He got kicked out of a Pentecostal church and only about 15-20 people have been attending his services for the past few years. Though at least it is consistent with Matthew 7:13-14 which seems to be a central teaching of his.
This post is based on an interesting article I read at the Cross Examined blog by Patheos blogger Bob Seidenstecker. I thought it made a good point worth discussing. My post is mostly quoting it.
NB - this post is primarily directed to Christians who believe that a literal hell exists. If you have some other view on hell, you may feel that this argument does not affect you.
The post begins:
"Could you enjoy heaven knowing of the agony of those in hell? What if those in hell are your loved ones?
Medieval Christian theologian Thomas Aquinas turned the problem around by embracing that torment:
In order that the happiness of the saints may be more delightful to them and that they may render more copious thanks to God for it, they are allowed to see perfectly the sufferings of the damned.
Many Christians have seized this lemons-to-lemonade opportunity. Thinkers from the early church such as Tertullian and Augustine down to Jonathan Edwards in his famous 1741 sermon “Sinners in the hands of an angry god” and beyond have not avoided but celebrated the pain of hell, imagining those in heaven looking over the ramparts and delighting in the anguish of those far below (more).
That doesn’t provide much support for C.S. Lewis’s famous claim, “The gates of hell are locked from the inside.”
...
Such thinking continues today. Popular Christian theologian R.C. Sproul told of one of his teachers saying, "In heaven, you will be so sanctified that you will be able to see your own mother in hell and rejoice in that, knowing that God’s perfect justice is being carried out." (video @19:35).
Who’d want to go to heaven if you’ll turn into that?
Christians often rationalize hell by pointing to Revelation 21:4, where “[God] will wipe every tear from their eyes . . . [and there will be] no more mourning or crying or pain.” If God will remove all sorrow in heaven, then somehow hell won’t bother us. It’s not clear how (the Bible doesn’t even admit the problem), but Christians have come up with various ideas to insulate those in heaven from hell.
Christianity StackExchange cites a popular though childish rationalization:
A common argument goes: There is no sadness in Heaven. If I knew that this person I loved was in Hell that would certainly make me very sad. Therefore it must be that I won’t remember them.
...
The Stand to Reason podcast (here @12:11) expands on this:
So we are not going to spend eternity reflecting on the anguish of our loved ones who have not received the mercy of God through the love of Christ. That would put a damper on things. But those things are going to be forgotten. . . . [Even if there were a fleeting memory of them,] it will be a reflection from God’s perspective, that they are getting judged justly, and that’s a good thing, and we have escaped justice and received mercy instead, and that’s a good thing, too.
Yeah, thinking of billions in torment in hell—or even just a handful of loved ones who didn’t make the cut—would put a damper on your pleasure in heaven, wouldn’t it? We certainly can’t have a loved one’s anguish ruining our picnic. But don’t imagine God would actually solve the problem and eliminate the injustice of perpetual conscious torment in hell. Instead, we either lose memories of those loved ones or smother any tender memory with the thought that, but for the grace of God, that could be us.
This is the “Sucks to be you” approach to justice. I got mine, and you’re burning in hell. God approved both placements, even though no human merits heaven. But of course if the tables were turned (you in heaven and me in hell), the justification would be equally valid—one of us is where justice demands they go, while the other subverted justice and lives in heaven.
...
William Lane Craig (WLC) has something to offer on this topic. He is quoted in the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy:
[Craig hypothesizes] that God could simply “obliterate” from the minds of the redeemed “any knowledge of lost persons so that they experience no pangs of remorse for them.”
...
“Welcome to heaven! It won’t be so bad once we erase your memory.”
WLC tosses out another possibility.
The experience of being in Christ’s immediate presence will be so overwhelming for the redeemed that they will not think of the damned in hell (Source).
So where does that leave us? Christians themselves tell us that heaven is so hellish that to endure it, one’s memory of loved ones must be erased. Alternatively, one must be distracted, forever."
I wonder which side different members of Christian Forums fall on on this question?
Thank you for the link. I read through it. The thing is, it seems to be simply accounts of dreams and visions. All very comforting, but not very convincing, even to other Christians.I fall on the "will wipe every tear from their eyes" side. But moving on. I think sometimes about people in prison and how bad it must be to be locked away. Just that, locked away. No freedom, no coming and going as you please, no nothing you like to do. Just being locked away. Oftentimes for life. I never think "sucks to be you" but I do think "I'm glad I'm not there". And that's about it. But anyways. This might help you a bit:
How the prayers of those on earth can help those who are in hell
Yes. BTW Bart's last name is "Ehrman"I assume you are talking about the preacher and not Bart.
I think he is sincere. He preaches about not being a man-pleaser... lately he's been hiding his first name on the Internet. He's written at least 14 books over the past few years and none of them are for sale - he gives them away. In his sermons he talks about how he believes the Holy Spirit has given him messages.I'm fairly sure at this point that the preacher is biased and compromised in his perspective.
Yes. BTW Bart's last name is "Ehrman"
I think he is sincere. He preaches about not being a man-pleaser... lately he's been hiding his first name on the Internet. He's written at least 14 books over the past few years and none of them are for sale - he gives them away. In his sermons he talks about how he believes the Holy Spirit has given him messages.
