How do non-Catholics explain Eucharistic miracles, such as bleeding, and Marian...

MoreCoffee · Sep 23, 2013

Optimax said:
How do non-Catholics explain Eucharistic miracles, such as bleeding, and Marian...

It is best explained for exactly what it is.

A demonic manifestation that draws attention away from Jesus toward something false.

Just curious but how is an appearance of one of the saints or an angel any different from the appearance of an angel in sacred scripture; for example, Gabriel appearing before Zechariah or before Mary?

And what do you make of the many Pentecostal people who claim to have seen Jesus in vision or in reality as well as the many accounts given by Pentecostal people about their own alleged trip to heaven (or hell)?

MoreCoffee · Sep 23, 2013

Lion King said:

Star wars is a trap for the unwary. Many think that there is a "dark side" and a "force" but they have long since abandoned any semblance of Christianity. I guess the imagery and symbols that people think of most is a clue about their religious orientation.

MoreCoffee · Sep 23, 2013

Mike to Michael said:
Tell me; was the baptism of John from heaven or of men?

It was of God because as Jesus Said, "I tell you, among those born of women, no one is greater than John" and as the scripture testifies regarding him, "A man named John was sent from God. He came for testimony, to testify to the light, so that all might believe through him". And John said, Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world. He is the one of whom I said, A man is coming after me who ranks ahead of me because he existed before me. I did not know him, but the reason why I came baptizing with water was that he might be made known to Israel.

MoreCoffee · Sep 23, 2013

Optimax said:
There is coming a time on the planet when a person with their "prophet" and "priest" will perform the same type of "apparitions" and even more astonishing ones.

That too will be demonic and deceive the millions that will witness them.

Those millions will be forced to accept a "mark" that will enable them to buy, sell and trade.

However all those witnesses will not make what they witnessed of the Lord.

It will be demonic as are the apparitions you are deceived by.

The apostle said "no one can say, 'Jesus is Lord', except by the Holy Spirit" so when the people involved in Visions of Mary proclaim Jesus as Lord and God we know that their message is, as the apostle says, of God.

Now in regard to spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not want you to be unaware. You know how, when you were pagans, you were constantly attracted and led away to mute idols. Therefore, I tell you that nobody speaking by the spirit of God says, Jesus be accursed. And no one can say, Jesus is Lord, except by the holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:1-3)

Lion King · Sep 23, 2013

Franny50 said:
If Protestants believe Mary Is the mother of God,then why is it impossible for her to perform a miracle,when the Apostles performed miracles in Jesus's name.I am Catholic and believe there is a place for Mary in Christian worship as long as our Lord comes first.As for your question,I do not believe that the evidence of these apparitions can be disputed when there are tens of thousands of witnesses and scientific evidence.

Lion King · Sep 23, 2013

MoreCoffee said:
The apostle said "no one can say, 'Jesus is Lord', except by the Holy Spirit" so when the people involved in Visions of Mary proclaim Jesus as Lord and God we know that their message is, as the apostle says, of God.

Now in regard to spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not want you to be unaware. You know how, when you were pagans, you were constantly attracted and led away to mute idols. Therefore, I tell you that nobody speaking by the spirit of God says, “Jesus be accursed.” And no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:1-3)

I don't think that passage means what you think it means...Just because a spirit says Jesus is the LORD does not automatically mean it's from God.

Just then a man in their synagogue who was possessed by an impure spirit cried out, 24 “What do you want with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are—the Holy One of God!”

25 “Be quiet!” said Jesus sternly. “Come out of him!”- Mark 1:23-25

Optimax · Sep 23, 2013

MoreCoffee said:
The apostle said "no one can say, 'Jesus is Lord', except by the Holy Spirit" so when the people involved in Visions of Mary proclaim Jesus as Lord and God we know that their message is, as the apostle says, of God.
Now in regard to spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not want you to be unaware. You know how, when you were pagans, you were constantly attracted and led away to mute idols. Therefore, I tell you that nobody speaking by the spirit of God says, Jesus be accursed. And no one can say, Jesus is Lord, except by the holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:1-3)

Your attempted use of this scripture is out of context.

Paul was teaching on the nine manifestations of the Holy Spirit.

In case you are not aware of it.

All who speak do not all speak by the Spirit.

anyone including a Christian(born again one) can say anything they want.

They can say "Jesus is accursed"

They can say "Jesus is Lord".

Visions of Mary are not of God.

Visions of Mary draw attention to Mary.

The Holy Spirit speaks of Jesus.

The Holy Spirit speaks of those things that are of and about Jesus.

The Holy Spirit was not sent to speak of things of and about Mary.

John 16:13-14
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. KJV

Those "apparitions" and such are not of the Holy Spirit.

Any visions of Mary are not of the Holy Spirit.

MoreCoffee · Sep 23, 2013

I think it is exactly the right context. It speaks of the gifts of the Holy Spirit, "grace gifts", and the visions of Jesus, Mary, the apostles, and so forth are exactly that, grace gifts of the Holy Spirit. Those who experience such gifts bear witness that Jesus is Lord as part of their visions.

Optimax · Sep 23, 2013

MoreCoffee said:
I think it is exactly the right context. It speaks of the gifts of the Holy Spirit, "grace gifts", and the visions of Jesus, Mary, the apostles, and so forth are exactly that, grace gifts of the Holy Spirit. Those who experience such gifts bear witness that Jesus is Lord as part of their visions.

Here are the nine gifts 1 Cor. 12 is speaking of.

