How can RCs and Protestants reconcile

archierieus · Feb 9, 2009

chestertonrules said:
That's your view.

A more biblical view is that some prideful men went out among the people without authorization of the apostles.

Let's see, how are referring to the Protestant reformation. You speak of 'a more Biblical view.' Please provide Scriptural support for your assertion--specifically, regarding the issue of the Protestant Reformation.

I would point to the Catholic Counter-Reformation, which included a focus on how to divert the attention of Europe from the Scriptures and the Reformers' comparing the papacy with what Scripture teaches; with the formal exaltation of church tradition as higher than Scripture; and with the establishment of the Inquisition in order to compel those who chose to follow the Bible, to renounce their faith. Would you call those things 'more Biblical'?

squint · Feb 9, 2009

chestertonrules said:
Hmm....
The bible can be interpreted in multiple ways, which is why it is used by Mormons, Jehovah's witnesses, and multiple protestant faiths to "prove" contradicting points of view.

Without an authoritative source for interpreting scripture, it becomes a source of division rather than unity.

Ah, a rare moment of clarity! Yes, the RCC should also be rightfully inserted into your list above.

ALL groups of believers take the BULK OF what they 'think' they know and understand from said scripture, RCC included.

CaliforniaJosiah · Feb 9, 2009

chestertonrules said:
The bible can be interpreted in multiple ways

Including by the RCC. Do you believe all interpretations MUST be correct, especially if the one so interpreting (alone) says that his (alone) is?

Without an authoritative source for interpreting scripture, it becomes a source of division rather than unity.

1. Perhaps, but since you don't accept that an authority is an authority because the self-same alone so self-claims for self alone, I fail to see your point.

2. Again, you (like the RCC) seem to be embracing Authority (for self alone) while rejecting the companion - accountablility

.

squint · Feb 9, 2009

LittleLambofJesus said:
LLOJ sees this will not be reconciled in his lifetime

It is so much more scripturally verifiable to move in the other direction lloj! Then sometimes the LIGHT comes on upstairs.

John 7:43
So there was a division among the people because of him.

Luke 12:51
Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division

God in Christ is much more in alliance to this direction. Is that not entirely obvious by now? Any casual glance at christiandom will PROVE this fact has transpired and it has so BY GODS DECREE.

enjoy!

squint

archierieus · Feb 9, 2009

chestertonrules said:
The bible can be interpreted in multiple ways, which is why it is used by Mormons, Jehovah's witnesses, and multiple protestant faiths to "prove" contradicting points of view.

Actually, it is Mormons and Roman Catholics who rely on claimed sources of authority outside the Bible, and which, as well, both claim the authority of apostolic succession.

Without an authoritative source for interpreting scripture, it becomes a source of division rather than unity.

Yet, the goal of Bible-believing Christians is to resolve differences and come together in Christian unity on the basis of the Bible. The difference as far as RCC's and Mormons go is that they seek unity on the basis of exalting their Church, with 'apostolic authority' as one of the legs of the tripod. Whatever the current pope or current president of the LDS church pronounces ex cathedra is of equal authority to Scripture.

Dave

chestertonrules · Feb 9, 2009

archierieus said:
Let's see, how are referring to the Protestant reformation. You speak of 'a more Biblical view.' Please provide Scriptural support for your assertion--specifically, regarding the issue of the Protestant Reformation.

quote]

Sola Scriptura=Reformation Novelty

Bible:

2 Thes 2
15So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

Rejection of the real presence in the Eucharist=Protestant Novelty(not all protestants, I know!)

Bible:

1 Cor 11
27Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. 28A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup. 29For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself.

Rejection of the authority of the church=Reformation Novelty

Bible:

Matthew 18

17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

chestertonrules · Feb 9, 2009

archierieus said:
Actually, it is Mormons and Roman Catholics who rely on claimed sources of authority outside the Bible, and which, as well, both claim the authority of apostolic succession.

Click to expand...

The Catholic Church gave us the bible.

Yet, the goal of Bible-believing Christians is to resolve differences and come together in Christian unity on the basis of the Bible. The difference as far as RCC's and Mormons go is that they seek unity on the basis of exalting their Church, with 'apostolic authority' as one of the legs of the tripod. Whatever the current pope or current president of the LDS church pronounces ex cathedra is of equal authority to Scripture.

Click to expand...

That is not true. Do you really think the goal of Arminians and Calvinists is to resolve differences?

