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how do adventists view of the trinity?

reddogs

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Now I have seen in many forums a confusion on this issue and it dawned on me why so many are lacking the understanding or worse think that Christ was created and essentially deny Him as our Lord and Saviour, and part of the GodHead. Many of the new versions such as the NIV have been stripped of the meaning and changed, as they are based on the corrupted Alexandrian manuscripts, the Codex Sinaiticus, Codex Vaticanis, Codex Alexandrius. The American Standard Version (ASV), the New International Version (NIV), the New World Translation (NWT), RSV and many of the other newer versions which seem to be based on these corrupted manuscripts.

If at any point you take a stance or belief that Christ was a created being then you have taken away the diety of Christ. A created being cannot be God, he could not be divine, he could not be worshipped, and worse of all he could not be a saviour to man. We would be lost and Satan would have his victory over God.

This belief that Christ is a created being was started by Arius of Alexandria, where the Alexandrian manuscripts were written and promulgated his doctrine to the world. These Alexandrian codices have been picked up even in todays new versions of the Bible and are having a effect, a systematic removal of the divinity of Jesus Christ.

The problem is that it is not a 'different translation' with these new versions, it basically is editing to take out whatever they disagree with or doesnt fit with their doctrine or traditions. Some have taken out whole chapters out or like the Mormons have done away and written their own... and wipes out the divinity of Christ and makes it hard to prove the GodHead in these new versions such as the NIV...

You can look for Acts 8:37 in most of these 'Modern' Bibles based on the Westcott & Hort corrupted Alexandrian Codices text & you will see that it skips directly from 8:36 to 8:38 without the proclamation of the deity of Christ by the Ethiopian.

Many scholars push the Alexandrian manuscripts, specifically the Vaticanus & Sinaiticus, saying they are the most complete and correct manuscripts. But neither was in the original Greek language, but in a Coptic variation or translation. Coptic placed the origin of these two texts in the area of Alexandria, Egypt the center of the gnosticism heresy.

The Gnostic heresy was a Greek line of thought which came to be known as Gnosticism. We find it specially in the background of the Pastoral Epistles, the Letter to the Colossians and the Fourth Gospel. This Gnostic line of thought had certain characteristics which appear all through the Pastoral Epistles as the characteristics of those whose heresies were threatening the Church and the purity of the faith. It had serious moral and ethical consequences. Its basic belief was that matter was essentially evil and spirit alone was good. That issued in two opposite results.

If matter is evil, the body is evil; and the body must be despised and held down. Therefore Gnosticism could and did issue in a rigid asceticism. The Gnostic looked on creation as an evil thing, the work of an evil god; the Christian looks on creation as a noble thing, the gift of a good God. The Christian lives in a world where all things are pure; the Gnostic lived in a world where all things were defiled.(Titus 1:15)

But Gnosticism could issue in precisely the opposite ethical belief. If the body is evil, it does not matter what a man does with it. Therefore, let him sate his appetites. These things are of no importance, therefore a man can use his body in the most licentious way and it makes no difference. So the Pastorals speak of those who lead away weak women until they are laden with sin and the victims of all kinds of lusts.(2 Timothy 3:6) Such men profess to know God, but they deny him by their deeds.(Titus 1:16) They used their religious beliefs as an excuse for immorality.

Gnosticism tried to blend the new religion but ultimately was against traditional Christian beliefs and attempted to combine Paganism with Christianity. Some Gnostic groups had beliefs that often contradicted the beliefs of other Gnostic groups. The one thing thay all had in common was that all of these groups departed from the orthodox Christian faith, but the Gnostic mixed their beliefs into the manuscripts they made of the scriptures, putting changes of their particular beliefs or taking out what disagreed with it.

The Alexandrian Codices that Westcott & Hort's version used, the Vaticanis & the Sinaiticus reflect this. In fact many, if not all of the passages altered or missing from these codices were in fact quoted by the early church fathers as far back as the late 1st century. For instance, if one reads Irenaeus' Against Heresies 3.10.5-6, he states, "Furthermore, near the end of his Gospel, Mark says:'thus, after the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven, and sits on the right hand of God.'" quoting Mark 16:19. Irenaeus wrote this in AD180, some 200 years before the Alexandrian Codices, yet he quotes word for word all the verses from the missing part of Mark which were supposedly not to have been added until the 4th or 5th centuries.

With the discovery in recent time of the Gnostic Library called the Nag Hammadi, it became clear that the sect known as the "Gnostics" did not believe in the deity of Jesus Christ. Nor did they really believe in His humanity either. They believed He was a "guiding spirit" sent to earth by the "True God" (not the YHWH of the Old Testament, incidentally, whom they considered to be a blind, insane angel who created the material world against Sophia's or "Wisdom" i.e. the True God's will). Jesus' mission according to the Gnostics, was to impart special knowledge or "Gnosis" to spirits trapped in this material world seeking release. Thus, Jesus never died on the cross, was never resurrected, was not God, nor was He human. Mysteriously, but rather conveniently, all the altered or missing texts in the Alexandrian Codices always happen to involve one or a combination of these subjects.

