How do I deal with you guys?

i just want to say that for someone to say that they believe in God and they know that the Bible is the "Word of God" and does not take this seriously... they haven't really discovered the meaning of God's words. It is to be taken in serious concept because just as how Jesus took it. He took it seriously, so should we.

God bless everyone

Impossible said:

I never made any mention that I did not believe in Jesus, God, or any of the bare Christian values.

But I guess not going to church just makes me an angry atheist.

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Adoniram didn't say you were an angry atheist. That is why you are finding yourself in heated debates. You are assuming what he meant. He was talking about the truth in Jesus' name. Which is what a Christian does. I didn't go to church for years because I was selfish, since Adoniram laid it out blunt, I will follow suit. If you believe in God and you let a person or persons stop you from going to church, then you are being selfish. There is such thing for us as Christians to do that is called rise above it. I'm sure you understand that. No action from a human should effect your relationship with God.

You have to understand that when you come onto a Christian Forum that means that most of the members of the forum are going to be Christians. The first thing I did when reading your original post was notice that you said you end up arguing with your Christian friends. I had to then make up my mind on a few things, is the person here to argue, since they end up arguing with other Christians or is the person here to try and seek help, which is what this section is for and I have seen nothing but offers of opinions and help.

What Adoniram posted answered your part about ten words not being enough and corrected me from earlier when I didn't even realize that with less than ten words it could be answered. You are getting some really good answers here.

I noticed you ask how to deal with us, the best way i can advise you is to know the bible.

As Christians if we generally accept it as the written word of God and if you can disagree with us using verses truthfully interpreted from the bible you can easily trip us up. Some of the worst debates I have been in were with athiest that knew the bible better than I did.

Hosea 4:6a "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowlegde,..."

This verse always comes to mind when their is dispute between what people think is right (Christians included), and what the bible says.

Please feel free to ask questions about scripture, even if you want to open another thread they are incredibly educational for all involved.

Whitestone

Impossible-

My sincere apologies, I did not in any way mean that I thought you were an atheist. My reply was in response to a portion of your original post:

My personal belief system consists of this- I believe in God, and my big plan is just to help people and dont do anything I consider wrong.... All that matters in the end is how good of a person you were and the good deeds you did, and I think thats something that nobody tends to see.

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The reason for my response was to point out that the Bible says no one can be good enough or do enough good deeds to merit salvation.

Isaiah 64:6 (NIV)
"All of us have become like one who is unclean,
and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags;
we all shrivel up like a leaf,
and like the wind our sins sweep us away.

Ephesians 2:8-9 (NIV)
"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast."

Also, belief in God is great, as long as that belief motivates you to serving God.

James 2:19 (NIV)
"You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder."

So, the point of my response was that whether you go to church or not, if your "position" is that your goodness and good works will somehow earn you salvation, without believing in the saving grace of Jesus Christ, then, according to God's Word, your "position" is compromised already.

Your question was about how to maintain a calm demeanor when discussing your beliefs. I would say that, like with any disagreement, it depends on your and their ability to keep a level head. "A gentle answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger." (Prov. 15:1 NIV) Most Christians, if they truly care about you, will try to encourage you to believe and put your faith in Jesus, rather than relying on your good works to save you. If that's not something you want to hear, you should probably say "Thank you for your concern," and turn and walk away.

I hope you do not find this response harsh. I am only trying to shine some light in your direction.

TheTruthinFiction-

Thank you for your response in my defense. My, my, you have come a long way since your first posts here. I thank God for your growth, and pray that he will continue to bless you.

