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How did the earliest Christians differ from us.

The Liturgist

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On the other hand everyone venerates St. Isaac the Syrian, St John of Damascus, St. Romanos the Melodist and St. Theodora, despite them being of the Church of the East, the Eastern Orthodox and the Syriac Orthodox, respectively, although some Eastern Orthodox have tried to argue that there were two monks named Isaac and that Sebastian Brock is confusing them, but these arguments are not convincing due to a cointinuity in the style between them, and the arguments St. Isaac makes in favor of Apokatastasis follow both what had been previously advocated by Origen and St. Gregory of Nyssa, and what was taught by the Church of the East at that time (see the Book of the Bee by Mar Solomon of Basra).
 
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Canuckster

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"...the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch."

They were called Christians by non-believers as a reproch. The disciples didn't call themselves Christians.
 
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DragonFox91

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The NT letters & letters after the NT frequently use the words ‘saints’, ‘brothers’, ‘those called’, etc. They don’t say ‘fellow Christians’.

We know we eventually accepted the title Christian but I’m disappointed how little other & earlier NT language is used to describe us. It makes me feel like the real language we should be using lost out. Acts isn’t saying we s/ be calling us ourselves that, only describing where the term came from.
 
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The Liturgist

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"...the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch."

They were called Christians by non-believers as a reproch. The disciples didn't call themselves Christians.

That is supposition, and supposition which is problematic, since it risks a loss of continuity in our community.
 
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Canuckster

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That is supposition, and supposition which is problematic, since it risks a loss of continuity in our community.
In our community, the first disciples who met Christ face-to-face, witnessed His brutal death and resurrection and became known as apostles, could not even imagine to take it onto themselves to invent a new label to place on God's children (themselves and others redeemed by the blood and sacrifice of Christ and transformed by the Holy Spirit) nor would they place on God's children a new label invented by unbelievers.
 
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The Liturgist

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The Patristics, that is to say, the successors to the Apostles, were martyred and put to death as Christians, identifying as Christians, for example St. Justin Martyr, and St. Ignatius of Antioch, and St. Polycarp of Smyrna, and St. Peter of Alexandria. And what the choir of martyrs died for calling themselves, or suffered in countless more cases of confessors, that is what I identify with. For this reason I declare myself a Christian. One Syriac Orthodox church, the Jacobites, were also given that name by the Byzantine Empire as a smear, but among the Syriac Orthodox of India, they are happy to call themselves Jacobites, for the same reason.
 
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prodromos

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What follower of Christ would shun being identified with Christ? To those within the Church, they would be identified as brothers and sisters in Christ, but to be identified with Christ by those without the Church would have been seen as a great honour.
 
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Canuckster

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That's a different subject. Christ's apostles would not call themselves or those they taught Christians. They certainly didn't need a term invented by unbelievers to make them feel identified with Christ. That doesn't mean they didn't grow to consider it a great honour to suffer and be persecuted as Christians.
 
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David Lamb

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Didn't they? What about Peter:

“Yet if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God in this matter.” (1Pe 4:16 NKJV)

Certainly, other terms, such as saints, those in Christ, followers of the way, were used more often.
 
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Amo2

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The above quote is one of the reasons I consider the writings of the “Church Fathers” to be inferior to holy scripture. This early on, Clement is already introducing pagan mythology into the mix, to be considered regarding the resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ and his faithful followers.

Phoenix | Egyptian, Greek & Roman | Britannica

Quoted article below from link above.



So, here we have in the writings of Clement, the introduction of pagan sun worshiping mythology. A trend that would only increase over time unto the formation of the first mandated form of “Christianity” for the Roman Empire. One heavily influenced and established by professed converted sun worshipping Emperors, and a mass of pagan sun worshippers brought into the “Church” via imperial mandate over and above gospel believing conversion.
 
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Canuckster

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Yes.... When Peter said this, being persecuted as a "Christian" (to suffer as a "Christian") was well on the way and was nothing to be ashamed of. This shows the term "Christian" was invented by their persecutors as a reproach and not by Peter or any of the other early believers. Whereas terms such as "saints, those in Christ, followers of the way, bondservants of Christ" were invented by believers to give honour to Christ.
 
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David Lamb

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I don't think we are told who "invented" the label "Christian". The verse that tells us when the name was first used simply says:

“And when he had found him, he brought him to Antioch. So it was that for a whole year they assembled with the church and taught a great many people. And the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch.” (Ac 11:26 NKJV)

No mention of who called them that.

As "Christian" means "Follower of Christ" I don't see it as not giving honour to Christ, or as being necessarily a term of reproach.
 
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Canuckster

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"the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch.” not "the disciples first called themselves Christians in Antioch".

And as I mentioned, being called a Christian and suffering as a Christian from your persecutors who invented the term, which to the persecutors meant those who follow what they claim to be the "Christ", is giving honour to Christ.

One thing is for certain: God the Father does not call His children, "Christians", and Christ does not call His brethren, "Christians".
 
