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How did such a primitive people, get the "order" of creation, or how life came about...

DrBubbaLove

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Hmmm, not sure the folks that [support] evolution can be seen as agreeing [that the idea of theistic evolution] would agree it destroys original sin.

They would probably say as a Pope once said (paraphrasing poorly probably), that even if evolution could be proven to explain how we got these bodies (God still in control of that as well), it will never be able to explain how we got our human soul. In that construct, mankind, the first man, does not exist until God gave us souls. Which then allows the concept of original sin and our sin nature.
 
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-57

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All that would be fine....until....I ask them to lay a few bible verses on my to support that opinion.
 
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Neogaia777

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Ha: the

Ha kadosh: the holy (one) kadosh: holy. Holy, sanctified, set apart

Shem: name, fame, reputation, title of what one is known for. Character.

Ruach: spirit. (Wind, breath) Olam: eternal. Melitz: comforter:helper. Rosh: he. Masculine head. Reshith: beginning, feminine, chief.

Ark. Something that affords protection and safety. In order to hold off or defend or protect from something. Vessel, ship

Flood, deluge: cataclysmic event.

Waters, of a well or spring. Of a river, fertility pregnant about to burst, and bursting.

River: construct??? The four rivers in Eden and the Hebrew meaning of their names is very interesting and revealing as well.

Bird: exact origin of word as applied to feathered creatures is unknown. "To tear and scratch the face of", is it's meaning in early hebrew, which may have nothing at all to do with feathered creatures we now call birds as we know it.

Air. Can mean heavens but also means a firmament, dome of a firmament (which this firmament is actually is a firmament in that it is not empty, but is solid when compared to like "space" for example) but is a layer of a firmament also called a dome of a firmament covering and over or above the ground or earth or dirt and also the sea.

Heaven is described as air between this firmament or earth where ruach hebrew word for spirit or breath (of life) (in a creature or man) or wind of spirit also.

Earth means land or firm or ground or dirt, clay, red. Water, hebrew waters, (described above) a well or spring being "under it".

Sea word origin in hebrew uncertain, can mean, red just like man or land dirt or ground, also can mean "flood" (of invaders) or where flood of invaders can come from.

All this means or amounts to exactly "what" you might say? That if you consider the original language (Ancient Hebrew) that Genesis was written in, especially the creation account, it takes on a whole new meaning that requires a whole other interpretation and how it could be talking about a whole other kind of reality, like a spiritual one, when you consider the meanings of the Hebrew language and words that it was written in and their meanings. No other language can do it justice.

Every word in Genesis and much of the originally Hebrew Bible, has a totally different meaning, and therefore a totally different interpretation, than what we only "think", (and have therefore "assumed" for so many years), than we only "think" it actually means... And you know what they say happens when you/me "assume" things don't you?

Well, there it is......

The word "bird" or fowl of the air, they do not know how the Hebrew word translated "bird" or "fowl" is connected to the feathered creatures we know, in fact it suggests that it may not even have anything to do at all with the feathered creatures of the air or heavens that we know of... And "air" or heavens in Hebrew is unclear also...

In the Heavenly realm of that kind of reality, their is a "sea" for example, but, it is not exactly like the "sea" that we know of, cause it's describing something only "like" a "sea" in that other kind of reality, their is land or earth or dirt or ground, but not like the ground or land or dirt that we know of, yet is like it in a way, but in a metaphorical or symbolic sense...

Almost everything especially in the beginnings of Genesis, if you look into the meaning of the Hebrew words used, are metaphorical and symbolic, a metaphorical "sea" or waters in their reality, that is only like what we know of here, but not "exactly like" it, at least, not in a literal sense...

God Bless!
 
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Michael Scaman

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How did such a primitive people, get the "order" of creation, or how life came about right? According to evolution? How did they know, unless they had "help"?

God Bless!

God was there and could inspire a book about it. Additionally God spoke face to face with Moses, and Moses as editor for the 5 books which included Genesis could record it.
 
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DrBubbaLove

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All that would be fine....until....I ask them to lay a few bible verses on my to support that opinion.
Which opinion, that God gave us souls or that the Creation story could be understood as supportive of a theistic evolution process explaining how our bodies came to the shape humans have or the false opinion that theistic evolution is incompatible with the idea of original sin ?

All seem rather obviously supported by MANY various understandings of the Creation story, with the equally obvious and singular exception of a very completely literal understanding of those stories.

The point is theistic evolution does not conflict with anything but a very selective and singular understanding of those verses. Which in itself is inconsistent as it typically picks and chooses what elements of those stories MUST be considered literal and other things that do not have to be as strictly literal.
 
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Michael Scaman

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I don't see how theistic evolution is consistent with Genesis 1 at all. The order of creation is wrong. Man from dust is wrong. Man starting as vegetarian is not consistent. Man and animals eating only plants is not consistent.... no death in the world till Adam sinned doesn't match theistic evolution.... it doesn't match

What is a theistic evolution explanation of woman from Adam's side?
Adam would feel that one... and know Even was made from him and for him experientially
 
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DrBubbaLove

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Like I said - it is inconsistent with only a singular and very conveniently selective literal understanding of those verses - and that, in the above expression at least, obviously even sprinkled with healthy bedazzling of ideas from no verses at all - like entire animal kingdom being vegetarians and no death.

Example, the no death part is literal reference to Adam's access to the Tree of Life (Jesus) - which there is not mention of animals access to same "Tree" and even in a very literally understanding of that text requiring Adam to eat of a plant, his being kept from that plant says literally NOTHING about keeping animals from same plant - just as NOTHING is said about all animals eating from same plant (and so also not dying). For that matter, since strictly literally speaking this is a singular specific plant rather than a plant species - it is then literally impossible to imagine globally all animals being able to eat from that one plant (and so not die) .