Now, the pieces fall into place. All these "missing" verses were in the original texts written by the apostles. The older manuscripts & the many quotes from the 1st and 2nd century church fathers more than confirm that as fact. However, since these verses did not agree with the theology being taught by the Gnostics, when they made their own Alexandrian copies of the Greek originals, they conveniently altered or deleted them to suit their own ideas of what God should say. Westcott & Hort picked up on these corrupted Alexandrian texts as they were caught up in the views prevalent from darwinism & secular humanist questioning of the validity of orthodox Christianity, if just a few verse could be altered or brought into question, it would serve their purpose. These corrupted Alexandrian texts easily appealed to Westcott & Hort's own non Christian ideas and views. They in my opinion from the letters they exchanged, knowingly made a Greek translation of what was a changed or heavily edited & corrupted Alexandrian translation of a Greek original which has caused great confusion to this day, and specifically in the deity of Christ.
 
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reddogs

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Now lets go into the tried and true text and also SOP and see what it says on the GodHead. lets start at the beginning and work our way to the end so everyone can see the answer, and everyone gain a blessing.

We start with God clearly saying there is no other god and that He does not allow man to follow or worship any other god.

Exodus 20
King James Version (KJV)

1 And God spake all these words, saying,
2 I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Clearly God shows here that not to bow and worship or make images to worship or serve another god. Now, this next verse makes clear there will be no other god, never was and never will be.

“Before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.” Isaiah 43:10

Over and over the scripture repeats in almost every way that only God was to be worshipped and not to turn to other gods, or there would be a terrible evil that would befall them.

King James Version (KJV)
1 Kings 9

1 And it came to pass, when Solomon had finished the building of the house of the Lord, and the king's house, and all Solomon's desire which he was pleased to do,
2 That the Lord appeared to Solomon the second time, as he had appeared unto him at Gibeon.
3 And the Lord said unto him, I have heard thy prayer and thy supplication, that thou hast made before me: I have hallowed this house, which thou hast built, to put my name there for ever; and mine eyes and mine heart shall be there perpetually.
4 And if thou wilt walk before me, as David thy father walked, in integrity of heart, and in uprightness, to do according to all that I have commanded thee, and wilt keep my statutes and my judgments:
5 Then I will establish the throne of thy kingdom upon Israel for ever, as I promised to David thy father, saying, There shall not fail thee a man upon the throne of Israel.
6 But if ye shall at all turn from following me, ye or your children, and will not keep my commandments and my statutes which I have set before you, but go and serve other gods, and worship them:
7 Then will I cut off Israel out of the land which I have given them; and this house, which I have hallowed for my name, will I cast out of my sight; and Israel shall be a proverb and a byword among all people:
8 And at this house, which is high, every one that passeth by it shall be astonished, and shall hiss; and they shall say, Why hath the Lord done thus unto this land, and to this house?
9 And they shall answer, Because they forsook the Lord their God, who brought forth their fathers out of the land of Egypt, and have taken hold upon other gods, and have worshipped them, and served them: therefore hath the Lord brought upon them all this evil.

So scripture is absolutely clear that only God is to be worshipped, and would not allow any other god, and there would not be one before or after. And we see that Abraham worshipped God even before God declared this to the children of Isreal and wrote it down for Moses, so those who followed God knew what He expected of them.

Genesis 22:5
And Abraham said unto his young men, Abide ye here with the ***; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come again to you.

Genesis 26:5
Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

So if as scripture clearly lays out, “Before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me” and their is only one Lord and Saviour, the Holy One, our Redeemer...

Deuteronomy 6:4
Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord:

Isaiah 43:11
I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour.

Isaiah 43:3
For I am the Lord thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour: I gave Egypt for thy ransom, Ethiopia and Seba for thee.

and there is no Saviour besides Him...

Isaiah 45:21
Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the Lord? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.

Hosea 13:4
Yet I am the Lord thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me.

Our Redeemer...

Isaiah 49:26
And I will feed them that oppress thee with their own flesh; and they shall be drunken with their own blood, as with sweet wine: and all flesh shall know that I the Lord am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.

Then who is Christ...


Luke 2:11
For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.

John 4:42
And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.

Philippians 3:20
For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:

2 Timothy 1:10
But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

2 Peter 3:18
But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.
 
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reddogs

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If God says He is the First and the Last, in other words, no god before Him and none after....

Isaiah 44:6
Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Then who is Christ who declares the same...