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David Lamb

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I agree that Acts doesn't say that the disciples called themselves Christians, but neither does it say that their persecutors called them Christians. I see nothing dishonouring (either to God or to Christians) in using the name "Christian", which means "follower of Christ."
 
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Canuckster

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The disciples were first called Christians at Antioch. That in itself is all the proof I need to know that they didn't call themselves Christians but were first called Christians by non-disciples/unbelievers in Antioch. Thus it was first invented and used by unbelievers in Antioch not by the disciples. And because the disciples suffered as Christians, that term was used by their persecutors (non-disciples/unbelievers) as a reproach. The bottom line is this: none of the early followers of Christ, who witnessed his death and became His apostles, invented the term "Christians" and called themselves "Christians". And if you're honouring God you shouldn't make stuff up I never said. Reread my posts and tell me where I said using the name "Christian" is dishonouring God.
 
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David Lamb

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If I misunderstood you to say something which you didn't, I apologise. I certainly didn't set out to "make stuff up." I think I read more into your sentence: "Whereas terms such as "saints, those in Christ, followers of the way, bondservants of Christ" were invented by believers to give honour to Christ." than you intended. Sorry.
 
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Canuckster

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Thanks for your clarification and apology... a most honourable thing to do on a public forum.
 
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Amo2

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Having just finished reading Clement of Rome, apart from his reference to the Phoenix, the work seems to be very biblically based. Somewhat generic though, in that it did not address any of the specifics of the contentions it was addressing. Focussed upon salvation in Christ alone, our High Priest. The importance of faith, right living, the commandments of God and Jesus, and unity of course. As the holy scriptures admonish us to keep the commandments of God, without any reference to the changing of the fourth commandment, so also does this address by Clement. Unless of course a contention regarding such a change was one of the issues he was addressing, which we do not know. Seems like there would have been some debate about such a change, if it were occurring at the time. So probably not. I suppose I will move on to the Epistle of Mathetes to Diognetus next.
 
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Amo2

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In the above quoted portions of THE EPISTLE OF MATHETES TO DIOGNETUS, we begin to see greater departure, or shall we say deviation from the testimony of holy scripture. In an attempt it appears, to distance “Christianity” from the Jews and apparently the teachings of the Old Testament. In the very first chapter referring to “the superstitions of the Jews”, and alluding to “Christianity” as a new religion, rather than the New Covenant era of the most ancient and true religion or message on earth. The everlasting gospel of Jesus Christ.

In the second chapter we see that Mathetes does not consider all Jewish or Old Testament teaching as superstition, since his stance upon idols is most obviously identical to that of the Jews and Old Testament teaching. Particularly in line with that of the first and second commandments of God. These commandments in any case, he has not ditched into the category of superstition. Nevertheless, declaring anything the Jews believed by commandment and or teaching of God within holy scripture to have become superstition during the New covenant era, is gross error. Our God is not, has never been, and will not ever be the creator or propagator of superstitions.

Chapter three misses and excellent opportunity to address the changes from Old Covenant to New Covenant teaching and practice regarding the sacrificial system. That of the Old Covenant being fulfilled by the once and for all sacrifice of the New Covenant in Christ Jesus our Lord. And the spiritual sacrifice of the saved themselves, in response to the gospel, during this New Covenant era.

Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Nothing about the Israelites sacrificial system had anything to do with superstition, but rather the revelation of the everlasting gospel in type and symbol until the antitype appeared. The Lamb of God, Christ Jesus our Lord. The fulfillment of biblical prophecy which each and every sacrifice was intended to represent and foretell. These teachings and practices of the Old Covenant did not turn into superstition by the establishment of the New Covenant. Rather it became fulfilled prophecy which still had great depth of meaning and revelation concerning the gospel. Providing excellent opportunity for instruction concerning the continuity of the everlasting gospel throughout our earth’s history. God’s people of the Old Covenant having exercised prophetic faith in the forgiveness of their sins by the sacrifice of the LAMB OF GOD, the Messiah of the Jews. And those of the New Covenant accepting the reality of that sacrifice for them, in the life, crucifixion, and resurrection of Christ Jesus our Lord.

Chapter four becomes more specific in addressing what Mathetes deems to be superstition. Which includes teaching and practices concerning meats, Sabbaths, circumcision, new moons, observation of months and days, some for festivities and others for mourning. Referring to these Old covenant teachings and observances as not just superstition, but actual folly concerning authentic worship. All of these which were commanded to be observed by the very God Mathetes claimed to worship. As though God Himself instituted worthless, superstitious, folly to be observed by the people He Himself chose for a nation to be a witness among all the other nations of this earth. Perhaps Mathetes will expound upon the subject later in more depth, to the proper effect of the real folly concerning all such. In that they were never meant to be the means of salvation which so many of Israel often made them. Nor of course in many cases, meant to be observed by the multitudes of the saved from other nations during the New Covenant dispensation.

