• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

How can radiocarbon be a worthwhile dating method:

Status
Not open for further replies.

flaja

Regular Member
Feb 9, 2006
342
6
✟521.00
Faith
Non-Denom
When the carbon-12 to carbon-14 ratio has not been constant in the atmosphere over time?

http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1971RSPSA.321..105B

“Variations in atmospheric carbon-14 concentrations during the past century have been studied through the analyses of wines, spirits and plant seeds. The results reveal that short-term fluctuations of carbon-14 concentrations have occurred which are negatively correlated with solar activity.”

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...7461-1,00.html

“But as the number of puzzling carbon 14 dates increased, scientists at the universities of Arizona, Pennsylvania and California began testing Libby's assumption by turning to some of the oldest living things on earth—California's bristlecone pine and sequoia trees, which have been growing for as long as 4,000 years. By carefully analyzing the carbon 14 content in the annual growth rings of the trees, they found that there have, in fact, been small but significant changes in the isotope's production over the centuries, apparently as a result of variations in the cosmic-ray bombardment.”

When the carbon-14 that is created is not evenly distributed among living things?

http://geography.otago.ac.nz/Courses...bonDating.html
“Organic specimens drawing carbon from reservoirs other than the atmosphere may yield incorrect ages. In the case of marine shells deriving their carbon from seawater, a system not in equilibrium with the atmosphere, the reservoir effect can lead to age differences of up to 1000 years. This difference can be reflected in bones of animals or humans consuming fish. High apparent ages can be found in plants near volcanoes erupting 14C-depleted CO2. Other small age shifts arise from differences in atmospheric mixing between northern and southern hemispheres, and regional air-sea exchange of CO2.”


When radiocarbon dates and tree ring dates are not in agreement?

Egypt’s 18th Dynasty is dated to around 1500-1400 BC according to what is generally believed about written records and artifacts. But http://www.atlantisrising.com/issue11/ar11carbon.html wood taken from the tomb of Tutankamun, one of the last 18th Dynasty pharaohs was found to have a carbon date of around 1050 BC. (I seen some claims that materials from Tut’s tomb have carbon dates as recent as the 8th century BC.)

http://www.diveturkey.com/inaturkey/uluburun/dendrochron.htm

Back in the 1990s a shipwreck was found off the coast of Turkey. A piece of wood that is thought to be part of the ship’s hull has a tree-ring date of 1441 BC give or take 37 years.

But a piece of firewood from the wreck has a tree-ring date of only 1356 BC give or take 37 years.

The wreck also yielded a gold scarab from Egypt that had the name Nefertiti, the wife of Pharaoh Aknaton. The scarab is worn, suggesting that it may been a keepsake and thus dates the shipwreck to sometime after Aknaton’s time (roughly 1350-1330 BC if you accept the conventional chronology).

But even if the shipwreck happened even a generation after Aknaton, the tree ring dates don’t support a 1050 BC (let along an 8th century BC) carbon date for Tut.

When the decay rate is not constant?

Things like temperature and barometric pressure can alter the results of a radiocarbon dating test: http://www.aip.org/history/climate/Radioc.htm. Now, if radiocarbon isn’t a reliable dating method under laboratory conditions, how can we expect radiocarbon to behave in a constant way in the real world and thus give accurate dates?
 

flaja

Regular Member
Feb 9, 2006
342
6
✟521.00
Faith
Non-Denom
In the interest of saving time, you should read the following list before advocating common YEC arguments:

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/list.html

Listings under CD0 address and refute many of the points you've cited.


http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1971RSPSA.321..105B

Source: Royal Society of London by way of Harvard University. Not a Creationist source.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...7461-1,00.html


Source: Time magazine. Not a Creationist source.

http://geography.otago.ac.nz/Courses...bonDating.html

Source: Department of Geography, University of Otago. Not a creationist source.

http://www.atlantisrising.com/issue11/ar11carbon.html

Source: Independent researcher. It may or may not be a Creationist source; I am awaiting clarification.

http://www.diveturkey.com/inaturkey/uluburun/dendrochron.htm


Source: Institute of Nautical Archaeolgoy, Bodrum, Turkey. Not a Creationist source.

http://www.aip.org/history/climate/Radioc.htm

Source: Center for History of Physics of the American Institute of Physics (AIP), College Park, Maryland. Not a Creationist source.