Hello Pavel. I'm very glad you liked it! But in all honesty, I cannot claim credit. It belongs to Seidenstecker on his blog, Cross Examined.Dear @InterestedAtheist congratulations on what I think may be the best researched thread I have ever seen on this Forum! (I worked a little on Christian Stack Exchange as a contributor) and never seen anybody other than me reference it. I also have dabbled a little with the Jewish Stack Exchange)
I guess I am mostly with @HTacianas , but I do have some "River of Fire" hopes, which believes that Heaven and Hell are not so much places in the afterlife but states of being how we receive the all encompassing love of God.
What is the River of Fire? | MYSTAGOGY RESOURCE CENTER
Or against God being good.Yes, I think this is one of the important arguments against hell as a place of eternal conscious torment.
Never the less, it is William Lane Craig, commonly acknowledged as one of the more famous apologists, who suggests that we will simply not remember the suffering ones in hell.All the answers you quoted and the responses you received are basically similar. But "wipe our tears" does not mean "erase our memories." Note that "love" is not erased from our memories but remains forever:
1Co 13:13 Three things will last forever—faith, hope, and love—and the greatest of these is love.
Every few months, one of the agnostics posts the same question and receives the same answers. Why not do some research for different points of view?
And why do you care for an answer when you don't believe in life after death?
This is quote a leap of logic, and I would say an unwarranted one. Perhaps we can assume that Satan was dissatisfied with the state of affairs in heaven while he was there, but that does not mean he experienced torment while he was there.Well, I enjoy love, right now, even though I know there are horribly miserable people. I care about them, but I can't change them to be loving and caring people. I do pray for them, in order for God to change them.
But I have been no better than anyone else. God had mercy on me, to change me. So, that is His choice; and I honor His choice, by being blessed in His love if and as much as I am. And do what I can to help others to share with God and not suffer torment of sin.
Sin is what causes the suffering, in this life and in hell. That is the active ingredient . . . not the fire, really
Satan was in Heaven. But because of his own sin problem, he was unable to benefit from being there. And possibly he was in torment . . . of his pride not being satisfied, even right in Heaven itself with Jesus who is God's own Son so pleasing to God Himself. If Satan was there with Jesus but not at all pleased with Jesus, then Satan had a major problem which was himself.
So, where do you put a being who suffers torment while in Heaven????
While I love Star Trek, and kudos to you for thinking of the idea, it has no support from the Bible or any part of the Christian religion.Must it...? What if it were just the worst side of them and the best of them was standing beside the best of you? What if... separating the sheep from the goats, it wasn't that THIS person was a sheep, and THAT person was a goat, but that there was BOTH sheep and goat within each to some degree. Perhaps one larger than the other, perhaps one growing and the other withering. But all the same, two things distinct and needing a final separation and separate destinations.
I'm deviating wildly from accepted theological interpretations here, but I did want to present an example to consider where the saved in heaven would shout "amen hallelujah!" and bid a hearty farewell to their own damned shadows. And also to say that "Must" is a strong word to use in the context of the discussion. But if it can be done on StarTrek by accident, it could be done in Heaven by intent and mercy. Whether it will be, I don't know. And I think it best to start the process here and to ask for a Sheep to be planted and then for the Shepherd to tend to it... But I don't put it (or something like it) outside the realm of God's power... Hence, I am not worried about "the horrors of Heaven". I would expect to find all that I truly loved or was truly loved by in anyone I ever met right there beside me, and probably nothing of anything else (either in them or in me).
A good point! But at least while you are on earth you do not know that the loved one is in hell. But what if, once you are in heaven, you could actually look down, and see your wife, your mother, your little son, being tortured in horrible agony, FOREVER.No more than those who are living now, believing that a loved one has gone to hell already! How can anyone be happy, even on this earth, with that thought? We do not go to heaven or hell when we die, and hell does not go on forever. Hell is for the wicked and they pay only according to their works.
A good point! But at least while you are on earth you do not know that the loved one is in hell. But what if, once you are in heaven, you could actually look down, and see your wife, your mother, your little son, being tortured in horrible agony, FOREVER.
Would you feel okay with that? Would just shrug your shoulders and say, "Well, they must have deserved it, otherwise they wouldn't be there," and enjoy the delights of heaven without giving them another thought?
Not cavalierly at all.I don't think it would be something to be taken cavalierly, but suffice to say, that's more or less it, yes. We would see "looking back" that God was just in his judgements.
This preacher rarely refers to the Bible though "Our services are noted for their anointed preaching and teaching and the signs and wonders that accompany them"
Would heaven not be a horrible place to live in, if every moment you knew that your loved ones were being tormented?
Not cavalierly at all.
The thought that I might one day be in a place of wonder and delight, but looking down upon my little son burning in agony forever, fills me with horror.
I just wonder how any Christian who does believe in a literal hell can reconcile this with a God of love.
Though his signs and wonders aren't "great".Hebrews 4:12
24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
Sorry, John, I missed that.InterestedAtheist:
Could you please comment on post #12? While I'm not a fan of his my two sisters are. There is also post #16 - you can get a taste of it by listening for 9 minutes.
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?