How did Jesus pay our sin debt?

[Rasmus2]

Our sins are a debt (https://carm.org/is-sin-a-legal-debt-to-god)
And Jesus said "It is finished" when He paid the debt. Did He pay our sins with His blood?

 

[Radrook]

Our sins are a debt (https://carm.org/is-sin-a-legal-debt-to-god)
And Jesus said "It is finished" when He paid the debt. Did He pay our sins with His blood?

What confuses people is why that payment is necessary in the first place. Why not simply declare people forgiven. The reason is that God's attributes of perfect Love, Justice and Wisdom generate requirements that God feels impelled to satisfy. The requirement that sin needed to be castigated by deprivation of life and that such a punishment could only be nullified in relation to sinful mankind if a sinless, undeserving-of-death person voluntarily died in their place is one of them.

BTW
Blood in the Bible symbolizes life.

 

[Psalm3704]

He took upon Himself the sins of the world. After He did that, He said it is finished, then God momentarily turn His back on Christ. God and sin are like Superman and kryptonite, they just won't mix.

Jesus then cried out "My God, My God, Why Have You Forsaken Me?" Matthew 27:46

That's how badly God doesn't want to be around sin.







.

 

[Radrook]

He took upon Himself the sins of the world. After He did that, He said it is finished, then God momentarily turn His back on Christ. God and sin are like Superman and kryptonite, they just won't mix.

Jesus then cried out "My God, My God, Why Have You Forsaken Me?" Matthew 27:46

That's how badly God doesn't want to be around sin.

True! Sin and God are totally incompatible. In that sense mankind had been abandoned by God and in desperate need of redemption. Jesus expressed that feeling of an abandoned mankind just prior to his death because he had taken on that abandoned condition by assuming responsibility for its sin.

 

[Ken Rank]

Our sins are a debt (https://carm.org/is-sin-a-legal-debt-to-god)
And Jesus said "It is finished" when He paid the debt. Did He pay our sins with His blood?

Adam was created perfect, he was not designed to taste death. Before Adam sinned, to put a picture on this, it was "as if" he was plugged into God. God was Adam's source for all understanding, for everything... Adam relied on God for all things. When he sinned it was "as if" Adam unplugged from God and from that time on many things changed. Not only did Adam have to choose for himself between what is good and what is evil, but he also had to work hard for the rest of his days WHILE decaying and dying. Since Adam, we are all born with a clock ticking toward our death, we will decay in the process of time leading to death, and we have been choosing, mostly poorly, between good and evil.

When Yeshua (Jesus) came on the scene he too came into this world perfect, without sin. Paul even calls him "the second Adam." And like the first Adam he was tempted with sin but unlike the first Adam, he did not give into temptation. When Yeshua died, he died having never sinned and when placed in the grave, the grave could not hold him because the grave was not designed to contain perfection, only sin.. the wages of sin is death and he didn't sin.

So his life, the sinless blood he shed, all of it reversed the curse of sin and death because he undid what the first Adam had done. Now we can "plug back" into God by submitting to Him as Lord and allowing Him, again, to define what He desires of us. We still die, we still decay... and this is something that Yeshua's work has also overcome, but this aspect has not been applied yet. We will either be changed at His coming or raise from the grave and be changed. So... some things still stand before us.

 

[bling]

Our sins are a debt (https://carm.org/is-sin-a-legal-debt-to-god)
And Jesus said "It is finished" when He paid the debt. Did He pay our sins with His blood?

You might take note of the fact Jesus said: “It is finished” prior to His actual death, so His physical death is not part of what was needed to complete this task?

Jesus, Paul, John, Peter and the Hebrew writer all call this torture, humiliation and murder the ransom payment and Jesus did not say: “It is like a ransom payment”, but it is actually a ransom payment?

If Jesus’ cruel torture, humiliation and murder were a “debt payment” then it would not be a ransom payment which is totally different. A debt payment is made to a deserving party while a ransom payment is made to an undeserving party. A debt payment is owed by the captive victim while the ransom payment is not the kidnap victim’s responsibility. A debt payment is a fixed amount set by the debtor actions while the ransom payment is set by the kidnapper and can be totally unreasonable. There is no choice in accepting or rejecting the set amount of the payment of the debt while with a ransom payment the kidnapper can always reject the payment no matter how great.