How can I present my beliefs

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I guess this would be easy to answer, looks at your question, you are saying (your) beliefs, either you believe every thing God has said in the Bible or you don't. Once you have meet God in person, then all your questions will be answered. You do not have to go to any church to do this, this can be one of the hardest things a person can do, because they know it will change them, and sometimes they do not want to change, they like being who there are, God will come in and Change the Hard heart that all of us have, we believe we are good hearted, but deep down in side we are not, God just show us what we really are, the Sin Nature, we all have, this Sin Nature is what is between us & him, Christ is the bridge that bring us back to the father. All I am saying to you is ( Meet God ) forget about all you hear from all different church, this is about you & your creator. Then let the Holy Spirit Lead you, then you will know the truth.

got confirmed, but after that I just stopped going to church. I know its a conflicting view between me and you, but it hit me that nothing you do at church is ever going to help you. Dont get me wrong, if you want to go around for an hour and a half celebrating your joy of religion that is perfectly fine with me, I just dont believe it will in any way make you a better person, so I stopped going. I see no point in singing songs, listening to bible verses/sermons that relay incredibly simple lessons that are supposed to teach morals that I already live by, all that good stuff

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Ask not what the church can do for you but what can you do for the church. Fry your own steak.

Hi,

First of all, I should appreciate your sincerity in trying to find a way to cool things down rather than going through a heated discussion leading to unpleasant circumstances.

I am not meaning anything here in offense. I hope what I write here may be helpful to you. I may be asking here too many questions just for more analysis and thinking on both sides and not for anything else. None has to answer any of these questions here openly. But these are just intended to help us to think more and more about our own view points and positions to begin with.

Impossible said:

I know its a conflicting view between me and you, but it hit me that nothing you do at church is ever going to help you.

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Atleast as much as my understanding goes, I don't know if I really have a big conflict with your opinion. As much as I have found, nothing you do at church is ever going to help you except for one thing. We can discuss that one thing that I found later only if you want to discuss that. But here is the issue. By your experience in church you found something. And by my experience in church, I have found something. Are we both right? Or are we both wrong?

Impossible said:

Dont get me wrong, if you want to go around for an hour and a half celebrating your joy of religion that is perfectly fine with me, I just dont believe it will in any way make you a better person, so I stopped going.

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No. I am not getting you wrong at all. But the question is that do we really think that all people who go to church go there and do all those things in the church to make themselves as better persons or just feel good about themselves? And even if that is the case, do we really think that such a common opinion of the people is God's intended purpose for the church?

Impossible said:

I see no point in singing songs, listening to bible verses/sermons that relay incredibly simple lessons that are supposed to teach morals.

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Do you think that teaching morals is the ultimate purpose of the church?

Impossible said:

that I already live by, all that good stuff.

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What morals and what good stuff? By this do we mean that we already live by the morals and good stuff that are taught in the church?

Impossible said:

I dont see why knowing Biblical history has any use to man other than giving him morals.

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A very reasonable thought. But are you sure that knowledge of the bible or biblical history is intended just to give "morals" to man to begin with?

Impossible said:

which I really have no use for because they were passed down to me by my parents in the first place.

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The question then would be , where our parents got their morals? Another big problem associated with this in the current age is that almost all the age old "morals" and traditions of the older generation are branded as useless, hopelessly flawed and totally unacceptable to the modern scientific world.

Impossible said:

God isnt going to ask me to recite verses from the bible,

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Maybe you are right. But, what if He quotes the bible to help us know or recall what He has communicated to us through that?

Impossible said:

nor is he going to ask me about Jesuses life.

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Yeah. I am pretty sure that He knows everything about the life of Jesus on earth. So he will definitely need no information from us regarding that. But, what if He asks Jesus if He knows you and me? There is also this other possibility that He asks us what we have done after knowing about the Life of Jesus?

Impossible said:

All that matters in the end is how good of a person you were and the good deeds you did.

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Are we 100% sure that is the ultimate thing that matters to God finally? And if so, who gave us this information and how reliable is this information? And even if that is the case, who knows what is good in God's eyes? Some of the things that I do in my life are good according to me and may not be accepted by you and vice versa. If that is the case, what will happen if I considered that I lived a good life and God considered otherwise? Will He ask the majority of the people who had known me to let me into heaven? Or what should or will He do?

Impossible said:

and I think thats something that nobody tends to see.

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You see. There is disagreement at every point even within a small group of friends. Is n't it possible that there may be some disagreements between us and God also on some issues?

Impossible said:

but as we spend more time togeather and I get thrown into these religious debates, it becomes more and more apparent that we have some fundamental differences in belief .

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That I think is exactly a correct analysis on your part.