Revelation 1:11
Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.


Revelation 1:17
And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

Who died on the cross and rose again...

Revelation 2:8
And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;

and repeats clearly as the Alpha and Omega, the First and Last, there was no god before Him or after....

Revelation 22:13
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
 
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reddogs

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Now if God is our Creator, and is everlasting, worthy to be praised, the Holy One and our Lord and Redeemer.....

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Genesis 1:27
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Isaiah 40:28
Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard, that the everlasting God, the Lord, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary? there is no searching of his understanding.

Psalm 148:5
Let them praise the name of the Lord: for he commanded, and they were created.

Isaiah 41:20
That they may see, and know, and consider, and understand together, that the hand of the Lord hath done this, and the Holy One of Israel hath created it.

2 Kings 19:22
Whom hast thou reproached and blasphemed? and against whom hast thou exalted thy voice, and lifted up thine eyes on high? even against the Holy One of Israel.

Isaiah 40:25
To whom then will ye liken me, or shall I be equal? saith the Holy One.

Isaiah 43:15
I am the Lord, your Holy One, the creator of Israel, your King.

Isaiah 47:4
As for our redeemer, the Lord of hosts is his name, the Holy One of Israel.

Isaiah 54:5
For thy Maker is thine husband; the Lord of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.

Habakkuk 1:12
Art thou not from everlasting, O Lord my God, mine Holy One? we shall not die. O Lord, thou hast ordained them for judgment; and, O mighty God, thou hast established them for correction.

and makes clear that He created it and their is no other...

Isaiah 45:18
For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the Lord; and there is none else.

So who is Christ who created all things and is our Lord, and Saviour, the Holy One, worthy to be praised and worshipped...

Ephesians 3:9
And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Colossians 1:16
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Acts 2:27
Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Acts 3:14
But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;

Acts 13:35
Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

and even warned not to deny who Christ is, the Holy One and to acknowledge that Christ as the Holy One...

1 John 2:20-23
20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

Our Creator existed as a divine being, even as the eternal Son of God, in union and oneness with His Father. "The Word was with God, and the Word was God." From everlasting He was equal, infinite and omnipotent, and was the one who created the heavens and earth, and everything in it, and man and woman.

and our Creator is holy, everlasting, worthy to receive glory, honour, and power....

Revelation 4:8-11
8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.
9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,
10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
 
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reddogs

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Now lets look at SOP...

"The great Creator assembled the heavenly host, that he might in the presence of all the angels confer special honor upon his Son.… The Father then made known that it was ordained by himself that Christ, his Son, should be equal with himself; so that wherever was the presence of his Son, it was as his own presence.… His Son would carry out His will and His purposes, but would do nothing of himself alone. The Father’s will would be fulfilled in him." (Spirit of Prophecy, vol. 1, pp. 17, 18)

"There had been no change in the position or authority of Christ. Lucifer’s envy and misrepresentation and his claims to equality with Christ had made necessary a statement of the true position of the Son of God; but this had been the same from the beginning. Many of the angels were, however, blinded by Lucifer’s deceptions." (Patriarchs and Prophets, p. 38)

“Jesus declared, "I am the resurrection, and the life." In Christ is life, original, unborrowed, underived. "He that hath the Son hath life." The divinity of Christ is the believer's assurance of eternal life.” --The Desire of Ages, p. 530.

“I have often seen the lovely Jesus, that He is a person. I asked Him if His Father was a person and had a form like Himself. Said Jesus, ‘I am in the express image of My Father’s person.’ ” (Early Writings, p. 77; cf. Heb. 1:3)

"The Father can not be described by the things of earth. The Father is all the fulness of the Godhead bodily, and is invisible to mortal sight. The Son is all the fullness of the Godhead manifested. The Word of God declares Him to be “the express image of His person.” (Special Testimonies, Series B, No. 7, p. 62)

"The Son of God shared the Father’s throne, and the glory of the eternal, self-existent One encircled both." (Patriarchs and Prophets, p. 36)

"The Godhead was stirred with pity for the race, and the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit gave Themselves to the working out of the plan of redemption. In order fully to carry out this plan, it was decided that Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, should give Himself an offering for sin. What line can measure the depth of this love? God would make it impossible for man to say that He could have done more. With Christ He gave all the resources of heaven, that nothing might be wanting in the plan for man's uplifting." E.G. White, Counsels on Health, 222.

There is one God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, a unity of three co-eternal Persons.

Ellen White quotes John 1:1, which identifies the Sovereign of the universe as God the Father and His associate as the Word who “was with God” (John 1:1). Mrs. White then declares: “Christ, the Word, the only begotten of God, was one with the eternal Father” (Patriarchs and Prophets, p. 34). Mrs. White quotes Isaiah and Micah for the names given to the incarnate Son of God that depict His eternal divinity: “‘His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.’ Isaiah 9:6. His ‘goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.’ Micah 5:2.” Christ is indeed the eternal Son from everlasting.

