How did the Angelic Fall come about?

LiAnne · May 18, 2004

Aologies but I've lost the thread ... there were two posts but I can't find them again. Hope someone can pick this up and it can run.

I've often wondered about that. If, as it seems, the angels were created with the sole purpose of serving, it doesn't seem likely that they had "free will". So how did they come to fall? Satan is said to have been the most beautiful of the angels so it was possibly pride on his part, and as he is called a "liar from the begining" possibly he led the other angels astray by deceiving them aand encouraging them to join him in open rebellion against God. However, angels are not like humans, and what I've just mentioned are human traits. So how could they have behaved like that? It's very confusing isn't it? Anyone else got any thoughts on this?

Nickolai · May 18, 2004

What you said is pretty much the general concensus on the view. However it's believed that angels have free will as well.

Hix · May 18, 2004

If angels had free will there would have been no reason for G-d to create humans. Angels are created for a purpose and cannot have free will simply becuase they are in the presence of G-d, evil could not exist in G-ds all Holy Presence so they could not rebel against him even if they wanted to.

Also how would evil and sin just come about? If it is Satan that causes such things here on earth then who did so for Satan when he fell?

Nickolai · May 18, 2004

Hix said:
If angels had free will there would have been no reason for G-d to create humans.

That logic doesn't follow through. Animals have free will but G-d still created humans after animals.

Angels are created for a purpose and cannot have free will simply becuase they are in the presence of G-d

So you believe that once we get to Heaven we won't have free will?

evil could not exist in G-ds all Holy Presence so they could not rebel against him even if they wanted to.

Psalm 139"8 "If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell (Sheol), behold, thou art there."

Are yuo telling me there is no evil in Hell (Sheol)?

Also how would evil and sin just come about? If it is Satan that causes such things here on earth then who did so for Satan when he fell?

He sinned himslef. Which is why his punishment was much greater than ours. He sinned sompletly on his own. We were told to sin. He has partial blame for our sin.

devoted daughter · May 18, 2004

LiAnne said:
Aologies but I've lost the thread ... there were two posts but I can't find them again. Hope someone can pick this up and it can run.

I've often wondered about that. If, as it seems, the angels were created with the sole purpose of serving, it doesn't seem likely that they had "free will". So how did they come to fall? Satan is said to have been the most beautiful of the angels so it was possibly pride on his part, and as he is called a "liar from the begining" possibly he led the other angels astray by deceiving them aand encouraging them to join him in open rebellion against God. However, angels are not like humans, and what I've just mentioned are human traits. So how could they have behaved like that? It's very confusing isn't it? Anyone else got any thoughts on this?

They did have free will, as do all the sentient beings God created. 1/3 chose to follow Lucifer who chose to leave God through his pride, and the others followed through their own free will. They are not human, but sentient beings.
peace
DD

Hix · May 18, 2004

Nickolai said:
That logic doesn't follow through. Animals have free will but G-d still created humans after animals.

Animals were created for the benefit of humans according to the Bible. But my point is this, if G-d had created angels with free will he would have no need to create humans with free will to worship him.

Nickolai said:
So you believe that once we get to Heaven we won't have free will?

We wont have free will by your definition, we will still be ourselves but we wont have the inclination to do evil, such a thing could not exist in G-ds presence.

G-ds holiness is like a river, is it possible for a droplet of water to dry up in a river? No not at all, the angels could not stop being holy if they wanted to, becuase G-d is everywere outside of this universe.

Nickolai said:
Psalm 139"8 "If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell (Sheol), behold, thou art there."
Are yuo telling me there is no evil in Hell (Sheol)?

Actually yes I am, the original hebrew translation doesnt say hell at all:

7. Where shall I go from Your spirit, and where shall I flee from Your presence? 8. If I ascend to the heavens, there You are, and if I make my bed in the grave, behold, You are there.

Nickolai said:
He sinned himslef. Which is why his punishment was much greater than ours. He sinned sompletly on his own. We were told to sin. He has partial blame for our sin.

Once again it is impossible that he could sin of his own right unless G-d created evil and made him sin. Do these things conflict with you theologically? We are given the desire to sin becuase of Satan, without Satan we do not have the desire to sin, so too would be the same standards for him, he would have NO reason to sin in the presence of a Holy G-d. such a thing is absolutely absurd.

