A poor arguement, the Romans were more advanced than earlier societies too, should we therefore credit their religious ideas? In fact much of the progress post-renaissance is firmly based on ideas originating in non-Judeo-Christian cultures which were only re-examined at the time of the renaissance.
Materially. the Romans were very advanced. In humanistic terms, Rome was as neanderthal as any society that came before.
We should, however, credit the many of the graeco-roman ideas that provided fertial philosophical grounds from which the Christian humanistic seed could grow from.
I have to be frank here, if you dont believe that hedonism and material excess are the main thrusts of western society then you are not looking very closely, most every area of western society is dominated by these things. They are so all pervasive that for the most part we no longer even notice them. I doubt a day goes by without most of us casually engaging in one excess or another, whether that is gluttony, indolence, lust or vainglory.
To be equally frank, we have always lived in a very materialistic world. From the monent of birth, we have been genetically programmed to seek out the mother's teat, and all the good that this world has to offer.
Certainly, western societies are no different in this respect. Hedonism. materialism is in our very nature, and part of our fallen state.
But, there is much more to modern socities thatn this. Our concern fro victims for example, the poor, the downtrodden, the stranger...
this is what typifies modern society as it was typified in no other society that has come before. Romans were in the main indifferent to the pain and suffering of the cross. Now the whole world rallies around the picture of a single Palestinian boy caught in the cross fire. To an absurd, even ridiculous degree, our soceities are directed towards concern for the victim.
This is very, very Christian even in our post-Christian world. In fact, the main criticism agaisnt Chrstianity by athiests, is that in this respect, Christianity has not been Christian enough.
I'd point out that western power only offers these great benefits to a select few on the planet, those of us in the rich west. We exploit the third world as ruthlessly as the ancients did their slaves, sure we no longer use slavery but our new more sophisticated tools provide much the same results, we the minority live well at the expense of the majority.
And this is exactlt what I was talking about. No matter, how much good comes from western societies, no matter how much wealth that a given societiy adds to world, the focus will always be on the failures.
Really though, the poorest societies are not those that the rich have exploited, but those that the rich socities have ignored.
Undoubtedly Christianity has indeed had positive effects within societies exposed to it. This though isnt the contention of the OP.
Very likely, I added my own twist to the discussion.
I have to disagree here, the Incarnation is not primarily about changing society, that is only incidental to the salvation of humanity both individually and corporately within the Church which is the main point of the incarnation
.
Picture, if you will, Daniel's dream vision of the empires of the world, with Babylon representing the head of gold, and successive empires being represented by baser metals, and the lower bodily extremities.
Contrast the stories of the Old Testament and New Testament with virtually any other major religion.
And note how Judeao-Christianity alone is so focussed on real history. From Pharoah and Nebudchadnezzar, through Cyrus, Antiphanes, Caiaphas, Pontius Pilate, and so on- such a major focus of our faith has always been on the affairs of world. The personalities are all thorougly historic, and only secondarily of mythic or metaphoric aspects.
I would submit that from the beginning, the Church saw herself as causing the rulers of this world to stumble and fall, and replacing their tainted, and Satanic rule with the Christly rule of those that followed the Way.
Partly true but those fruits are not for the most part the advancements that characterise the modern world, if you think they are then you miss the point.
The faults of modern societies are many and myriad. As our world turns its back upon the religious ideals that have formed it for the past two thousand years, and as our Christian worlds descends into a post-Christian caricature of its former self, persecutions and dangers for those professing sound Christian ideas will not doubt increase.
Indeed, this has been prophecied long ago.
But to the extent that those with otherwise sound Christian ideals fail to see that Christ desires to rule this world through those that have been endowed with his Spirit, I think that their arrows too miss the point, have fallen fall short of the target that Christ has set for us.
Salvation of this world, and not just a primary focus upon our salvaton for the next world; this need not just be an exclusively liberal ideal. This too was a part of the traditional, Catholic orthodoxy.
