How can Mary be sinless > 1 John 4:3

isshinwhat said:

In part, I see it this way; we state that Mary's Immaculate Conception was a redemptive act of God on a woman who otherwise would have been sinful and not in union with Him. If we say those things of her, is it fitting that Christ's humanity, in His Person, would have been redeemed in that way? Perhaps, but I don't believe so. Mary was redeemed in a unique way because Jesus was/is the spotless Lamb of God; she was redeemed specially where He would inherit flesh that was pure by nature and not in need of redemption. His humanity was/is the humanity we were all meant to have, which we did have before the Fall. It is that humanity that was offered to God, in union with Him, in the Person of Jeaus. He was indeed a spotless lamb, an unblemished sacrifice. Many claim that we elevate Mary, but in our eyes everything done in her was done for Jesus. It is all about Him and His redemptive work.

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That's why I give all glory to the LORD, and none to Mary. Without the LORD, none of this would be possible.

Mary was but a mere mortal, who lived under the Law and needed a Savior as the rest of us. She too, like the rest of the Israel, looked forward to the coming of the Messiah who would take away all of their sins (Yes, including Mary's too).

And if she be not able to bring a lamb, then she shall bring two turtledoves, or two young pigeons; the one for the burnt offering, and the other for a sin offering: and the priest shall make an atonement for her, and she shall be clean. Leviticus 12:8


When the time came for the purification rites required by the Law of Moses, Joseph and Mary took him to Jerusalem to present him to the Lord (as it is written in the Law of the Lord, “Every firstborn male is to be consecrated to the Lord”), and to offer a sacrifice in keeping with what is said in the Law of the Lord: “a pair of doves or two young pigeons.” Luke 2:22-24


Let no one deceive you, there is no man or woman who does not sin. The Scriptures are clear; all men have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

Look here this has gone on far to long. Mary sinned, every one has other then Christ. It does not change her role or position in history or service to God.
What is being testified too on the mound of transfiguration is that Christ has become the bridge between the two covenants, one new man was being formed. Mary like all believers is part of that one new man. This one new man i speak of is the Body is Christ.
The Covenant of old was now completed in Christ, The New covenant was indeed coming into full force. Christ stands in the mist of them Bridging the two, declaring i make all things new..
All of these are Christ body. Mary as well. But to be a part of Christ body you also must be of sin. Every man whom walked out of the first covenant is Lost. Mary was born under the first covenant and subject to the law. The very moment Mary was born sin was imputed to her, because her mother EVE and her Father ADAM had sinned. Eve is the mother of all the living. Mary was subject to the curse that came because of Eves disobedience. Of course Adam did his part too. Now Mary was a wonderful person but if you say she was sinless then you "elevate" her above God, His Christ and his word. Gods Word declares all have sinned.
"ALL"
A little simple three letter word that sums up all creation. And Another reason Mary is not sinless is found in Revelation.
Lets see whom opened the seal of the Judgements. A lamb whom overcame sin. Mary like you and me had a sin nature, A heart that was sinful, A nature that was less then perfect. Her sin may have been as small as thinking she could direct God or Christ affairs. Like when she tried to keep Jesus from preaching in the temple. Or maybe her conduct at the wedding feast. You see Mary was of course aware of Christ powers. Can you imagine raising Jesus as a toddler?
And i believe we can all agree that Mary is to be highly esteemed and she is. But sinless no. First off how much pride would a woman have whom knew she had the Christ in her bosom. Or course she was young. Pride or not she sinned.
Second the curse that God placed on all sinners whom are woman till this very day. Was pain in childbirth. Did Mary have a painless childbirth. NO SHE DID NOT.
You can not have the effects of sin imputed were there is not sin. The pain of Marys child birth declares she is accounted to sin and accursed with the mother of creation EVE. Of course that was Gods plan and will. For God desired to redeem and Glorify Mary in the Son.
Marys Hymen was broke because she was a virgin until the time of Christ birth. The Hymens breaking was symbolic of the veil of separation of God and mankind was being destroyed. This veil is destroyed for all time. As it a for telling of a future event. God will not restore it. So Jesus was born of a virgin. As in Mary had not know a man in the biblical way. But she was no longer a virgin after giving birth. In case you did not know the hymen is located between the womb ( were the baby is ) and the outside. Christ birth was natural. Mary was Holy when Joseph took her but not a virgin.
Now next i will bet you will say Mary did not suckle Jesus, never looked upon his nakedness and so forth. Christ had to suffer all things that mankind suffered so he could bear witness of man suffering. And that also included a normal birth process.
The bible states the marriage bed is undefiled. In the case of Mary and Joseph there did no wrong in the sight of God in there union. Mary as a daughter of the blessing of Abraham and of the promise had to have children after Jesus. Because Man can not out give God. Mary allowed God to birth his son into the Flesh and then Delivered him alive for the Lords use. God had to enforce is word and give her more then she gave him.
Abraham when he was about to offer his son was stopped. God because of Abraham's willingness to Obey God. Then God has to offer his son. A greater Offering. If Abraham had slain his son then God could not have offered a greater thing to Abraham. God can't lie he must enforce his word. Can man out give the giver of all things.
Of course these things are all over the bible. In the feeding of the 5000. The 12 baskets are symbolic of the 12 apostles, The bread and the fish. Are symbolic also.
Those took up will be (5 loaves( 5 books of the Law) people of the first covenant
The 2 fish ( Born of water( Christ is the living waters) and Born of the Holy Spirit)
Unless you are born of water and spirit.
The hymen of Mary had to be in place when Christ was created in Mary, And the Hyman had to remain destroyed. After Christ was birthed. For it is symbolic of the destruction of the separation of God and man.