Since only one of my sources for this information has even a remote chance of being Creationist oriented, how have I simply repeated Creationist arguments? I asked the questions I asked based on data and claims from Evolutionists, not Creationists. So why can’t the Evolutionists here offer any answers?
 
Upvote 0

Mallon

Senior Veteran
Mar 6, 2006
6,109
297
✟30,402.00
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Private
Your concerns with carbon dating are understood, but largely unwarranted. Carbon dating is not without its flaws, but then again, it was never touted being perfect. Carbon dating is a useful tool, and has been shown to corroborate data from dendrochronology, ice cores, and lake varves. If it were so useless, none of that would be possible.
 
Upvote 0

notto

Legend
May 31, 2002
11,130
664
55
Visit site
✟29,869.00
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
What's funny about this argument is that C-14 dating is used more for dating biblical artifacts and manuscripts more than it is used to date anything related to evolution or the fossil record.

Creationists are their own worst enemies and they don't even realize it.

Without the validity of C-14 dating much of biblical archeology simply goes away.

Way to go Creationists!

'Evolutionists' have very little interest in C14 dating. Nothing really interesting has happened in the timeframe that C14 is valuable for anyways.

The validity of C14 dating has little impact on the theory of evolution. Your disagreement is with physicists, archeologists, and historians, not biologists.

Unless you can demonstrate how the invalidity of C14 dating would have any impact on research or findings related to evolution, it is kind of strange that you would expect 'evolutionists' to be the experts on it. It is very much outside of their field and of little value to them as a research tool.


You need to get a better argument or take it to the biblical archaeologists. Why don't you tell them that the dating framework that has been used is incorrect?
 
Upvote 0

flaja

Regular Member
Feb 9, 2006
342
6
✟521.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Your concerns with carbon dating are understood, but largely unwarranted. Carbon dating is not without its flaws, but then again, it was never touted being perfect. Carbon dating is a useful tool, and has been shown to corroborate data from dendrochronology, ice cores, and lake varves. If it were so useless, none of that would be possible.

If it is inconsistent and inaccurate, how useful can it be?
 
Upvote 0

flaja

Regular Member
Feb 9, 2006
342
6
✟521.00
Faith
Non-Denom
What's funny about this argument is that C-14 dating is used more for dating biblical artifacts and manuscripts more than it is used to date anything related to evolution or the fossil record.

Your documentation for this claim is what? Can you give me a list of Biblically-related items that have been carbon dated?
 
Upvote 0

Mallon

Senior Veteran
Mar 6, 2006
6,109
297
✟30,402.00
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Private
If it is inconsistent and inaccurate, how useful can it be?
It is inconsistent and inaccurate under known sets of conditions. I might reverse the question and ask why, if carbon dating is so useless, does it corroborate dates from ice cores, tree rings, and lake varves?
 
Upvote 0

shernren

you are not reading this.
Feb 17, 2005
8,463
515
38
Shah Alam, Selangor
Visit site
✟33,881.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
In Relationship
If it is inconsistent and inaccurate, how useful can it be?
I got back an hour ago from an experiment in which we measured the freezing point of solutions of salt and sugar in water. The last thing we did was to measure, using our thermometers, what the freezing point of water was. "What's the point?" you might ask. "Everybody knows that the freezing point of water is 0 degrees Celsius!" You have to tell my thermometer, though - it read -0.1 degrees. Did that reading now mean my thermometer was useless? On the contrary - I'm even more confident now that my thermometer measured temperatures accurately, as long as I subtract 0.1 degrees off every reading.

A more complex example is with the hydrometer our team is using now to measure the density of salt water. Actually, we haven't gotten any measurements of salt water yet - last week we got six data points for the relationship between temperature and density of *distilled* water. Again, you should be asking "Why bother? There are tables of that everywhere; just look it up!" - but that's exactly what I did after getting the data. Interestingly, it seems that our hydrometer is inconsistently giving us readings about 20% more than they should be! We'll have to test this again first thing when we get back into the lab next week.

The point should be clear by now. The more we know about carbon dating, the more accurate its measurements become, not less, because the required corrections can be applied to all measurements, turning what might have been an unknown error into known error which can be accounted for.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.