Shalom and G-d bless
~Hix~

Nickolai · May 18, 2004

Hix said:
Animals were created for the benefit of humans according to the Bible. But my point is this, if G-d had created angels with free will he would have no need to create humans with free will to worship him.

You just don't know that. You are not G-d. Just becuase He didn't have to create us doesn't mean He wouldn't. He didn't have to creat anything. He chose to do so.

We wont have free will by your definition, we will still be ourselves but we wont have the inclination to do evil, such a thing could not exist in G-ds presence.

The inclination of Evil is a consequence of the Fall. Rather different from free will. We can choose to do evil at any time, but that doesn't mean we will be inclined to.

G-ds holiness is like a river, is it possible for a droplet of water to dry up in a river? No not at all, the angels could not stop being holy if they wanted to, becuase G-d is everywere outside of this universe.

I don't know what the stance on free will for angels now is. But we at least know that they had free will at one time.

Actually yes I am, the original hebrew translation doesnt say hell at all:

7. Where shall I go from Your spirit, and where shall I flee from Your presence? 8. If I ascend to the heavens, there You are, and if I make my bed in the grave, behold, You are there.

I am quite aware of what Sheol is. Hence the reason I put it into the quotes in the KJV verse I posted. Sheol was the place where all the souls went under the Old Covanant. It's often called "The grave". Some of these souls whould have to have been unrightious because of sin.

ydouxist · May 18, 2004

Hix said:
If angels had free will there would have been no reason for G-d to create humans. Angels are created for a purpose and cannot have free will simply becuase they are in the presence of G-d, evil could not exist in G-ds all Holy Presence so they could not rebel against him even if they wanted to.

Also how would evil and sin just come about? If it is Satan that causes such things here on earth then who did so for Satan when he fell?

Have you ever done a study on the "Nephilim" in Genesis chapter 6?
Why did Peter write, 2 Peter 2:4 "For if God didn't spare angels when they sinned, but cast them down to Tartarus, and committed them to pits of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;"
The bottom line is they did sin.

nephilimiyr · May 18, 2004

LiAnne said:
Aologies but I've lost the thread ... there were two posts but I can't find them again. Hope someone can pick this up and it can run.

I've often wondered about that. If, as it seems, the angels were created with the sole purpose of serving, it doesn't seem likely that they had "free will". So how did they come to fall? Satan is said to have been the most beautiful of the angels so it was possibly pride on his part, and as he is called a "liar from the begining" possibly he led the other angels astray by deceiving them aand encouraging them to join him in open rebellion against God. However, angels are not like humans, and what I've just mentioned are human traits. So how could they have behaved like that? It's very confusing isn't it? Anyone else got any thoughts on this?

Satan was not in sin when he was first created. If that is true than Satan and the angels that followed him were programed to rebel against God and that isn't how the Bible discribes what Satan was like when he was created.

Ezekiel 28:15-16, Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned; therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

These verses clearly show God had created this covering cherub as a perfect being but because of sin this cherub fell. One cannot sin without having free will. Psalm 18:30, As for God, his way is perfect: the word of the Lord is tried: he is a buckler to all those that trust in him. How can a God who is perfect create an inperfect thing? He can't, God could no more create Satan sinful then he created Adam sinful.

Now in the NT we see that there were angels that sinned. 2 Peter 2:4, For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment
And also in Jude we read Jude 6, And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Now it's possible that God created some angelic beings without free will such as the seraphims and the living creatures but the Bible does make it clear that there are angelic beings with free will.

LiAnne · May 19, 2004

I've been thinking over what you have all been saying and I am wondering what if the following scenario could be true:

God created angels without free will. Their very existence was dominated by their unalienable need to serve God. That was their purpose. However, God wanted His created beings to love Him and serve Him because they wanted to do just that of their own free will not because they had no alternative. God, as a creator, was not satisfied with such unswerving loyalty and service. He, therefore, created some other angels but gave these free will. However, they, too, perhaps influenced by the behaviour of those without free will, were just as single-minded in their service to Him. God, still desiring a freely given outflowing of worship, praise and service then created man within a less prescriptive relationship. He set him little lower than the angels.

However, God gave man dominion over the earth. This upset Satan who felt that his status as the covering cherub conferred on him certain advantages and felt that he had been overlooked. This hurt Satan's pride as he felt that he should have been the one to rule over the earth. This led him to deceive and tempt Adam and Eve to disobey God. He probably did not have the physical form of a serpent but that was more a reference to his nature. As a result Adam and Eve were expelled from Eden. However, so was Satan and that is why he roams the earth like a ravenous lion seeking whom he may devour.