St_Barnabus said:

So nice to chat with you, Castaway. You are such a gentleman! Many things are going to be above our understanding, but they just need to be accepted by faith. I am unable to plant my seed of faith in this dogma into your heart, but it is not going to interfere with your relationship with God. We don't understand the Trinity, but we believe in it; nor how grace works other than it does; nor how our bodies will be resurrected, but they will; and other deep truths that fall under God's divine Revelation. We accept it because He cannot deceive us, even though we don't understand.

Why God chose to preserve Mary from sin is not given us to know intellectually, but we believe it on the authority of the early Church that transmitted this truth throughout the centuries. Why would anyone need to make this up??

As we discussed previously in the other thread, not every revelation is recorded in scripture, but was taught orally and not committed to writing. For example, the Trinity is found nowhere in scripture, but there were allusions to the three persons throughout the bible, but nowhere does it use the word itself.

I don't know your faith, or if this is all Greek to you, but I do appreciate your sincerity and openness, and kindness in accepting that we differ on some items. May God's Holy Spirit guide us all into fullness of truth.

God bless you.

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I am sorry; I made a typo above and forgot to actually note the scripture I was talking about when I said "There is a scripture that speaks to how God preserved Mary's piety and holiness so that she could be the mother of our Lord:" That scripture is as follows:

"Psa 91:11 For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways."

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I don't know exactly how "sinless" Mary was but I do know that from this scripture in psalms 91, God preserved whatever ways of holiness she had to have had in order to be the Mother of Jesus.

Isn't it great to know from this inspiring story of Mary that God will preserve whatever ways we commit to Him?

Sometimes, Adventists apply the scripture "This is the day that the Lord has made" to the Sabbath; which I have no real problem with, but I have always loved this story of Mary, and have sometimes wondered if Christians could not also say of the day when mary & Elizabeth met and had that amazing interaction, "This is the day the Lord has made, we will rejoice and be glad in it."

Jonathan95 said:

Moses? He disobeyed God, by striking the rock. He was close to dying too because he didn't circumcise the infant it seems

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So you see - though all the others were sinners - and didn't have the great role Mary had...
They still were taken to Heaven.

Perhaps no one stated in scriptures Moses went to Heaven...assumed.
No, it doesnt state it.
Yet Hebrews we know satan fought for Moses body to 'corrupt' it - which means to let it decay.
We also know via Hebrews St Michael the ArchAngel rebuked him.
So who do you think won?
Secondly, the Jews said they never saw his body again... and dont even know where it went.
Thirdly, who was present standing with Jesus at His Transfiguration?