Nevertheless, these commanded teachings and observances established by God Himself for Israel never were and or will be mere worthless superstitions or folly. They had exact purpose, intent, value, and lessons of importance for those of the Old Covenant era, none of which has disappeared in this New Covenant era. The lessons and purposes are still there to be studied unto increased knowledge of God’s guidance and providence for His people throughout history. As the New Testament writers themsleves expounded upon, rightly dividing the word of God under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit of God. As the Old Covenant prophets did as well. There is no folly at all in the teachings and observances of the Old Covenant, but by sinful humanity itself in attributing such to the cause of their salvation. Instead of observing that which God commanded and or commands because of their salvation in Him alone. Which very problems exists to this very day, among professed Christianity. Being a natural inclination of our fallen natures, which must always be guarded against.

It is interesting to note that Mathetes makes a distinction between the Sabbaths of the “Jews” which he refers to as superstitions, and the weekly Sabbath day or days of the fourth commandment, which he apparently did not consider to be part of such superstitions. The Lightfoot & Harmer translation translates Mathetes reference to the Sabbaths which it is lawful to do good upon, as sabbath day, not days.

(from: _Apostolic Fathers_ Lightfoot & Harmer, 1891 translation)
4:3 And again to lie against God, as if He forbad us to do any good thing on the sabbath day, is not this profane?

Which testimony is itself a direct reference to the teachings of our Lord Jesus Christ concerning God’s weekly seventh day sabbath established at creation by His word , spoken by the mouth of God and written with His own finger for his chosen people twice among His Ten Commandments. Not the other sabbaths specific to the ceremony, holidays, and or agriculture of the nation of Israel. Those of the law written for them by the hand of Moses.

Mat 12:9 And when he was departed thence, he went into their synagogue: 10 And, behold, there was a man which had his hand withered. And they asked him, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath days? that they might accuse him. 11 And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out? 12 How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days. 13 Then saith he to the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it forth; and it was restored whole, like as the other. 14 Then the Pharisees went out, and held a council against him, how they might destroy him.

Luk 6:6 And it came to pass also on another sabbath, that he entered into the synagogue and taught: and there was a man whose right hand was withered. 7 And the scribes and Pharisees watched him, whether he would heal on the sabbath day; that they might find an accusation against him. 8 But he knew their thoughts, and said to the man which had the withered hand,
Rise up, and stand forth in the midst. And he arose and stood forth. 9 Then said Jesus unto them, I will ask you one thing; Is it lawful on the sabbath days to do good, or to do evil? to save life, or to destroy it ? 10 And looking round about upon them all, he said unto the man, Stretch forth thy hand. And he did so: and his hand was restored whole as the other.

Luk 14:1 And it came to pass, as he went into the house of one of the chief Pharisees to eat bread on the sabbath day, that they watched him. 2 And, behold, there was a certain man before him which had the dropsy. 3 And Jesus answering spake unto the lawyers and Pharisees, saying,
Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath day? 4 And they held their peace. And he took him, and healed him, and let him go; 5 And answered them, saying, Which of you shall have an ass or an ox fallen into a pit, and will not straightway pull him out on the sabbath day? 6 And they could not answer him again to these things.

If in fact God’s seventh day Sabbath had been done away with by the early church, and replaced with a Sunday observance based upon the resurrection, these first two “Church Fathers” under examination address no such thing. Though many might choose to associate Mathetes reference to sabbaths of the Jews being among supposed superstitions which God Himself apparently instituted. His later reference to God’s weekly seventh day Sabbath is problematic to such an idea though. In that he references our Lord’s teaching regarding it, and the mistake which many Jews made in relation to it, without taking any opportunity to address any major changes concerning it. Even though changes and differences between the Jews and Christians was the exact context being discussed. In this Epistle exactly addressing the teachings of the early church, and its differences from the teachings and observances of the Jews.

If indeed Mathetes had already discontinued his observance of God’s seventh day Sabbath, and firmly believed its observance to have been replaced by Sunday observance as the “Lord’s day” in honor of the resurrection, it makes no sense for him to not address such. Neither in this Epistle at all, or even when the Sabbath itself was the exact topic being discussed, regarding the “mode of worshipping God prevalent among the Christians” in his day. Mathetes stated entire reason for this Epistle.
 
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Amo2

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The only observation I’ll make concerning Mathetes chapter 5, is to point out his comment concerning Christinas not having any particular singularity. After which he continues on to list more than just a few. Nevertheless apparently, he still feels no need to point out the new establishment of the observance of the “Lord’s Day”, in honor of Christ’s resurrection. Which would certainly qualify as a singularity among Christians of the time, had it been doctrinally established already. This may have helped clear up certain accused connections between sun worshipers and Christians which developed. At least as Trypho accused and or contended in the Dialogue with Trypho, of Justin Martyr I do believe.

Apart from this, there is the scriptural teaching of course -

2Co 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? 15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? 16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:


While it is not the object of authentic Christianity to seek worldly recognition, neither is its purpose to blend into and disappear within societies or nations. But to the contrary, be different enough from the norms of this world, to be unavoidably noticed. Not unto self recognition or praise, but rather direction toward the exaltation of the One we worship, and the salvation of those who would look upon Him.
 
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