Impossible said:

and I really dont want things to get out of hand.

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I appreciate your efforts in this regard. But as you said, when there are fundamental differences in belief it is very hard not to offend each other.

Impossible said:

They are trying to convert me by trying to somehow disprove my beliefs.

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Believe it or not. Christians are called by Christ Himself to go all throughout the world, tell about Him and make disciples for Him. So the moment when you tell them, "you follow your faith with all your heart but let me do what I want" it simply will not make any sense to them. Because they are called to tell others with all kindness and perseverence (but not force others) to lead people to Christ.

Impossible said:

and the only thing that worries me about that is that its going to get6 more and more intense until it becomes out of hand.

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Yeah. Sometimes Christians end up crossing the line of kindness and love in these attempts. But I don't know what you can do about it. It that had already happened to you, then I would apologize on their behalf for that.

Impossible said:

So my question to you is, How do I calm this whole thing down and be able to cool off the flames.

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Ahh!!! How I wish that you ended your question there!!!! The answer will be very simple then.

Impossible said:

without compromising my position?.

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I am stumped here. Anyway, I think that Christians can be intense but not arrogant or forceful or threatening in their approach with the gospel. If you find them to be arrogant or threatening in their approach with you, then I would like to apologize for them on their behalf? But on the other hand if you think that they are not arrogant or disrespectful, then I would like you to consider what makes you feel that the situation is really intense. Is it something or some point made in such discussions that you need to deeply ponder about personally?

Impossible said:

How can I present my beliefs to them in a way that wont make things get incredibly intense?

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As I had said above, the intensity (with respect to just the depth of the convictions and not anger or hatred) in these discussions are very hard to avoid for the simple reason that Christianity involves Christ interfering in one's conscience and changing his/her whole being. And we all know that anything that touches conscience has to be intense. Otherwise, it will have no effect on our conscience. Just imagine the intensity if it is the Almighty God who interferes with the finite conscience of human beings!!!!

I would say that love and patience are the keys at both ends. I don't think that the Christians around you should stop loving you or meeting you even if you tell them straightly that you do not want to discuss anything regarding God with them. If that happens, then I would prefer to apologize on their behalf. But at the other end, I would suggest that you seriously consider your position in your belief just to make sure if you are on the right track. That will infact lead to more healthy discussions with your Christian friends.

Once again, I hope that I have not been offensive here.

May God bless you.

selwyn THAT WAS AN AWSOME POST!

Whitestone said:

selwyn THAT WAS AN AWSOME POST!

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Thank you, Whitestone. Let God's Name be glorified forever. Amen.

This whole thread reminds me of the rich young ruler speaking with Jesus. Faith, not works! There have been some fantastic posts here!

Impossible said:

All that matters in the end is how good of a person you were and the good deeds you did, and I think thats something that nobody tends to see.

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If that is "all that matters" then we are all in serious trouble, for our goodness is not good enough to justify us before God. It is the work of God through the atonement that justifies man.

So my question to you is, How do I calm this whole thing down and be able to cool off the flames without compromising my position? How can I present my beliefs to them in a way that wont make things get incredibly intense?

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Just tell them that you do not believe as they do nor are you interested in having them try and convert you to their view.

I am curious though. Aside from the fact that it can be pretty annoying to have someone incessantly try and convert you to their belief system, why is it that you prefer to not engage in such discussions? Do you feel that they put questions to you that you are not able to answer?

Thanks,
God bless

Impossible said:

Im asking how I can stop these big time debates that are going to leave a mark.

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While I disagree with your view of the Gospel the most simple thing you can do is stop participating in the debates. They cannot debate with you if you don't participate, right?

God bless

Impossible said:

This is going to be a strange question, I know. Let me give you a little backround information, then Ill lay out my problem.