Then we have "From all eternity Christ was united with the Father, and when He took upon Himself human nature, He was still one with God.” (Signs of the Times, Aug. 2, 1905)

..The world was made by him, “and without him was not anything made that was made.” And “without him was not anything made that was made.” If Christ made all things, he existed before all things. The words spoken in regard to this are so decisive that no one need be left in doubt. Christ was God essentially, and in the highest sense. He was with God from all eternity, God over all, blessed forevermore. . . .

There are light and glory in the truth that Christ was one with the Father before the foundation of the world was laid. This is the light shining in a dark place, making it resplendent with divine, original glory. This truth, infinitely mysterious in itself, explains other mysterious and otherwise unexplainable truths, while it is enshrined in light, unapproachable and incomprehensible.”(The Review and Herald, April 5, 1906).

We see the same truth with scripture..

Matthew 28:19 - Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

2 Corinthians 13:14 - The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.

Only if Christ has with in Himself eternal life can He impart this to His believers. ...


John 10:30
I and my Father are one.

Galatians 1:8-9
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

2 Corinthians 11:4
For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.


John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

So now, lets go to the final step, and see what the term 'Son of God' meant.....

John 5:18
18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

and scripture repeats it so there is no misunderstanding...

Philippians 2:6
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

Now scripture shows us what man will be when they get to heaven....

Luke 20:36
36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

Jesus was not equal to the angels He was equal to God.......
 
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reddogs

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Hoghead1

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Goatee

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For me, an easy way that i explain the trinity is that i myself am a Father, a Son and a Husband! 1 Being but 3 persons! This i read elsewhere quite some time ago and it made sense.
 
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EastCoastRemnant

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For me, an easy way that i explain the trinity is that i myself am a Father, a Son and a Husband! 1 Being but 3 persons! This i read elsewhere quite some time ago and it made sense.
Christ's baptism shows us that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are separate entities, not the same with different titles as your example suggests. I think the example of the family serves well to illustrate... Mr. Smith, Mrs. Smith and Master Smith. All different individuals but all Smiths. The example also coincides with the analogy of Christ and His church (bride and bridegroom)
 
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Hoghead1

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OK, but how is your view anything but tritheism? There are three unique personalities, three gods. What they all have in common is Deity or divinity. That's like saying there are three men. What they al have in common is humanity. But there are still three men.
 
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EastCoastRemnant

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No, for they all originate in God the Father... they are three of one mind and one purpose.
 
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Hoghead1

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If you need me to tell you that....
Yes, I do need you to tell me that. And there is a very good reason why. Often, the unity of the Trinity is thought of in arithmetic, not organic, terms. Hence, the members end up being described identically. Here, you might want to check out Augustine's psychological model of the Trinity, which makes this quite plain. Here, you are doing the same thing. If they are all of one mind, all think alike, etc., then how are they different, how are there three?
 
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Goatee

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"God in three persons. Blessed Trinity," says the major hymn. And that summarizes nicely the vie many Christians hold of tehe Trinity.

I was asking where he got 3 beings/entities from, not 3 persons.

Like i said before, i am 1 being but 3 persons as i am a father, a son and a husband.
 
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Hoghead1

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I was asking where he got 3 beings/entities from, not 3 persons.

Like i said before, i am 1 being but 3 persons as i am a father, a son and a husband.
Yes, I hear you. However, I wasn't referring to the notion that God plays three different roles, though that is one solid solution to the Trinity. I was referring to the notion some have that there are three separate, unique personalities here. The oneness of God said to consist of the fact that either they all work in perfect harmony or all share the same nature, i.e., divinity or Deity. That, to me, is simply tritheism.
 
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EastCoastRemnant

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So you believe that the Father prays to the Son and that the Son and Father are subject to the Spirits leading? If they are all the same, of the same substance, then what's wrong with praying to the Spirit in the Fathers name?
 
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Hoghead1

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So you believe that the Father prays to the Son and that the Son and Father are subject to the Spirits leading? If they are all the same, of the same substance, then what's wrong with praying to the Spirit in the Fathers name?
Do not put words in my mouth or try and say what I believe, until you ask me, please. I am not talking at all about myself here, just about others and problems incurred in the Trinitarian formulations. Saying they are all of teh same substance is vague and the same is vague. Do you mean her are three unique personalities here. What they have in common is Deity? If so, how is that any different from saying three men have in common human nature, and so there really are three Gods, not one? Does saying that the Father and Son are of the same substance mean that the Father and the Son are one and the dame personality, that the Father suffers also? What? These are some of the classical dilemmas with the Trinity.
 
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