Just because things are not stated - doesnt mean it didnt occur.

Mary appeared to St Luke - who created the first icon - he painted the 1st Theotokos holding the Christ Child.

Tradition shows - what the Church opted to leave out. Doesnt mean because the Church chose what was public revelation that private didnt exist or didnt count.
The scriptures - aka NT - was for their use anyway. No one was expecting groups to split off and form long term sects. Usually when a split happened - the argument from the Church ended the matter.

Mary - was without sin - for the purpose of taking the place of Eve - who cooperated in the fall - so God had another woman who would cooperate in the redemption - of like substance. IE - sinless - because she was the New Eve.
And why do ppl insist God is not entitled to these miracles?

Even the reformers believed she was without sin.

ONE NEW MAN
Christ FORMED one new man from the people of the two covenants. He declared ALL have sinned. All have lied. All have broken the law. Then he came and overcame sin alone and then from died to redeem all that the Father gave him. Forming one new man. ONE he has created in destroying sins sting.
All whom have come to God are in Christ he alone is the door to GOD. And that Door is open to only Sinners. Those of the first covenant have there sin imputed to the law and the Promise which is in Christ.
Mary died after Christ by some 50 years. And she two was formed into the one new man. Not not apart from sin. For all formed into the one new man are of sin and salvation. NO SIN then you can't be saved. And you can't go to heaven.
The righteous of Christ is now the requirement to go to heaven. That righteous has to come from Christ alone and is for sinners alone.
Some one said Mary had a union with GOD as in man and wife. Indeed that is not the case. Repent of this great wickedness and foolishness. Is God of sin. It would kill Mary if God were to have touched her. God created the seed in her via the Holy Spirit. He did not himself in any way have relations with her. HOW wicked are the imaginations of men.
Mary was a virgin whom gave birth, She knew no man. And she did not know God either in that way. She had not had sex period. It is twisted to even think she had. And of wickedness to imply GOD had sex with her. He formed Christ in her womb with out breaking the hymen declaring NO covenant marriage existed between him and the sinful flesh of man. Christ had to be born not in sin or of sin. Thus HE was Holy and sinless from birth. God created him like he did the original Adam with out sex.
Mary is creation Jesus is the creator.
Father God is married to Israel. Son God is married to the believer. Mary was married to Joseph in the flesh. If she was married to God she would be in adultery. She was not married to God. She is a servant of the creator. And she mothered the Christ. But is not his mother as in literal mother. But in the temporal and figurative.
You do not see Mary spoke of in revelation. You see God the father in heaven and Jesus the Lamb and the 24 elders and the church. Mary is of the bride of Christ, all the born again. All of the bride of Christ are born again sinners.

