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How do Christians...

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Wiccan_Child

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... reconcile the suffering in the world with the existence of a loving God?

This is one of the things that's always been a hurdle for me when I consider Christianity, though I don't expect this age-old problem to go away any time soon!

If God is loving and powerful, why does he let us suffer?
 

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(First off I think a very good modern book is "The Problem of Pain" by C.S. Lewis)

A few thoughts:

1) Asking why God allows suffering is the same question as "why does He allow sin", which is in turn the same question as "why does He allow human choice (free will)". The only way one can object to suffering is if one also objects to moral freedom.

2) How could you know what pleasure and happiness were without anything to contrast it with? Don't take things for granted; beautiful, sunny calm days are only pleasant because there are grey, stormy days to contrast them with. [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] are pleasurable only by the fact that we don't live in a state of constant [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]. The very air we breath is a wonderful gift, but the only time we appreciate it is probably after we've nearly experienced suffocation.

3) I'm old enough to know that the only times in my life when I've grown spiritually, when I've gained wisdom, were during times of mental or physical suffering. The times when I've been completely healthy, had plenty of friends and money, when the sun was shining, are the times I barely remember now, because nothing lastingly important came of those times.

4) "The Lord chastens those whom He loves" just as a parent corrects it's child with discipline. It is for the child's own good, even though the child may experience it as suffering.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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1) Asking why God allows suffering is the same question as "why does He allow sin", which is in turn the same question as "why does He allow human choice (free will)". The only way one can object to suffering is if one also objects to moral freedom.
Very well then: why does God allow us moral agency, if suffering is the result? Is bliss not infinitely better than suffering?

2) How could you know what pleasure and happiness were without anything to contrast it with? Don't take things for granted; beautiful, sunny calm days are only pleasant because there are grey, stormy days to contrast them with. [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] are pleasurable only by the fact that we don't live in a state of constant [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]. The very air we breath is a wonderful gift, but the only time we appreciate it is probably after we've nearly experienced suffocation.
Ah, but that isn't necessarily the case: we can appreciate something by its absence, without having to suffer. I enjoy a sunny day because they are relatively rare, but I don't suffer in their absence.

So why can't pleasure and happiness be contrasted with their mere absence, instead of suffering and agony? Indeed, why do some people suffer more than others?

Again, it's a problem I have with reconciling God with suffering: if suffering is for our own good, why don't we suffer equally?

3) I'm old enough to know that the only times in my life when I've grown spiritually, when I've gained wisdom, were during times of mental or physical suffering. The times when I've been completely healthy, had plenty of friends and money, when the sun was shining, are the times I barely remember now, because nothing lastingly important came of those times.
Again, it's the question of equality: taking 9/11 as an example, some people's faith was bolstered when their loved ones survived, but others lost their faith when their loves ones didn't. If suffering is God's way of making us gain wisdom and spirituality, it seems mighty callous :scratch:.

4) "The Lord chastens those whom He loves" just as a parent corrects it's child with discipline. It is for the child's own good, even though the child may experience it as suffering.
But what good comes from natural disasters, pandemics, and famine?

Again, not trying to be argumentative, I'm just trying to understand the Christian perspective on this.
 
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Opti

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1) Asking why God allows suffering is the same question as "why does He allow sin", which is in turn the same question as "why does He allow human choice (free will)". The only way one can object to suffering is if one also objects to moral freedom.

I don't understand this. Many in the world are suffering through no fault of their own, I don't see the relevance between suffering and free will.
 
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ebia

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... reconcile the suffering in the world with the existence of a loving God?

This is one of the things that's always been a hurdle for me when I consider Christianity, though I don't expect this age-old problem to go away any time soon!

If God is loving and powerful, why does he let us suffer?
Because the root causes of suffering and death - sin, evil, idolatory - run through the middle of each one of us they cannot simply be wiped out. That, IMO, is what the story of Noah is about. No sooner has God put the rainbow in the sky, and Noah goes and gets drunk and the same vicious cycle starts all over again.

Dealing with sin, evil, death, suffering, idolatory, and all the rest is a long, slow, messy process. Begun in the call of Abraham, climaxed in the story of Jesus, and still to be finalised - God IS doing something.

But, as any parent, teacher or social worker knows - sorting out a messed up kid is a long, frustrating, process with a lot of set backs. There are no quick solutions or magic wands.
 
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Very well then: why does God allow us moral agency, if suffering is the result? Is bliss not infinitely better than suffering

We teach our children to think, knowing that they may challenge us and turn from our way. Yet, is this not infinitely better than having the children be taught to blindly follow, and become mindless drones? God will not force us to obey and follow him. That's slavery. God is not an enforcer of oppression and slavery. Furthermore, how would God feel if his creations only praised him out of force and not free will?

If a guy asks a girl on a date, and she says yes only because her mother forced her to, then how enjoyable is that for the man? But how much better is it for the man if the woman accepts his invitation because she wants to dwell with him?

