How do non-Catholics explain Eucharistic miracles, such as bleeding, and Marian...

Fireinfolding · Oct 1, 2013

Lust is the same as covet, and coveting another mans wife is what is written in the law, even Paul shows so much when it come to coveting.

For example here

Romans 7:7... for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Same is expressed in respects to a wife (not your own)

Exodus 20:16 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife

Lion King · Oct 1, 2013

Rhamiel said:
if lust is the same as sexual desire, then are people called to have no sexual desire until the moment after they exchange the "I do's"?

YES!

Having sexual desires in your heart about someone you are not married to is wrong.

But I say to the unmarried and to the widows: It is good for them if they remain even as I am; 9 but if they cannot exercise self-control, let them marry. For it is better to marry than to burn with passion. 1 Corinthians 7:8-9

sunlover1 · Oct 1, 2013

Rhamiel said:
like I said
we are using the word lust to mean different things
from the looks of it, some people on this thread are using it to mean any sexual desire

that is not how Catholics use that word

Actually, I do get the impression that some
(not you) feel that enjoying sex is kind of dirty.
And I think that used to be quite common.
Either way, it's not dirty, it is mandated
in marriage, and Mary did engage in it and
even had children.. or she was a rebel, and
we all know she wanted God's will not her
own so... there ya go.

Root of Jesse · Oct 1, 2013

Stryder06 said:
You're doing it again. I don't know how you understand the use of until, but if I told you I won't leave until 3:00 you're not going to say "That doesn't mean he left after 3:00

If you heard a girl say "I'm not going to have sex until after I get married", are you seriously going to say that you wouldn't think that she had sex once she got married?

The bible doesn't have to say Mary had other kids. What it does say is that Joseph didn't know Mary until after she gave birth. You're allowing your Tradition to trump the clear word of scripture.

No, that's not what it says. "Heos" references the past, never the future. Instead, "not until" she bore a son means "not up to the point that" she bore a son.
Matt. 28:29 - I am with you "until the end of the world." This does not mean Jesus is not with us after the end of the world.

sunlover1 · Oct 1, 2013

Root of Jesse said:
I don't see where Jesus excludes a man's wife from that part about "looks at a woman lustfully".

Having sex for pleasure alone is morally disordered.

No it's not.

Also, some kinds of sex between a man and a woman who are married are wrong, but let's keep it PG rated?

What does this mean?
"The marriage bed is undefiled"

Just wondered what that means to you.

Albion · Oct 1, 2013

sunlover1 said:
No it's not.

What does this mean?
"The marriage bed is undefiled"

Just wondered what that means to you.

He picks these phrases up from old-time Catholic publications and repeats them to us. If truth be told, few Catholics today would react to it any differently than you did.

Lion King · Oct 1, 2013

Root of Jesse said:
I don't see where Jesus excludes a man's wife from that part about "looks at a woman lustfully".

As I said, context. Jesus was speaking about adultery. You cannot have adultery with someone you are married to...

Having sex for pleasure alone is morally disordered. The marital act must allow for procreation to take place. Likewise, sex for procreation alone is morally disordered (though not as popular), so IVF, surrogate motherhood, and the like are all morally disordered. IVF moreso, because it involves creating many embryos and killing the unwanted ones. Also, some kinds of sex between a man and a woman who are married are wrong, but let's keep it PG rated?

Where in the Scriptures is it forbidden to have sex for "entertainment purposes" between a married couple?

Root of Jesse · Oct 1, 2013

Lion King said:
Why do you own such devices? Was it not desire to own them that drove you to purchase them?

As I said before, lust is desire to have something. Plain and simple.

No, not plain and simple. You're missing a word. Disordered. It's the degree. A person who just ate a 5 course meal, yet continues to stuff his face is a glutton, which is disordered desire for food.

Regarding my electronics, to some degree, I wanted them and bought them. But I didn't lose sleep over it, it didn't occupy my thoughts very much, and frankly, most of the electrical appliances are workhorses.I just replaced a 10 year old television. I replaced it with one that is about the same size, and has the bells and whistles I will use. I just bought a new car after my 19 year old one died. I didn't buy anything lavish.

There's a Mercedez Benz commercial that demonstrates what lust is...the kid is sitting at a table looking at a billboard. The devil suddenly appears and says "Sign here, and you can have the car, and everything that goes with it." He flashes into the kids mind a picture of fame, fortune and speed. The kid looks out, and sees the price of the car, and says, no thanks, I got this. Lust is having enough and wanting more, to the point where it occupies your mind and your actions.

Root of Jesse · Oct 1, 2013

Standing Up said:
Interesting links, unfortunately he fails to deal with Anna.

Lk 2:36,7

"And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser: she was of a great age, and had lived with an husband seven years from her virginity;
And she was a widow of about fourscore and four years, which departed not from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day."

So, it clear that women who attended the temple did not have to be virgins or without 'blood issue'. They didn't.

Believe the temple virgin idea is of Roman religion, not the Jewish religion.

Nope, that's a consecrated widow. The temple virgins served the temple. Anna never left the temple precincts and prayed and fasted. Consecrated virginity is not unheard of in Judaism.

Root of Jesse · Oct 1, 2013

Standing Up said:
Not according to scripture and tradition (Tertullian, Cyril of Jerusalem and others).

But this thread is about the visions. Not about Mary. The question is whether the visions reflect biblical truth or not.

Don't you agree if the real Mary appeared to anyone, she would point them to Christ as salvation, rather than to an entity called Immaculate Heart?

No, when they're one and the same thing. Her Immaculate Heart reflects back to Jesus.

Root of Jesse · Oct 1, 2013

sunlover1 said:
Sure would look like it to someone who's not
in the moment ...
I think lionking is making a good point tbh.