NOW GIVE EAR AND GIVE ANSWER!
Which is greater the temple or he whom created the Temple?
Did Got bruise Mary for you?
Did God Give Mary as a light to the gentles?
Did God write volumns about her fortelling of her Glory and of her day?
Did the Prophets of old spend thousands of hours looking into the things of Mary's Kingdom and the Day that Mary would Rule?
Did Mosus declare MAry's law to the People?
Was Mary the one whom opened the blinded eyes?
Was Mary the one whom walked on water?
Was Mary the Rocks of salavation spoek of my God himself?
Is Mary seated at the right hand of God?
Is Mary the foundation of the Church or Christ the solid Rock?
Is MAry the builder and the finisher of our faith?
MAke straight the paths of your feet? And consider the words you speak and the foolishness there of, for a stone is indeed falling and a nation is destroyed and yet they cry out we do not know of what he speaks. nor of his words have we understood. What does he declare, what does he mean. All are blinded in sin and all are fallen. None does right not one. Turn and see for the wall shall fall and a nation shall be blinded by a great sight for God shall become a rock of stumbling to the wicked and the priest. He shall casue a river to overtake them and his hand shall reach in and geither for the threashing floor is bear. The chaft shall be driven and the harfest shall be geithered into the bard of the Lord.
But many shall be driven out whom would not bow before his Glory whom wore not ashes but gloried in vanity. Surly God is Just and He alone is Lord whom is Glorifed through the Son and his heirs. Make straight the paths. Rebuild the walls and do the work. Preach the Gosple and above all things consider whom has created all things and whom delighted in the sufferings of the Son, whom gave us a Son whom died for us that we whom were dead in sin could pertake of salvation. Case down all foolishness and repent. Seek he the pure milk of the word and stop you vane babbeling.
God is the Glory. Not created mankind. Praise God alone, Worship God alone. Christ alone is the rock of salvation. Mary prayed to God the Father in the name of Jesus. Why do you not desire to pray as Mary.
Peter is dead he can't hear you or Answer you. Mary is dead and she can't hear you not speak to you. All are in Christ. Christ alone hears and finishes and corrects our prayers. Christ alone is setting in the presents of God the Father. Christ alone is your mediator. Christ alone redeemed you. Christ alone is sinless and overcame sin. Christ alone was given for salvation. THE FATHER DELIGHTED TO Glorify the Son. All power is given to him and he alone is salvation. And he shares not his Glory with man. Christ was Glorified in his Sufferings as accursed yet sinless poured out for the salvation of the world. GOD delighted in Christ and exalted Christ.
Hail Christ the creater to all the living and the redeemer of all the body.
The Glory if God is found in one place in Christ. The Hope of the nations are in Christ. The hope of all Glory is in Christ. The message is about Christ. The savior is Christ. The way is Christ. The path is Christ. The spirit of truth is Christ. The wisdom is Christ. The power is Christ. The way is Christ. The answer is Christ. Glorify Christ and no other. Christ alone is Holy. Christ alone is worthy. Christ alone is gvern to all.

WarriorAngel said:

Mary - was without sin - for the purpose of taking the place of Eve - who cooperated in the fall - so God had another woman who would cooperate in the redemption - of like substance. IE - sinless - because she was the New Eve.
And why do ppl insist God is not entitled to these miracles?

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I don't think anyone questions if God could do such a miracle if He would choose to. For me the question still remains why did Mary have to be "sinless?" Even Jesus, when He was Incarnated, had to overcome temptation in the same way we do, with the Word of God, (see Mat 4), and I would say Mary had to do that too. Jesus did not grow up in a sinless world, so why did He need a sinless Mother? The miracle would be even more apparent should Jesus be born "of a woman" as Galations puts it.

Gal_4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

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The type of woman being referred to here in Gal is not a sinless one.

I won't keep arguing about this. My questions are sincere, I am just trying to clarify that point, and I want to remain friends!

WarriorAngel said:

Just because things are not stated - doesnt mean it didnt occur.

Mary appeared to St Luke - who created the first icon - he painted the 1st Theotokos holding the Christ Child.

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Hi W.A

There was a lot in your post I could challenge, but from what I see you are merely throwing out the 'party line' so to speak...especially on the whole second Eve concept...and I haven't time to go all round the houses on those issues just now.

However can you just tell me where you get the information on Luke, I would like to have a look at the source myself?....thanks.

Zazal said:

Hi W.A

There was a lot in your post I could challenge, but from what I see you are merely throwing out the 'party line' so to speak...especially on the whole second Eve concept...and I haven't time to go all round the houses on those issues just now.

However can you just tell me where you get the information on Luke, I would like to have a look at the source myself?....thanks.

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Painting of Our Lady by St. Luke

Thanks for sourcing those for me, I have checked them both through.

In fairness what has been stated would never hold water under scrutiny, or be a viable witness in court...here let me put up the info:

This image of Mary, the Mother of Jesus Christ, was painted by St. Luke. It was carried by St. Thomas the apostle to India about one thousand, nine hundred and fifty years ago. Today, Mary continues to be venerated through this painting. It is kept at the main altar in the Church of Mount St. Thomas in Madras, India, the place where St. Thomas was martyred for the Catholic Faith. We see that devotion to Mary goes back to the time of the apostles, who were personally devoted to the Mother of God. The apostles, wherever they went, encouraged all the disciples to honor Mary as their Mother because Jesus gave Her to be the Mother of us all.

