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Except, Chesterton, you have make it quite clear that to you, 'unity' means the rest of us becoming Roman Catholics. That is your stated intent. quote]
Exactly. Not only that, but I believe Christain unity is ONLY possible in the Catholic Church under the teaching authority of the Pope and the magisterium.
Without this authority, doctrinal chaos is the only possible outcome.
We must trust that Jesus is indeed leading US(all of us as one) into all Truth.
If the Truth is in dispute, then we know that this cannot be the case.
And you are perfectly entitled to believe that, just as others point to reasons for believing the opposite. The battle is joined, however, when either POV is insisted upon as the only possible approach. Let's not do that. We know where you stand, and you've explained why. Let's now consider reconciliation.
If someone wants to share what they think is the truth, and someone wants to bring others into that truth, that is not subversive from their POV.
So-called protestant missionaries do it all the time, going into Catholic countries in Central and South America to bring the Gospel to people that are already Catholic. They call that "missionary" work. LOL
If we are attempting to walk this tightrope of speaking of doctrinal differences without bullying or berating the opposite side, how, would you say, this problem area can possibly be overcome? Or, is there any possibility at all short of the unlikely possibility of the Vatican renouncing its teachings about itself?Will not happen. Other than the RC, no other church will recognize the Pope or the magisterium. I much rather see the RC return to the biblical model and demote the Pope to bishop of Rome only.
Exactly. Not only that, but I believe Christain unity is ONLY possible in the Catholic Church under the teaching authority of the Pope and the magisterium.
Without this authority, doctrinal chaos is the only possible outcome.
We must trust that Jesus is indeed leading US(all of us as one) into all Truth.
If the Truth is in dispute, then we know that this cannot be the case.
Man's authority was never intended to be substituted for that of the Holy Spirit.
Exactly. Unfortunately, that is what the Reformation did.
It made man the authority rather than the Church founded by Jesus.
Now, any man can tack up a sign, claim guidance by the Holy Spirit, and proclaim the "truth".
In Jn. 16, Jesus promised the Spirit of truth to lead His people into 'all truth.' quote]
Jesus made this promise to his disciples, not to you.
What did they do?
Pope Clement writing to the Corinthians in about 95 AD:
Chapter 42. The Order of Ministers in the Church.
The apostles have preached the gospel to us from the Lord Jesus Christ; Jesus Christ from God. Christ therefore was sent forth by God, and the apostles by Christ. Both these appointments, then, were made in an orderly way, according to the will of God. Having therefore received their orders, and being fully assured by the resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ, and established in the word of God, with full assurance of the Holy Ghost, they went forth proclaiming that the kingdom of God was at hand. And thus preaching through countries and cities, they appointed the first fruits [of their labours], having first proved them by the Spirit, to be bishops and deacons of those who should afterwards believe.
Chapter 44. The Ordinances of the Apostles, that There Might Be No Contention Respecting the Priestly Office.
Our apostles also knew, through our Lord Jesus Christ, that there would be strife on account of the office of the episcopate. For this reason, therefore, inasmuch as they had obtained a perfect fore-knowledge of this, they appointed those [ministers] already mentioned, and afterwards gave instructions, that when these should fall asleep, other approved men should succeed them in their ministry.
Pope Clement I (called CLEMENS ROMANUS to distinguish him from the Alexandrian), is the first of the successors of St. Peter of whom anything definite is known, and he is the first of the "Apostolic Fathers". His feast is celebrated 23 November. He has left one genuine writing, a letter to the Church of Corinth, and many others have been attributed to him.
Let's now consider reconciliation.
Yes, but coming to the table as equals, as fellow believers in Jesus, not as 'heretics,' as JPII described Protestants. Tell me, Albion, is that a realistic possibliity? Unless and until it happens, I don't see any chance of reconciliation.
Conversions happen for many reasons. New knowledge is one of these reasons.
It might take years sometimes, but that's not really the point.
How then, have the Orthodox been able to maintain the exact same beliefs for so long? All Orthodox, in our Roman Pope-less, 'divided' state, believe the exact same things... There's more variation of belief within the RCC (CCR, Uniates, SSPX, modernists, traditionalists, different monastic orders, etc...) than the Orthodox churches. How can this be explained?
Exactly. Unfortunately, that is what the Reformation did.
It made man the authority rather than the Church founded by Jesus.
If we are attempting to walk this tightrope of speaking of doctrinal differences without bullying or berating the opposite side, how, would you say, this problem area can possibly be overcome? Or, is there any possibility at all short of the unlikely possibility of the Vatican renouncing its teachings about itself?
Yes, but coming to the table as equals, as fellow believers in Jesus, not as 'heretics,' as JPII described Protestants. Tell me, Albion, is that a realistic possibliity? Unless and until it happens, I don't see any chance of reconciliation.
I agree. Individual conversions -- in either direction -- will not touch the bigger issue, which is the reconciliation of the divisions existing in Christianity.
But what about this...?
Does reconciliation require formal, organization unity?
Where do we find that Truth?Reconciliation is a step toward unity, in my opinion.
I think unity should the goal of all Christians.
There is only one Truth, and this truth should be our goal.
If I am wrong, I want to know it. Don't you?
This area is the main sticky point. All present orthodox churches other than RC will not recognize the hierarchy as created by the RC. Frankly, it is one of the main sticky points that remains between the RC and the EO. Change will have to come from Rome before any semblance of a productive dialogue could occur. I am not optimistic.
Where do we find that Truth?
If I am wrong, I want to know it.
My pastor reads the account from the Bible, then we pray, thenDoes your current church teach this about the eucharist?
rofl.civil discussion is unity enough for me.
And in spite of your big ears, long nose & severe underbite, we've managed not to come to death grips, hey Chez?
Aww, coy looks cute on you squint.So, it's an insult to uphold an RCC member promoting loving our neighbors as ourselves? lol
That's why we call it the Reformation, not The Protestation.Actually, the Protestant Reformation stood for exactly the opposite. It resulted from Martin Luther reading a Bible chained to the wall in the monastery, and discovering that the Church he served was not following the Bible. He appealed to that Church to reform and to follow the Bible, and as a result was excommunicated. The Reformation stood for and stands for following the Bible, what God says, rather than the traditions of man which were exalted above the Bible.
And which Church may that be?I believe that it is found in Jesus, and that Jesus gave us the Church to protect the Truth.
If I am wrong about this, I want to know it.
So far, no one has come close to making a solid case against the Church.
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