You ignore the words of Jesus when you reject his Church:

Matthew 16

17Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

John 20
21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

Trento · Feb 9, 2009

archierieus said:
The Bible is the test of a church's teachings. A church is not the test of its own teachings. Such would exalt man above God.

The Orthodox Catholic Church decided the contents of the New Testament, and preserved the Christian Bible for over a thousand years to the time of the Reformation. If the Church had at any time at all in that period become corrupt, why did it not just destroy or re-write the scriptures?
In fact Church Theologians through the centuries knew what the Bible contained and were not alarmed by it. They knew that the whole Bible, taken in context backed up what the Church taught.
Only if certain verses were taken out of their biblical context and given undue prominence would trouble arise.

.
Now if the Holy Spirit taught each Christian, or even each Church, the correct interpretation of scripture, then surely all these opposed interpretations would not arise? And logically, since the Spirit teaches only ONE TRUTH, all but one of the many thousands of interpretations of scripture that exist, must be wrong.

LittleLambofJesus · Feb 9, 2009

The Catholic Church gave us the bible.

Chester. May I respectfully ask you to use the words the Christian Church on my thread....You make me out to be something other than a Christian.....Thks

chestertonrules · Feb 9, 2009

squint said:
It is so much more scripturally verifiable to move in the other direction lloj! Then sometimes the LIGHT comes on upstairs.

John 7:43
So there was a division among the people because of him.

Luke 12:51
Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division

God in Christ is much more in alliance to this direction. Is that not entirely obvious by now? Any casual glance at christiandom will PROVE this fact has transpired and it has so BY GODS DECREE.

enjoy!

squint

He is speaking of division between Christians and non Christians.

Keep reading:

Jesus Prays for His Disciples

Father, protect them by the power of your name—the name you gave me—so that they may be one as we are one.

16They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. 17Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth. 18As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. 19For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.

Jesus Prays for All Believers

20"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

MamaZ · Feb 9, 2009

chestertonrules said:
Hmm....

1 Timothy 3
15if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

The bible can be interpreted in multiple ways, which is why it is used by Mormons, Jehovah's witnesses, and multiple protestant faiths to "prove" contradicting points of view.

Without an authoritative source for interpreting scripture, it becomes a source of division rather than unity.

Well lets see the Mormons follow after their own sort of pope only they call him a prophet. Josesph smith. They also believe in apostolic succession. The JW don't even believe Christ is who He says He is. So they arn't even prostestants faiths.

archierieus · Feb 9, 2009

chestertonrules said:
archierieus said:

Let's see, how are referring to the Protestant reformation. You speak of 'a more Biblical view.' Please provide Scriptural support for your assertion--specifically, regarding the issue of the Protestant Reformation.

quote]

Sola Scriptura=Reformation Novelty

Bible:

2 Thes 2
15So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

Click to expand...

Actually, the teachings which were passed on to the believers are contained in the Bible. The same author also warns them to reject anything not in accordance with the Bible.

Rejection of the real presence in the Eucharist=Protestant Novelty(not all protestants, I know!)

Bible:

1 Cor 11
27Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. 28A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup. 29For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself.

Click to expand...

While that issue is, of course, debatable, it was not one of the issues of the Protestant Reformation.

Rejection of the authority of the church=Reformation Novelty

Bible:

Matthew 18

17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

Click to expand...

Here, Christ was referring to the 'church of the living God,' the 'pillar and ground of the truth.' If a church has doctrinal errors, and refuses to give up those doctrinal errors, then the faithful would have no choice but to go elsewhere.

But the REAL issues of the Protestant Reformation were:

Justification by faith rather than by works;

The outrage of raising money for St. Peter's basilica by selling indulgences to people, offering a shortening of time in Purgatory in exchange for money ("filthy lucre."

The exaltation of man, that is, the pope, and the claim of Divine authority and powers for the pope.

Luther's appeal at the Diet of Worms to show him from Scripture where he had erred, when he was demanded to recant his views--and the inability of the Church doctors to show Scriptural errors. (The Bible supported what Luther taught.)

THESE were key issues of the Protestant Reformation.

Dave

chestertonrules · Feb 9, 2009

archierieus said:
chestertonrules said:

Actually, the teachings which were passed on to the believers are contained in the Bible. The same author also warns them to reject anything not in accordance with the Bible.

Click to expand...

What tradition teaches you this?

While that issue is, of course, debatable, it was not one of the issues of the Protestant Reformation.

Click to expand...

It was for many reformers, including Calvin and Zwingli.