If Jesus is paying the “debt of sin” then there is debt to be forgiven, yet scripture talks of our debt being forgiven. If the debt is forgiven then there nothing for Christ to pay?

Yes, our sin do create an unbelievable huge debt which cannot be paid by any means, but it can be forgiven by God and God/Christ did forgiven sins even prior to the cross, so was the debt forgiven or paid and if you say both, why?

We need to look beyond just the one verse in Col.:

Col. 2: , 13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. 15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

Paul starts out saying: “He forgave us all our sins”, then Paul goes on to talk about the legal system which brings charge against us (the Old Law) and it is this “Old Law” which has been nailed to the cross. The Old Law stood against us and condemned us and it was those Jewish Spiritual leaders just prior to the cross which needed to be disarmed. It does not say: Our sins went to the cross, since Paul just said: “our sins were forgiven”, so what is there to be taken to the cross?

 

[ver 2-10]

Our sins are a debt (Is sin a legal debt to God? | CARM Christian Apologetics & Research Ministry)
And Jesus said "It is finished" when He paid the debt. Did He pay our sins with His blood?

I believe that he paid the debs so far till his death, not the future sins. No one can be mass murder and go to Heaven.

 

[MWood]

Jesus' death and Shed Blood paid for all sin from the beginning of Adam and Eve to the end of time. If He didn't, then every one from the time of His death until the end of time will still have their sin, and have no hope of every having eternal life in heaven.
In the Hebrews the scripture says that there is no remission of sin without the shedding of blood. The blood of bulls and goats were not enough to forgive the sin, so Jesus' blood is the only perfect blood that could be shed for the forgiving of sin. And Jesus will die no more. All sins, of all time have been forgiven.

 

[Ron Gurley]

All true Christ-followers are covered by the "Blood of Christ"!

(all cites NASB)

1 John 1:7
but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another,
and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

Revelation 1:5 (NASB)
5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood.

1 Peter 1:2,19-21
2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father,
by the sanctifying work of the Spirit,
to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood:...19 but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ.
20 For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you 21 who THROUGH Him are believers in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

1 John 5:6(NASB)
6 This is the One who came by water(HUMAN BIRTH?) and (SHED?)blood, Jesus Christ; not with the water only, but with the water and with the blood.
It is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.

Ephesians 2:13(NASB)
13 But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off
have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

1 Corinthians 10:16(NASB)
16 Is not the cup of blessing which we bless a sharing in the blood of Christ?
Is not the bread which we break a sharing in the body of Christ?

Hebrews 10....One Blood Sacrifice of Christ Is Sufficient
19 Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus,
The OLD Covenant between God and Man / His "chosen people" required a "blood" sacrifice
to cover annually the sins of the people Israel. E.g. See: Hebrews 9.

Under the NEW Covenant in Jesus' blood with all believers, ...>

Hebrews 9 (NASB) ...The Old and the New: Sacrifices and Covenants
....but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption....
...but now once at the consummation of the ages,
He has been manifested to put away sin by the (bloody) sacrifice of Himself.
27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,
28 so Christ also,
having been offered once to bear the sins of many,
will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him. (SECOND COMING?


Hebrews 10....One Blood Sacrifice of Christ Is Sufficient
...4 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins....
10 By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.....
18 Now where there is forgiveness of these things (lawless deeds) , there is no longer any offering for sin...
19 Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus,
20 by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh,
21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God,
22 let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith,
having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.

 

[Soyeong]

What confuses people is why that payment is necessary in the first place. Why not simply declare people forgiven. The reason is that God's attributes of perfect Love, Justice and Wisdom generate requirements that God feels impelled to satisfy. The requirement that sin needed to be castigated by deprivation of life and that such a punishment could only be nullified in relation to sinful mankind if a sinless, undeserving-of-death person voluntarily died in their place is one of them.

BTW
Blood in the Bible symbolizes life.

It is possible to cancel someone else's debt only by paying what they owe on their behalf and the same holds true if you are the holder of that debt. For instance, if someone owed you more money than they could pay back, so you decided to cancel their debt, it wouldn't be as simple as just wiping the books clean because you would still be out the money that you lent them, but rather you would have to essentially pay their debt for them in their place. The wages of sin is death, so in order for God to forgive our sins, He would need to pay that debt for us in our place. Someone who has sinned would owe their own debt, so they would not be free to pay the debt of others.