Suffering comes from a lack of love. God is love. Suffering, therefore, comes from a lack of God (and I'm not saying that those with God don't suffer. I'm saying that when we are sinless and pure, we do not suffer). God is not where sin is. Therefore, if there is sin, then God is not there, which means love is not there. If love is not there, suffering is there. Where there is sin, there is suffering.

God allows us to choose him, or to walk away from him and "miss the mark" (translation of sin). If we walk away from God, then there is no love, and therefore suffering. This world has much sin, and therefore much suffering. But how much sweeter is it to know suffering, and then choose God? To choose love, rather than be required to love, is amazing.
 
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HoseaWife

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I don't understand this. Many in the world are suffering through no fault of their own, I don't see the relevance between suffering and free will.
In the Christian perspective, sin is a result of turning away from God, disobeying Hi. Suffering comes is consequence of sin. Free will is God's allowance for people to turn away from Him, disobey Him.

Now, with this established, you why many suffer without fault. Well, this is one of God's reason when He says 'dont do that' - because the consequence of doing something sinful, disobedient, is not only the doers suffering but sometimes the sufering of others. As human beings, we're not only connected by the society but also by the world itself- nature. So its inevitable to not affect others with our actions.
 
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HoseaWife

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... reconcile the suffering in the world with the existence of a loving God?
Disobedience. Because of our disobedience, we suffer. But God loves us so much He's given us a second chance to live in His comfort.
If God is loving and powerful, why does he let us suffer?
Because He wants us to love Him not because He tells us to, but because we love Him. He lets us suffer to give us a choice of not loving Him - to have the choice of our will.
 
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... reconcile the suffering in the world with the existence of a loving God?

This is one of the things that's always been a hurdle for me when I consider Christianity, though I don't expect this age-old problem to go away any time soon!

If God is loving and powerful, why does he let us suffer?[/quote

If everything was perfect we would not have free will. God has let man have freedom of choices. Man, not God has created the sufferings in the world by their freedoms to do either right or wrong......man's heart is evil, only God can change a heart.
 
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Norbert L

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First off not all Christians are the same in their teachings. Most (a big most) teach of heaven and hell but a few teach reconcilation and annilhilation. That judgement day is more than a quick lineup where, like in the concentration camps someone looks at you and gestures with their thumb wether you're going left or right.

That during this age, God chooses to open a persons eyes to see, ears to hear and grants repentance as first fruits of His work. That all other's are the greater second harvest, who die wether through their own misjudgement or by the Cain's of this world. To sleep til they are given fleshly life again, in the age to come.

That Eze 37 is not an allegory,

Therefore prophesy and say to them, 'Thus says the Lord God: "Behold, O My people, I will open your graves and cause you to come up from your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. Then you shall know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves, O My people, and brought you up from your graves. I will put My Spirit in you, and you shall live, and I will place you in your own land. Then you shall know that I, the Lord, have spoken it and performed it," says the Lord.'

That will be the first time salvation is offered to them where the can see it, hear it for what it truly is. A more in depth "theological explaination" is found here under the term apocatastasis. It's written in fairly plain english, with hardly any million dollar words.

But mostly if I were to just sum it up, the sufferings of this brief life is a reminder to us what it's like to live without God. That without Him we can't even find Him, but He's not going to abandon us to our own devices, He will personally intervene to show what exactly His intentions are, even to those who never held a Bible in their hands. That He did send Jesus who likewise suffered in a brutal manner as the example to follow.

Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God (Heb 12:2)
 
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Wiccan_Child

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Because the root causes of suffering and death - sin, evil, idolatory - run through the middle of each one of us they cannot simply be wiped out. That, IMO, is what the story of Noah is about. No sooner has God put the rainbow in the sky, and Noah goes and gets drunk and the same vicious cycle starts all over again.
Which is rather worrying, since God was the one who created us all. Does that not mean God created us all with this root cause inside of us?

And why can't it be wiped out? Is God willing, but unable? Able, but unwilling? Neither willing nor able?

Dealing with sin, evil, death, suffering, idolatory, and all the rest is a long, slow, messy process. Begun in the call of Abraham, climaxed in the story of Jesus, and still to be finalised - God IS doing something.
But why is he taking his time? What, exactly, is he waiting for? And why hasn't suffering let up since the time of Jesus? What, exactly, happen there?

But, as any parent, teacher or social worker knows - sorting out a messed up kid is a long, frustrating, process with a lot of set backs. There are no quick solutions or magic wands.
Unless, of course, you're an omnipotent deity ;).
 
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Wiccan_Child

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I like John Hicks 'soul making' theodical arguements.;)
I've heard Iranaeus', which I guess are basically the same.

But they raise more questions: can God not just create us with a fully-made soul? More generally, if evil is created by God for a greater good, why can't he enact this greater good without evil?

That is, these theodicies seem to limit God's ability to that of "trying his best".
 