Here, Christ was referring to the 'church of the living God,' the 'pillar and ground of the truth.' If a church has doctrinal errors, and refuses to give up those doctrinal errors, then the faithful would have no choice but to go elsewhere.

Click to expand...

If the church is the pillar and foundation of truth, what do we make of those who disagree with the Church?

But the REAL issues of the Protestant Reformation were:

Justification by faith rather than by works;

Click to expand...

True. Luther wanted to remove James from the bible and he added the word ALONE to faith in his German translation of Romans.

James 2:24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

The outrage of raising money for St. Peter's basilica by selling indulgences to people, offering a shortening of time in Purgatory in exchange for money ("filthy lucre."

Click to expand...

The Church has acknowledged that there were abuses of power throughout its history.

The exaltation of man, that is, the pope, and the claim of Divine authority and powers for the pope.

Click to expand...

Take it up with Jesus. The pope is the servant of servants.

Click to expand...

LittleLambofJesus · Feb 9, 2009

Take it up with Jesus. The pope is the servant of servants.

So is my minister....and so are the Orthodox bishops

MamaZ · Feb 9, 2009

So are many a mere men walking in the Spirit of Christ. Don't need to be a pope to be a servant of servants.. We are all called to be servants to one another..

archierieus · Feb 9, 2009

chestertonrules said:
The Church has acknowledged that there were abuses of power throughout its history.

Click to expand...

After the RCC LOST its worldly power, after it was taken away by Napoleon's decree (the papal states were restored at the Congress of Vienna but NOT the secular power of the papacy, NOR any recognition of authority as 'definer of doctrine and corrector of heretics' which had boosted the Catholic church to power in the 6th c.), then, MUCH LATER, in a bid , among other things, to regain prestige and have its power restored, the Church acknowledged that it had abused its power. Indeed, the modern papacy wishes for a return to the power it once had. Nor has the RCC relinquished the assertion that Protestants are heretics! JPII and the current pope have both said that Protestants are heretics! Were the secular power of the church restored, as in the glory days of the Dark Ages, would we again see people executed because they chose to obey God rather than the mandates of the established Church?

Regardless of the motivation, the fact remains, the admission remains, that the RCC ERRED. We all do that, INCLUDING the RCC, INCLUDING the pope. That's why we look to the Bible, rather than to any erring church.

As for the balance of your post, I will respond a bit later. Gotta head out right now.

Dave

chestertonrules · Feb 9, 2009

archierieus said:
chestertonrules said:

Regardless of the motivation, the fact remains, the admission remains, that the RCC ERRED. We all do that, INCLUDING the RCC, INCLUDING the pope. That's why we look to the Bible, rather than to any erring church.

Dave

Click to expand...

The Church has never erred on issues of faith or morals.

It is protected from error on doctrine by the Holy Spirit and by the promises of Jesus.

The bible can be interpreted to mean almost anything, and it often has been.

Without an infallible intepreter, the bible will only cause division.

CaliforniaJosiah · Feb 9, 2009

chestertonrules said:
archierieus said:

The Church has never erred on issues of faith or morals.

It is protected from error on doctrine by the Holy Spirit and by the promises of Jesus.

Click to expand...

So the Catholic Church itself alone has so self claimed for self alone.
Now, where is the accountability?

In all sincerity, I strongly suggest you spend some time at LDS websites.
You'll find this claim of self for self MUCH less strong and dominate there, but you will clearly recognize it. See how you evaluate it. And what you see such CAN lead to.

.

Rhamiel · Feb 9, 2009

as in the glory days of the Dark Ages, would we again see people executed because they chose to obey God rather than the mandates of the established Church?

that is a good question
I would say, no it would not be the same, but I am open to hear debate on this issue.
I have heard other people have the same concern, as I Catholic, that has never crossed my mind, lol, if the Pope was named "King of Italy" or something like that tomorrow, I do not think any acts of violence would be carried out on Protestants in Italy

bbbbbbb · Feb 9, 2009

CaliforniaJosiah said:
chestertonrules said:

So the Catholic Church itself alone has so self claimed for self alone.
Now, where is the accountability?

In all sincerity, I strongly suggest you spend some time at LDS websites.
You'll find this claim of self for self MUCH less strong and dominate there, but you will clearly recognize it. See how you evaluate it. And what you see such CAN lead to.

.

Click to expand...

That is an excellent suggestion. As one who has spent some time at the LDS forum here I can attest to the fact that there are more than a few similarities between the two universes,

How can RCs and Protestants reconcile

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Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

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