 

[Ron Gurley]

REDEMPTION

Ephesians 1:7 (all NASB)
In Him we have redemption through His blood,
the forgiveness of our trespasses,
according to the riches of His grace


Col. 1:14...in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.


redemption...Greek 629...apolytrōsis...(freed by paying a price!)
I.a releasing effected by payment of ransom...deliverance
B.liberation procured by the payment of a ransom

In theology, redemption is forgiveness or absolution for past sins or errors and protection from damnation and disgrace, eternal or temporary, generally through a (ransom) sacrifice.

Mark 10:45
For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve,
and to give His life a ransom for many.”

SEE: Redeem, Redemption - Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology Online

Redemption means to free someone from bondage.
It often involves the paying of a ransom, a price that makes redemption possible.
The Israelites were redeemed from Egypt.
We were redeemed from the power of sin and the curse of the Law (Gal. 3:13)
through Jesus (Rom. 3:24, Col. 1:14).
We were bought with a price (1 Cor. 6:20, 7:23).

Redemption | carm

 

[HenryM]

Adam was created perfect, he was not designed to taste death.

Those are two big statements, which aren't expressed in the Bible. At the same time, Adam did sin and he did die because of his sin. That alone quite strongly suggests he was neither perfect nor designed not to taste death.

Adam was alive thanks to the three of life, which was not part of his being but outside of him (Genesis 2:9). That means he was, in fact, designed to taste death, but didn't deteriorate as long as he ate from the tree of life. As soon as he was banned from it (Genesis 3:22-24), he deteriorated until death.

It would be rather remarkable that omnipotent God created first man, perfect man, with intention for that man to live forever, and then that same man both sinned and died. Quite remarkable that omnipotent God creates something with one purpose, and then said creation messes with God's plan and becomes opposite of what God intended it for. Thankfully, Bible says that's not how things are (Proverbs 19:21, Proverbs 16:9, Proverbs 16:3, Jeremiah 10:23, James 4:13-16, Isaiah 46:10, Psalms 115:3, Philippians 2:13, Proverbs 16:4, Job 14:5, Proverbs 16:33, Psalms 33:10-11...).

When Adam explains himself to God after he sinned, what does Adam do? He exclusively blames God and Eve for the bite he took (Genesis 3:12). Doesn't seem like perfect behavior of a perfect man, I'd say. And what standard of perfection is that if all it takes is a bite to crumble it?

What's the real answer, then, as it seems to be revealed in the Bible? It's this - that God created Adam and Eve with purpose for them to sin, as a start of His plan for adoption.

To the OP:

Sorry for derailing the thread a bit... Here's my answer to your question.

I think Jesus took on Himself penalty for all sins for all who are saved. I think it was an unimaginable torturous experience outside of our realm. We saw Jesus on the cross, but Him taking penalty for people's sins was not happening in our world, but in other realm, just as penalty for unbelievers doesn't happen in this world, but in hell. I don't think Jesus took on penalty for some abstract sins, but for precise number of sins, for precise number of people. God reveals Himself through the Bible and natural world as God of precision, so I think there was a precision of Jesus' payment for sins too.

(I just realized this was an old thread, reawaken by somebody recently...)

 

[Ken Rank]

Those are two big statements, which aren't expressed in the Bible. At the same time, Adam did sin and he did die because of his sin. That alone quite strongly suggests he was neither perfect nor designed not to taste death.

Adam was alive thanks to the three of life, which was not part of his being but outside of him (Genesis 2:9). That means he was, in fact, designed to taste death, but didn't deteriorate as long as he ate from the tree of life. As soon as he was banned from it (Genesis 3:22-24), he deteriorated until death.

It would be rather remarkable that omnipotent God created first man, perfect man, with intention for that man to live forever, and then that same man both sinned and died. Quite remarkable that omnipotent God creates something with one purpose, and then said creation messes with God's plan and becomes opposite of what God intended it for. Thankfully, Bible says that's not how things are (Proverbs 19:21, Proverbs 16:9, Proverbs 16:3, Jeremiah 10:23, James 4:13-16, Isaiah 46:10, Psalms 115:3, Philippians 2:13, Proverbs 16:4, Job 14:5, Proverbs 16:33, Psalms 33:10-11...).

