high level

Tzaousios said:

What would you like me to address? I commented on the manner in which a slew of Bible verses was posted. There was not much else.

Is there something in the SDA Bomb that you agree with, Rick?

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Dare I do such a thing as agree with an SDA?
What I, the OP, & presumably the SDA "terrist" would like responded to is the posted verses, Tzaousios. If you feel one or more is irrelevant or contradictory for some intelligent reason beyond the number, color, & the author's denomination, it would serve both conversation & civility to mention that & the reason for it, in my opinion Tzaousios. That's all.

Rick Otto said:

Dare I do such a thing as agree with an SDA?
What I, the OP, & presumably the SDA "terrist" would like responded to is the posted verses, Tzaousios. If you feel one or more is irrelevant or contradictory for some intelligent reason beyond the number, color, & the author's denomination, it would serve both conversation & civility to mention that & the reason for it, in my opinion Tzaousios. That's all.

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Oh, I see, so there is no more content in the three posts you have made than what you were whining about that was contained in mine and MoreCoffee's posts. I understand now.

MoreCoffee said:

It was a refutation on an extraordinarily high level

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Yes, I'd estimate your level to be extraordinarily high.