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Wiccan_Child

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In the Christian perspective, sin is a result of turning away from God, disobeying Hi. Suffering comes is consequence of sin. Free will is God's allowance for people to turn away from Him, disobey Him.
But why does God punish us for disobeying him? Why punish us for exercising the free will he himself gave us? And why punish us so inconsistently (the suffering I have experienced in my 20 years is far less than that experienced by, say, a starving and disease-ridden infant in devout country)? :confused:
 
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Wiccan_Child

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First off not all Christians are the same in their teachings. Most (a big most) teach of heaven and hell but a few teach reconcilation and annilhilation. That judgement day is more than a quick lineup where, like in the concentration camps someone looks at you and gestures with their thumb wether you're going left or right.

That during this age, God chooses to open a persons eyes to see, ears to hear and grants repentance as first fruits of His work. That all other's are the greater second harvest, who die wether through their own misjudgement or by the Cain's of this world. To sleep til they are given fleshly life again, in the age to come.

That Eze 37 is not an allegory,



That will be the first time salvation is offered to them where the can see it, hear it for what it truly is. A more in depth "theological explaination" is found here under the term apocatastasis. It's written in fairly plain english, with hardly any million dollar words.

But mostly if I were to just sum it up, the sufferings of this brief life is a reminder to us what it's like to live without God. That without Him we can't even find Him, but He's not going to abandon us to our own devices, He will personally intervene to show what exactly His intentions are, even to those who never held a Bible in their hands. That He did send Jesus who likewise suffered in a brutal manner as the example to follow.
But why do we need to know what it's like to not live with God? If it's so terrible, why make us endure it in the first place? Why not just... create is, fully satisfied and in love with God, in Heaven?

Like most theodicies, it just leaves me asking... why bother? Why go about this goal in such a roundabout route?
 
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HoseaWife

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But why does God punish us for disobeying him? Why punish us for exercising the free will he himself gave us? And why punish us so inconsistently (the suffering I have experienced in my 20 years is far less than that experienced by, say, a starving and disease-ridden infant in devout country)? :confused:
Just to get this out o the way, that's not His punishment for us.
Let me put it this way. God is Love. He is the essence of life, He gives life. Doing His will means facing Him (with all the implications He has because of what He is) throughout life. The consequence of this is joy.
Turning from God is a way of rejecting God. This means rejecting Love (as it should be, as He mde it to be) and rejecting the essence of Life. It is choosing our will, which has no direction, because we dont know fully where the paths of our choices lead to, above His will, the path He has set for us with a direction for our best because He knows all paths, so He knows where He is leading us to.The consequence of this is suffering.

So what Im saying is, there is no punishment - only choices, our choices. And because we affect each other, knowing it or not, some are simply more affected than others.

To answer about the inconsistancy of sufering: Think of it as God being the parent. And we are all His children. God's got his back turned to us, and rather naturally, as children without guidance, without discipline, without complete knowledge, with selfishness, some may choose to inflict pain in some weaker ones, same will do nothing, some will help others. But everything we choose to do will affect someone in some way - for worse than others, some for worse, some for better. It's the whole 'teacher's got her back to the classroom scenario' - chaos.
 
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HoseaWife

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But why do we need to know what it's like to not live with God? If it's so terrible, why make us endure it in the first place? Why not just... create is, fully satisfied and in love with God, in Heaven?

Like most theodicies, it just leaves me asking... why bother? Why go about this goal in such a roundabout route?
Again, because God wants us to choose to Love Him. He wants us to Love Him because we Love Him, not because He has told us to.
Becaues if we Love Him because of his commnd rather than our choice, we'll be like robots - it wont really be a two-way relationship. There will be no willingness to love Him - just obedience by command. but no will.
 
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Similar start point but the arguments develop in a different way.

What if what we call evil in the capacity we have to reason as limited entities is different to the understanding of an infinate creating entity?

No one has fully answered the epicurian riddle.;)
It is likely atheodicical and theodical arguments will continue until the stars cease to circle.

Humans simply do not know, we can only at best surmise.
Strange how we are so unhappy to live with the idea there are things we do NOT know and that there are limits to our capacity.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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Similar start point but the arguments develop in a different way.

What if what we call evil in the capacity we have to reason as limited entities is different to the understanding of an infinate creating entity?

No one has fully answered the epicurian riddle.;)
It is likely atheodicical and theodical arguments will continue until the stars cease to circle.

Humans simply do not know, we can only at best surmise.
I disagree: God, being all-powerful, can enact any goal he desires without having to use suffering. The only exception is if suffering is his goal, which flies in the face of usual theism.
It's not that we can't imagine why suffering is necessary for some greater good, it's that we can refute the notion that it is, simply by invoking the omnipotence of God.

Which is why I find the Irenaean theodicy so puzzling: it can only work by arbitrarily stripping God of his powers.

Strange how we are so unhappy to live with the idea there are things we do NOT know and that there are limits to our capacity.
I think our biggest gripe is that we have to suffer, and we aren't told why.
 
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