1 Cor 12:8-10

8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: KJV

Show me in those nine gifts:

The gift of the visions of Jesus,

The gift of the visions of Mary,

The gift of the vision of the apostles,

And the gift of "and so forth".

MoreCoffee · Sep 23, 2013

Optimax said:
Here are the nine gifts 1 Cor. 12 is speaking of.

1 Cor 12:8-10

8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: KJV

Show me in those nine gifts:

The gift of the visions of Jesus,

The gift of the visions of Mary,

The gift of the vision of the apostles,

And the gift of "and so forth".

That'd be these:

the word of wisdom
word of knowledge
faith
gifts of healing
working of miracles
prophecy
discerning of spirits

Usually all of them are present in each of the recorded instances. Sometimes these are also present:

divers kinds of tongues
interpretation of tongues

Stryder06 · Sep 23, 2013

Franny50 said:
What does your question have to do with anything?Who is questioning whether or not Protestants go to Heaven.Anyone who keeps Gods commandments go to Heaven.

Is that offical catholic doctrine?

Stryder06 · Sep 23, 2013

Rhamiel said:
can a demon tell people to trust in Jesus?

They most certainly can. A lie is better received when it is mixed with a bit of truth. That's generally how one ends up being deceived.

I thought demons hated God and would never tell people to follow Jesus?

They do hate God, but as the old saying goes, you attract more bee's with honey. Demons can tell you to trust in God while simultaneously instructing you in error that will result in you being deceived.

Stryder06 · Sep 23, 2013

MoreCoffee said:
That'd be these:

the word of wisdom

word of knowledge

faith

gifts of healing

working of miracles

prophecy

discerning of spirits

Usually all of them are present in each of the recorded instances. Sometimes these are also present:

divers kinds of tongues

interpretation of tongues

What's not present is anying in accordance with the law and the testimony.

seeingeyes · Sep 23, 2013

Mike to Michael said:
...apparitions, such as Fatima. Eucharistic bleeding miracles, that are confirmed with science? I also recently read in OBOB about a certain saint, that on the celebration of his feast day, every single year, a vial of his blood liquifies before the congregation; the one time it didn't liquify, in 1980, there was an earthquake that killed a lot of people in the region in which this miracle takes place.

Then there's also a bleeding Eucharist miracle that was scientifically tested. The Eucharist fell to the floor, where it began to bleed. Testing was positive for a damaged human heart...

Just curious how non-Catholics reconcile these things. And of course, Mary's wish for Russia to convert with her apparition at Fatima apparently came to pass with the Russian Orthodox Church.

What do you think should be made of it?

Sword of the Lord · Sep 23, 2013

seeingeyes: I'm not quite sure, hence why I asked. I do, however, know that at least *something* is happening in Catholicism and that Jesus was also accused of performing miracles through demons.

InSpiritInTruth · Sep 23, 2013

I didn't even know what Fatima was so I searched it, and to be honest I don't hear the Lords voice or message in this at all, as Jesus said my sheep shall hear my voice and anothers they will not hear.

Also some on this thread have claimed it to be scientifically proven, but thats not what I read in the article here.

Our Lady of FÃ¡tima - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sword of the Lord · Sep 23, 2013

Blood in the Eucharist has been scientifically proven. Nobody said anything about Fatima being scientifically proven, but 17,000 witnesses is compelling.

Lion King · Sep 23, 2013

Mike to Michael said:
Blood in the Eucharist has been scientifically proven. Nobody said anything about Fatima being scientifically proven, but 17,000 witnesses is compelling.

Not all witnesses reported seeing the sun "dance". Some people only saw the radiant colors, and others, including some believers, saw nothing at all.

Our Lady of FÃ¡tima - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Who to believe? Hmmm...

InSpiritInTruth · Sep 23, 2013

Here's a clip from the article concerning a so-called miracle of the sun which the children said would take place, which some here are trying to pass off as scientifically proven.

[qoute from article] No movement or other phenomenon of the sun was registered by scientists at the time.[3] According to contemporary reports from poet Afonso Lopes Vieira and schoolteacher Delfina Lopes with her students and other witnesses in the town of Alburita, the solar phenomenon was visible from up to forty kilometers away. Not all witnesses reported seeing the sun "dance". Some people only saw the radiant colors, and others, including some believers, saw nothing at all.[12][13]
Since no scientifically verifiable physical cause can be adduced to explain the phenomenon of the sun [end qoute]

Even the witnesses who were there didn't agree on what they saw or didn't see. And have you ever tried looking straight into the sun? Ain't no telling what you'll see when your blinded by it's brightness.

If people want to hang their faith on something 3 children (with fanciful imaginations) said they saw and received then go for it. But it's not in line with scripture, nor does science even confirm it, neither do those so called witnesses to it even agree.

But the childrens testimony does seem to be in line with Catholic doctrine and beliefs, so to me it sounds and smells real fishy.:o

football5680 · Sep 23, 2013

Stryder06 said:
They most certainly can. A lie is better received when it is mixed with a bit of truth. That's generally how one ends up being deceived.

They do hate God, but as the old saying goes, you attract more bee's with honey. Demons can tell you to trust in God while simultaneously instructing you in error that will result in you being deceived.

31 And so I tell you, every kind of sin and slander can be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. (Matthew 12:31-32)

Don't say the miracles of Jesus come from Demons. Demons cannot perform miracles because only God has that power.

How do non-Catholics explain Eucharistic miracles, such as bleeding, and Marian...

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