Just a thought but could it be a possibility? I know that there may be very little evidence in the bible to back up this scenario.

God bless!

devoted daughter · May 19, 2004

LiAnne said:
I've been thinking over what you have all been saying and I am wondering what if the following scenario could be true:

God created angels without free will. Their very existence was dominated by their unalienable need to serve God. That was their purpose. However, God wanted His created beings to love Him and serve Him because they wanted to do just that of their own free will not because they had no alternative. God, as a creator, was not satisfied with such unswerving loyalty and service. He, therefore, created some other angels but gave these free will. However, they, too, perhaps influenced by the behaviour of those without free will, were just as single-minded in their service to Him. God, still desiring a freely given outflowing of worship, praise and service then created man within a less prescriptive relationship. He set him little lower than the angels.

However, God gave man dominion over the earth. This upset Satan who felt that his status as the covering cherub conferred on him certain advantages and felt that he had been overlooked. This hurt Satan's pride as he felt that he should have been the one to rule over the earth. This led him to deceive and tempt Adam and Eve to disobey God. He probably did not have the physical form of a serpent but that was more a reference to his nature. As a result Adam and Eve were expelled from Eden. However, so was Satan and that is why he roams the earth like a ravenous lion seeking whom he may devour.

Just a thought but could it be a possibility? I know that there may be very little evidence in the bible to back up this scenario.

God bless!

If God created angels without free will they would all be His slaves. Does that sound like God? If they didnt have a choice it wouldnt be a matter of needing to serve God, they would HAVE to, like robots. They have a different role in His plan. They are creatures, warriors that bring peace, messages, protection, or destruction, whatever is His will but by theyre own volition. Why would He give free will to some and not the others if, as you say, He didnt want unswerving loyalty and service. He gave ALL sentient beings free will for that very reason. There is a story is Jewish mysticism that Satan asked God to give us to him here, and that we could return to God for all eternity. God wouldnt agree to this as he wants us to come to Him by choice.
As for Satans motivation in the garden,. God gave Adam and Eve two commandments: Do not eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge, and be fruitful and multiply. This begs two questions for me: how could they be fruitful and multiply if they didnt know they were naked in the first place until AFTER eating of the tree? Secondly, why did God put it there in the first place? I think it goes back to free will, and in this case, Satan was the pawn. Satan tempted their free will. But, being able to choose was part of Gods plan.
peace
DD

devoted daughter · May 19, 2004

deleted by devoted daughter/repeat post

nephilimiyr · May 19, 2004

LiAnne said:
I've been thinking over what you have all been saying and I am wondering what if the following scenario could be true:

What if's don't work while reading the word of God. God makes it plain and simple that angels have free will. God makes it very, very clear that Satan was created perfect and holy, full of virture and grace but sin was found in him at a latter time. There are no if, ands, or buts at all. There is no possibility of another story, another history to what God has said what happend.

Now if you want to argue that what God has said isn't the stroy then do so but don't try and make the case that there are numerous acounts of the story.

Now maybe you want to dream about things that aren't true and never will be true but there is a story that is true and it's in the Bible. Read it! Don't rely on others to interpret it for you.

What if nothing! learn the real story and forget all the "what ifs"

Empyrean Squire · May 19, 2004

Isaiah 14:12-15
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! 13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. 15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

Satan did sin, and his sin was pride. Pride seems to be at the root of all sin. Satan was behind another sin that was also rooted in pride.

Genesis 3:4-5
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Empyrean Squire · May 19, 2004

I wonder...

I do believe that the angels were given free will, but I've had an idea that would explain how an angel who didn't have free will might sin.

If the chief end of not only man, but all creation, is to glorify God, could God have been as greatly glorified if there had been no fall? (If Jesus didn't have to die in order to redeem us?) What if one of the arch-angels (who I'm sure were created far wiser than we) realized that God could be more greatly glorified if there were an evil force for God to work his glory against, and that in the role of Satan, he could cause God to be glorified more than would otherwise have been possible? This wouldn't make Satan's nature any less evil, but it might explain why an angel (who would know more about the nature and character of God than we) might attempt to work against God.