First, Im am not really non christian, however I do not fall into any denomination or really any organized church. I was raised Lutheran (yeah, I know, a rebel from the start), got confirmed, but after that I just stopped going to church. I know its a conflicting view between me and you, but it hit me that nothing you do at church is ever going to help you. Dont get me wrong, if you want to go around for an hour and a half celebrating your joy of religion that is perfectly fine with me, I just dont believe it will in any way make you a better person, so I stopped going. I see no point in singing songs, listening to bible verses/sermons that relay incredibly simple lessons that are supposed to teach morals that I already live by, all that good stuff. My personal belief system consists of this- I believe in God, and my big plan is just to help people and dont do anything I consider wrong. To me, people that think that they are somehow pardoned from what they do during the day by memorizing bible verses at night are completely wrong, as are people that do things just to score brownie points with God.I dont see why knowing Biblical history has any use to man other than giving him morals, which I really have no use for because they were passed down to me by my parents in the first place. God isnt going to ask me to recite verses from the bible, nor is he going to ask me about Jesuses life. All that matters in the end is how good of a person you were and the good deeds you did, and I think thats something that nobody tends to see.

Now to my problem- I know a good amount of people that are very strict into mainstream christianity and log lots of hours at their church (Im going to leave out the specific denomination, it really doesnt matter). They have a pretty involved youth group going, and I have been spending time with them both at non church related events and a couple mild church meetings. Religion was never a huge discussion topic in the beginning and we have never just sat down and said, "Here is where you stand, and here is where I stand", but as we spend more time togeather and I get thrown into these religious debates, it becomes more and more apparent that we have some fundamental differences in belief and I really dont want things to get out of hand. They are trying to convert me by trying to somehow disprove my beliefs, and the only thing that worries me about that is that its going to get more and more intense until it becomes out of hand.

So my question to you is, How do I calm this whole thing down and be able to cool off the flames without compromising my position? How can I present my beliefs to them in a way that wont make things get incredibly intense?

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Your best bet is to not have these conversations. Another good bet is to stay away from the crazy ones. I've had some extraordinarily bad experiences with Christians who have tried to convert me - it borders on assault. So my advice is to have as little contact with the fundies as possible. Better safe than sorry.

Nymphalidae said:

Your best bet is to not have these conversations. Another good bet is to stay away from the crazy ones. I've had some extraordinarily bad experiences with Christians who have tried to convert me - it borders on assault. So my advice is to have as little contact with the fundies as possible. Better safe than sorry.

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Nymphalidae, this forum is for non-Christians to ask Christians questions. If you are not a Christian you should not be answering questions here.

God bless

i do have to say that i dont agree with all of ur views, but that isn't what this thread is about. Okay ur question...i think that if u want to avoid debates about ur faith then just tell ur friends that u respect what they have to say but u arent comfortable with them trying to convert u. As for the bible not being correct word for word i think u have more of a problem with the fact that humans actually wrote it than with the text. I believe that humans wrote the bible while they were inspired by God. i really do think that God gave them the words and that they only did the actual writing. u cant pick and chose what parts of the bible to believe. Would u consider opening another thread to talk about where in the bible it tells us that drugs and slavery are okay? i have some friends that have some of the same concerns about the bible and they have told me before that they believe in God but dont see the point on going to church. Going to church isnt about being converted its about worshipping God and spending time with other christians. i think the best way to change someone's beliefs is to show them not try to talk them out of their views. i hope this helped.