When Adam explains himself to God after he sinned, what does Adam do? He exclusively blames God and Eve for the bite he took (Genesis 3:12). Doesn't seem like perfect behavior of a perfect man, I'd say. And what standard of perfection is that if all it takes is a bite to crumble it?

What's the real answer, then, as it seems to be revealed in the Bible? It's this - that God created Adam and Eve with purpose for them to sin, as a start of His plan for adoption.

Like many (all) words, "perfect" has more then one meaning, Henry. It can mean "without blemish" or "unable to tarnish" but it can also simply mean "complete." Adam was not God, was not made equal to God, therefore was not "perfect" in the sense of having an inability to fall short of God. Adam was "good" and exactly what God designed him to be, therefore he was "complete" or tawmien ( תָּמִים ) a Hebrew word that simply means, "complete, whole, entire, sound" (Brown Driver Briggs, definition #1).

Regarding Adam not being designed to die, he simply wasn't. The wages of sin is death and when Adam sinned, death was introduced into creation... a clock began to tick on all living things, not just himself but all he had dominion over.

I do not believe that Adam died "spiritually" when he sinned... I believe this was a physical punishment, he literally began to die. And that why, when we are born, our clocks are already ticking.

 

[HenryM]

Regarding Adam not being designed to die, he simply wasn't. The wages of sin is death and when Adam sinned, death was introduced into creation... a clock began to tick on all living things, not just himself but all he had dominion over.

If by complete you mean Adam was complete as God intended him for His purpose, and that purpose was for Adam to sin, then I agree that Adam was complete in that sense.

When perfect is used in scripture it's usually used to mean maturity towards God, righteousness (Genesis 17:1, Job 1:1, Matthew 5:48, 2 Timothy 3:17). I don't know if Adam is described as mature, righteous, so by that application of the word perfect, he was not perfect. When Peter denied Jesus, Peter cried. When Adam denied God by sinning, he blamed both God and Eve (Genesis 3:12).

Also, can you put aside explicit scripture and then add your interpretation and make it so? If God planted the tree of life into the garden (Genesis 2:9), Adam was kept alive and (probably) not-deteriorating because he ate from tree of life. As soon as God banned him from the tree of life (Genesis 3:22-24), Adam started to deteriorate and die. As such, death was not literally introduced into Adam, but Adam was denied access to the tree of life, and left on his own, he died.

 

[Ken Rank]

If by complete you mean Adam was complete as God intended him for His purpose, and that purpose was for Adam to sin, then I agree that Adam was complete in that sense.

Henry, it would save us time and allow for better communication, if you read what I wrote you.

Me>> "Adam was "good" and exactly what God designed him to be, therefore he was "complete" or tawmien ( תָּמִים ) a Hebrew word that simply means, "complete, whole, entire, sound" (Brown Driver Briggs, definition #1)."

You respond with, "If by complete you mean Adam was complete as God intended him for His purpose" which is almost exactly what I said. So obviously we agree since you all but quote me. Notice also the definitions from one of the more respected Hebrew lexicons? Not perfect in the manner in which we define the word in modern English, but perfect as in "complete, whole, entire"... i.e. all God intended him to be.

When perfect is used in scripture it's usually used to mean maturity towards God, righteousness (Genesis 17:1, Job 1:1, Matthew 5:48, 2 Timothy 3:17). I don't know if Adam is described as mature, righteous, so by that application of the word perfect, he was not perfect. When Peter denied Jesus, Peter cried. When Adam denied God by sinning, he blamed both God and Eve (Genesis 3:12).

I would suggest you are using the English definition of a Hebrew word that doesn't exactly match the word "perfect" as we use it... but that was the closest word we had to match it.

Also, can you put aside explicit scripture and then add your interpretation and make it so? If God planted the tree of life into the garden (Genesis 2:9), Adam was kept alive and (probably) not-deteriorating because he ate from tree of life. As soon as God banned him from the tree of life (Genesis 3:22-24), Adam started to deteriorate and die. As such, death was not literally introduced into Adam, but Adam was denied access to the tree of life, and left on his own, he died.

Yes, and again, if you had actually read my post to you, you would realize that you are just about quoting me.