Just a thought.

nephilimiyr · May 19, 2004

Empyrean Squire said:
If the chief end of not only man, but all creation, is to glorify God, could God have been as greatly glorified if there had been no fall? (If Jesus didn't have to die in order to redeem us?) What if one of the arch-angels (who I'm sure were created far wiser than we) realized that God could be more greatly glorified if there were an evil force for God to work his glory against, and that in the role of Satan, he could cause God to be glorified more than would otherwise have been possible? This wouldn't make Satan's nature any less evil, but it might explain why an angel (who would know more about the nature and character of God than we) might attempt to work against God.

Just a thought.

I believe that the angels were created to govern God's creation and to worship him. They were all created subservient to him and to worship him. It was Helel's(Satan) job to conduct the worship to the Most High. There was a time when it was just God and all his created angels worshipping him. The problem is that Helel eventually wanted to keep some of this worship for himself. The desire to do so got to the point where Helel thought he could overthrow the Most High and keep all the worship to himself. He convinced a number of other angels to act out a mutiny ie Isa. 14. I believe this all happend before God created man.

After this mutiny led by God's highest supreme being; God passed judgment on Helel, whose name changed to Satan, and then created man. I believe God's purpose in createing man is to show all of the angelic world that he alone is God and deserves all the worship. God is out to prove his holyness and greatness and righteousness through us, mankind.

Once this error of sin is corrected then all of Gods creation that has been washed clean will once again rejoice in him and worship him as the almighty living God forever and ever!

LiAnne · May 20, 2004

The bible does not fully explain the situation (perhaps intentionally so) and therefore that's why there is conjecture hence my post. You're telling me to read and believe only what the bible says but nowhere do I read about Satan being called Halel. What bible do you read?

Lynn73 · May 20, 2004

Ezekiel 28:11-19

Click to expand...

11 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. 13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, F136 topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. 14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. 15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. 16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. 17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. 18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. 19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, F137 and never shalt thou be any more.

The devil fell when iniguity was found in him, he was lifted up with pride.If you have objections about the this passage being about Satan, see:

http://users.aristotle.net/~bhuie/satan.htm

A human earthly man couldn't have done the things talked about in this passage: walking on the mountain of God and amidst the stone of fire. He was in the garden of God with every precious stone as his covering. And it calls him a covering cherub which is in reference to the cherubim which are angels. This passage is clearly describing the fall of Satan or Lucifer as he used to be known as imho.

devoted daughter · May 20, 2004

nephilimiyr said:
What if's don't work while reading the word of God. God makes it plain and simple that angels have free will. God makes it very, very clear that Satan was created perfect and holy, full of virture and grace but sin was found in him at a latter time. There are no if, ands, or buts at all. There is no possibility of another story, another history to what God has said what happend.

Now if you want to argue that what God has said isn't the stroy then do so but don't try and make the case that there are numerous acounts of the story.

Now maybe you want to dream about things that aren't true and never will be true but there is a story that is true and it's in the Bible. Read it! Don't rely on others to interpret it for you.

What if nothing! learn the real story and forget all the "what ifs"

nephilimiyr
WELL said!
We can "what if, and should've- would've- could've" so many things to death!
Kudos!
God bless
DD

nephilimiyr · May 21, 2004

LiAnne said:
The bible does not fully explain the situation (perhaps intentionally so) and therefore that's why there is conjecture hence my post.

Actually I agree God leaves out alot of the details but the basic story is there. True, there are some people who don't see it that way. The Ezekiel and Isaiah stories are argued not be talking about Satan at all but earthly human rulers. Many others including myself however believe that they are and that it can be made easy to see without useing conjecture but aplying sound biblical interpretation knowledge.

I see you useing conjecture throughout and I have an arguement for that.

You're telling me to read and believe only what the bible says but nowhere do I read about Satan being called Halel. What bible do you read?

When you go to the Hebrew language in which these passages were writen "Helel" is the name given, not Lucifer.

In the KJV Isa. 14:12 reads, How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! Lucifer is the name given in the English. It's Latin and interestingly is the only Latin word or name given in the OT. The KJ translators wanted a more modern translated name other than the Hebrew name given so they chose Lucifer, mainly because the name means light bearer. However in the Hebrew the name given is Helel. I usually chose to use this name because I see no reason for a Latin name being introduced here. It's close to being like the reason why some people chose to call God Yahweh or jesus Yeshua.

How did the Angelic Fall come about?

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