Good Luck
Godzgurl

Have u ever considered why God made this earth and put us on it. Consider this. God hates sin, God will not be around sin, God will allow no sin to enter His kingdom. So why did God create a place that He knew would be so sinful and full of suffering? God wants something. The angels stood before God every day and yet 1/3 of them rebelled because they WANTED what God would not allow and they WANTED it MORE than they WANTED God. If they would have WANTED God MOST then they would not have rebelled. We r here because of what the angels did. We r here to be tested and tried, molded and made ready for heaven. God will have no more rebellion in His kingdom. IF u can serve God no matter the cost like Job and Joseph (go through the fire), IF u can obey and surrender ur will and do God's will for ur life (take up ur cross), IF u can obey and say no to sin here while being tempted (overcome). Then u will have no problem serving and obeying God in His kingdom. God will not just zap u and make u to where u will never rebel nor sin, if He were to do that He would be programming u and u would be no more than a robot (free will). U say there will be no tempter in heaven. That is correct but u will still want and desire. Want and desire is what caused the angels to rebel. The bible says that we r tempted when we r drawn away because of our own lust. It is something that we want. U cannot be tempted by something that u care nothing about. We must come to the place (overcome) that all we will want is God and the things of God and we have a life time (some longer than others) to become what God wants. What does it take to have God's Spirit in our heart? God must be what is most important to us. What is the most important to us? It is what u want more than anything or anyone else. It is what u will give up all else to get and keep, It is what u will do anything to get and keep, It is what u will go anywhere to get and keep. Most will repent and accept Jesus but will not make God what is most important to them. U can read about them in Matthew 7:22 & 23. If u have God it will come down to , How much do u want God? What does God do for us when His Spirit comes into our hearts? I will tell u some of what happens. When God's Spirit comes into our hearts the inborn nature is cast out and our hearts r purifyed. Sin like greed, lust, envy, jealousy etc. is cast out because God will not dwell where sin dwells. When sin like greed, lust etc. is cast out of our hearts it is no longer in control of us, it is how God makes it possible to say no to sin. As long as the inborn nature is in our hearts it will compel us to sin but when God's Spirit is in our hearts sin becomes a choice. The bible teaches that God looks at the heart to see why we say what we say, do what we do, and think what we think.Do u say and do and think because of lust, greed, envy. jealousy etc. or do u say and do and think because of love, compassion etc. What is in ur heart? I hope this helps u. P.S. U will not hear this taught in many church today but it is the truth.

TheTruthinFiction said:

Adoniram didn't say you were an angry atheist. That is why you are finding yourself in heated debates. You are assuming what he meant. He was talking about the truth in Jesus' name. Which is what a Christian does. I didn't go to church for years because I was selfish, since Adoniram laid it out blunt, I will follow suit. If you believe in God and you let a person or persons stop you from going to church, then you are being selfish. There is such thing for us as Christians to do that is called rise above it. I'm sure you understand that. No action from a human should effect your relationship with God.

You have to understand that when you come onto a Christian Forum that means that most of the members of the forum are going to be Christians. The first thing I did when reading your original post was notice that you said you end up arguing with your Christian friends. I had to then make up my mind on a few things, is the person here to argue, since they end up arguing with other Christians or is the person here to try and seek help, which is what this section is for and I have seen nothing but offers of opinions and help.

What Adoniram posted answered your part about ten words not being enough and corrected me from earlier when I didn't even realize that with less than ten words it could be answered. You are getting some really good answers here.

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edited by poster.

You might ask yourself where you got some of your ideas about Christianity. They are not scriptural.
As obtuse as it may sound to you - Christianity is not about you doing good deeds and doing good works.
Christianity is about you making Jesus the Lord of your life and Jesus living his life through your re-born spirit.

There are many religions in the world today and they all preach how you earn your salvation or your right standing with God through good works.
Christianity is the only religion that preaches faith through and only through it's founder. To embrace being a Christian you have to be willing to embrace a supernatural experience not a doctrine.

Being a Christian does not give any of us a title of being perfect. The only perfect human to ever walk the earth was Jesus.

With that said, understand that we all have our own beliefs and our beliefs are either formed from our traditions, opinions, hearsay, common sense or personal experiences. There were a lot of things that I believed about God that were based on every else other than a personal experience with Him. However, once I actually had an experience with Him it changed my beliefs. His thoughts are not our thoughts, nor are His ways our ways - and I am so thankful for that.

When people don't agree with you, vice versa, don't take it personally. It is up to God to reveal Himself and His truth to each one of us in a manner in which we will be able to understand. What He's revealed to you, might just be for you at that time and the people around you might not of have had a similar learning experience with Him. However, that doesn't make either one of you wrong. You just have different personal experiences with God.

For example, after God laying on my heart to study about Easter I came to the learn that as His children we are to celebrate Passover not Easter for Easter is based on pagan traditions. Many of you will not agree with me and that is fine because I know what God revealed to me. We are to follow the example of Jesus, Jesus celebrated Passover not Easter - so this year I celebrated Passover instead. Now just because people dont agree with me doesn't mean that I'm wrong and they are right - we just have different beliefs based on our own personal experience with God.