I think all of you RCCs engage in marital lust,
just the same as all humans since the beginning
of time.
And since the marriage bed is undefiled..
and since God said your body belongs to
your spouse (which means FOR his/her
pleasure obviously..) why sweat it or
call it a bad thing?

I'm sure many do. I pray for them, because they're misled. My body belongs to my wife, but that's not just for her pleasure. It's for supporting the household, earning a living, repairing broken stuff, helping with the chores, and a lot of other things.

It is true that it's harder to lust for your spouse than it is someone you're not married to. But there is the element of purity. For example...I wonder how many people in this thread actually pray before they have marital relations? I mean before... Because if God's not in charge of your sex life, he's not in charge of your life...

Root of Jesse · Oct 1, 2013

sunlover1 said:
No it doesn't. You're the one who's changing what it says.
It's clearly speaking of someone you're not married to.
THe marriage bed, otoh, is undefiled.

because it IS 'okay' to get all worked up for your spouse.
How else is sex going to happen?

You mean you don't know? LOL...I don't need to be all worked up, and neither does she. And we're fine after 26 years.

Besides, consider this...what if your spouse, God forbid, got into an accident, and was sexually incapacitated for the rest of their life??? Or physically disfigured? Just rhetorical, don't want to derail the thread, anymore than it has been already. All I'm saying is there's plenty to life besides the marital bed.

Root of Jesse · Oct 1, 2013

Fireinfolding said:
How do men do (what Viagra might to do) for a man without a desire though?

Because women don't need a physical (transformation) to perform what a man needs in order to "perform".

(trying really hard not to say the third word in this sentence) in that context.

Is it even possible for a man without desire?

Desire is not the issue. Disordered desire is. If you spend all day at work daydreaming about the half-hour you'll spend tonight, kind of thing. Extreme activities, too, if you get my drift. Becoming excited upon arriving home and being together is not lust, and I think that involves the whole person, usually...

seeingeyes · Oct 1, 2013

Root of Jesse said:
Desire is not the issue. Disordered desire is. If you spend all day at work daydreaming about the half-hour you'll spend tonight, kind of thing. Extreme activities, too, if you get my drift. Becoming excited upon arriving home and being together is not lust, and I think that involves the whole person, usually...

That's not disordered. It's called being a newlywed.

Root of Jesse · Oct 1, 2013

sunlover1 said:
No it's not.

What does this mean?
"The marriage bed is undefiled"

Just wondered what that means to you.

Are you trying to say that it's not possible for a marriage bed to be defiled? How about if the husband ties the wife up and...so on? Without her consent?

Root of Jesse · Oct 1, 2013

Albion said:
He picks these phrases up from old-time Catholic publications and repeats them to us. If truth be told, few Catholics today would react to it any differently than you did.

It really doesn't matter the popularity or unpopularity of the Catholic teaching. What's Truth is Truth.

Nanopants · Oct 1, 2013

Root of Jesse said:
Are you trying to say that it's not possible for a marriage bed to be defiled? How about if the husband ties the wife up and...so on? Without her consent?

Without her consent would just be horribly unloving, and thus contrary to the nature of God.

I thought you wanted to keep this PG rated. How far do you really want to go? There's nothing new under the sun w.r.t. this kind of stuff.

Fireinfolding · Oct 1, 2013

Root of Jesse said:
Desire is not the issue. Disordered desire is. If you spend all day at work daydreaming about the half-hour you'll spend tonight, kind of thing. Extreme activities, too, if you get my drift. Becoming excited upon arriving home and being together is not lust, and I think that involves the whole person, usually...

"Every day", seems more like its of that "disordered deal", at least it would seem so to me.

Well, if you both feel that way, I suppose, but gees what some folks believe is that ordered desire thingy, is like way too much.

Like sexual gluttony, I somewhat agree with that comparison.

Root of Jesse · Oct 1, 2013

Lion King said:
As I said, context. Jesus was speaking about adultery. You cannot have adultery with someone you are married to...

Where in the Scriptures is it forbidden to have sex for "entertainment purposes" between a married couple?

What's God's purpose for marital love?

The intended purpose of sex is to allow a man and women to unite emotionally and physically, as husband and wife, with the possibility of forming a new human life and becoming parents.
Sex is intended to be pleasurable for both the husband and wife.When sex is used for any other purpose, it can result in...
regret
insecurity
heartache
divorce more...
abortion more...
disease and infection more...

Procreation

Gen. 1:28, "And God blessed them; and God said to them, 'Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.'"

Intimacy

Song 1:13, "My beloved is to me a pouch of myrrh which lies all night between my breasts."
Song 2:3, "Like an apple tree among the trees of the forest, so is my beloved among the young men. In his shade I took great delight and sat down, and his fruit was sweet to my taste."
Song 2:6, "Let his left hand be under my head and his right hand embrace me."
Song 4:5, "Your two breasts are like two fawns, twins of a gazelle, which feed among the lilies."

Companionship

Song 3:1, "On my bed night after night I sought him whom my soul loves..."

Physical Pleasure

Song 1:2, "May he kiss me with the kisses of his mouth! For your love is better than wine."

The sexual relation is only properly expressed in marriage between a husband and wife (1 Cor. 7:2-3). Any sexual contact between unmarried people is sinful since it violates God's design.

Root of Jesse · Oct 1, 2013

Nanopants said:
Without her consent would just be horribly unloving, and thus contrary to the nature of God.

I thought you wanted to keep this PG rated. How far do you really want to go? There's nothing new under the sun w.r.t. this kind of stuff.

The point is that the marriage bed can be defiled. My point is to keep it undefiled. Lust, which is selfish pleasure, defiles the marriage bed.

How do non-Catholics explain Eucharistic miracles, such as bleeding, and Marian...

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