So my point was before one starts pointing the "inconsistent" finger at someone else talking about theistic evolution, my suggest was and still is that one's own view is less than consistent and very much less than completely or just literal. That much is evident by what the above post added to what is literally present in those verses (vegetarians and no animal/maybe plant death either)
 
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-57

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Would you be so kind as to tell all of us how forming Eve from Adams rib....doesn't conflict with Theo-evoism?
 
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-57

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To add to that the bible tells us....therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned....and...For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead.

...which happens to be a major bigtime problem for the theo-evo...as they have no explanation for original sin and mans sin nature.
 
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DrBubbaLove

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Would you be so kind as to tell all of us how forming Eve from Adams rib....doesn't conflict with Theo-evoism?
From the Creation stories, the idea and order of the family being reflected in how God made things to be. Such thoughts are consistent regardless how one believes God gave us the bodies we have. The literal expressions in every theistic view (including theistic evolution) of those stories associates the CONCEPTS presented with an act of God. Whether the sparse details actually literally given accurately reflect what was actually done is not the point of telling such stories. What does it matter if God made Eve from Adam's rib or His right arm or his right hip or gave us all the bodies we have by guiding what can only be seen as a unique evolutionary path eventually to what we call homo sapiens a human soul for example. The point is the expression means something and it does not have to mean what it literally says, but whatever we suggest it means - we should be consistent in our view of it and that God did it all.

If the fuller expression of the Pope's comments on evolution were properly presented one would see a man who actually does not believe that theory either adequately explains our bodies or will ever be proven as there are too many holes in it. But to reassure the faithful he is saying even if it could be proven we need not concern ourselves as it cannot exp[lain how we got souls.]

We do not have [to] take those details given in Genesis to literally view God like some Supernatural version of an alien genetic experiment literally slicing and dicing His Creation in order to say that story declares that He Created all life and gave the order it obviously has. The stories are simply the basis for offering us reflection on what is expressed there - that God created everything (and for most of us did so out of nothing). The story is not meant to restrict God in any manner as to exactly how He may or may not have done that, which I would submit a very literal view of those stories does restrict Him - and rather do[es] so in a way which humanizes our concept of God.

Expressing the concept that man and woman were made by God for each other, that the order He alone gave things which requires it all to be so, and that in all His Creation His Work is uniquely special for humans as the foundational unit of human society ordained by God; none of that requires us to view that as something that is ONLY expressible or understandable by our taking ONLY a very (conveniently) selective and literal view of the account of God's actions.

Why for example decide the literal taking of a rib can only be understood a slice and dice, experimental lab like creation of a companion for a lonely guy and accept a non-literal understanding of what it means for God to "rest". Or does God literally need something (or anything) like "rest" too?
 
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Michael Scaman

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What is a theistic evolution explanation of woman from Adam's side
 
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-57

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You just presented me with 5 paragraphs that allowes God to lie. You presented 5 paragraphs that white wash the Word of God. Read this slowly.......The book of Genesis doesn't say God used evolutionism to create.....The book of Genesis informs us of a process called special creation.
 
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DrBubbaLove

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Saying a myth teaches a truth is not calling the teller of the myth a liar. That reply was "kindly" offered because it was requested.

Read this slowly. Thanks for holding such a high opinion of the faith of fellow Christians.
 
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-57

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Saying a myth teaches a truth is not calling the teller of the myth a liar. That reply was "kindly" offered because it was requested.

Read this slowly. Thanks for holding such a high opinion of the faith of fellow Christians.

That would be like saying....Jesus didn't really die on the cross.... The mythical death of Christ was just a teaching point about sacrifice.
 
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DrBubbaLove

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That would be like saying....Jesus didn't really die on the cross.... The mythical death of Christ was just a teaching point about sacrifice.
If someone cannot recognize the difference many millennium makes in human history, or the fact that the Creation story pre-existed human writing and the Mosaic era by probably as least as long, or the fact the stories are offered in a completely different style than the rest of Genesis let alone most of the rest of the Bible and especially the relatively modern NT; then am sure they could imagine all sorts of things are being said that in truth are not said at all.

To point fingers like that while insisting on a singular literal understanding that is not even consistently applied within the same story is audacious at best (trying to remain charitable here).

Having said that, for everyone else present and not of the same mind set - none of the last two opinions offered of my comments regarding the Creation stories is a fair or honest assessment of it.

Again, thanks for holding onto such a high opinion of the faith of other Christians.
 
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-57

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One has to wonder how you come to your conclusions. The authors of the old and new testaments present the Genesis account as literal.....and you feel you have the liberty to distort it.
I already showed you that one can using your mind set create a myth out of the death and reason for it.
 
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DrBubbaLove

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And I already addressed the flaw in claiming to hold a literal only position when even that is not literally true. As well as the flaws in suggesting calling something a myth or story makes the author a liar.

We could try again as obviously the flaw in the "literal" claims made here was overlooked. Does God literally "need" something or anything?
 
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-57

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DrBubbaLove, you still don't get it...Genesis is presented as literal in the bible. Over and over. Just because the Pope, fallible Pope...tells you, you can believe in evolutionism and it does no harm to the bible doesn't make it so.
 
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DrBubbaLove

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DrBubbaLove, you still don't get it...Genesis is presented as literal in the bible. Over and over. Just because the Pope, fallible Pope...tells you, you can believe in evolutionism and it does no harm to the bible doesn't make it so.
Proud to boast indeed. Why be afraid to answer what God needs then?
 
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