Things that cannot be substantiated aredisclosed as fact, and amongst it is the childish idea that everything has the Qed stamp of authenticity and therefore the teaching of Marian devotion is proven because the Apostles taught it.

Atheists often accuse Christians of blind-faith, and I have had many arguments and discussions that try to show that faith is not blind, but built upon a solid foundation and that even some of the undefinable miraculous elements are 'reasonable' given the context and overall weight of historical testimony and testable accounts given by reliable believable witnesses.

We are encouraged to have a 'child-like' faith in our walk with G-d...I understand that to mean that as a child trusts their human father (generally) so we should trust our Heavenly Father once we have come into sonship through Jesus...However, the Fatima site make childish connections and assumptions very much in the vein of cultish teachings, that are often so full of holes that none of the devotees can see it, but everyone else can.

The second site was slightly better and talked about the possibility of Luke painting this picture as being based in tradition and folk-law...which like so many things need to be weighed against what has been systematically revealed to us through the trustworthy pages of Scripture...not on a 'sola scriptura' basis, but with the knowledge that if it is contradictory or devisive, the chances are it is not compatible with 'sound doctrine' and as such should be treated with suspicion at the very least, rather than embraced.

I am painfully aware that such argument does not usually fall on fertile soil, because the teaching of the RCC Church always trumps it, and someone like myself is seen almost as a blasphemous infidel who has barely scraped into the Kingdom of G-d, and therefore knows nothing and has nothing constructive or informed to say regarding matters to which the RCC Church has already given its seal of approval.

The Fatima site that you directed us to is particularly disturbing (to me) and has an atmosphere about it that troubles mt spirit....I don't want to get side-tracked, but I thought I would mention it as others that visit it might have similar misgivings.

Zazal - if i may be so bold.
Nothing about Christ would hold up in court.

If it did, do you think atheists would be atheists?

Second, the problem i feel is - ppl [as you have just done] say 'I understand that to mean...'
Which completely eliminates the need for a teacher from God.
IF He meant for us to have it anyway we deem fit, He would not have established men to teach or quite obviously - anything whatsoever.
No rules, no guidelines, no Apostles to go out and teach.

Faith as a child - is innocently believing - without all the doubts that God can be. Because without faith - the entire Christian notion cannot exist. Because doubters say the same things about the entire establishment of Christianity.
Using their arguments even in small portions - for whatever someone chooses - has frequently in the past - led ppl to eventually become agnostic and atheist.

Innocent faith says 'God can do as He pleases - and He is a mystery to us. So i shall believe.'
To be frank - God doesnt make sense to anyone. And He isnt meant to. He is Beyond our comprehension. And to pretend we understand Him - is dishonest to even ourselves.
We pray - millions each day - yet He hears us all. Atheists call that a myth. But He [Entire Trinity] isnt human - He is the Creator - and He shall do what He shall do...and He doesnt have to explain Himself. For His ways are not ours. We cannot counsel God - and sadly many believe they are able.

When ppl tear things apart bit by bit - doubts begin to surface, and now they are no longer believing as a child. They are demanding evidence. Oddly - they demand evidence for some things - yet easily accept others - all products from Tradition.
Incarnation
Hypostatic Union
Trinity
Omniscense.
etc

But faith - that leads to more grace. More grace begets more grace - as we humbly submit to our prelates - the Bishops - more graces come still - to understand that we simply do not understand and we trust and trust is grace.

For grace is from the Holy Spirit - Who fills us with more faith. Therefore, what the Father has given the Son cannot be snatched from His hand.

Atheists do not comprehend grace - or simply let go of it when they allowed doubts to overcome their senses.
Grace however; doesnt come from human understanding and evidence - it comes from God. And not all things are understood by all - that doesnt eliminate their truth.

WarriorAngel said:

When ppl tear things apart bit by bit - doubts begin to surface, and now they are no longer believing as a child. They are demanding evidence. Oddly - they demand evidence for some things - yet easily accept others - all products from Tradition.
Incarnation
Hypostatic Union
Trinity
Omniscense.
etc

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Incarnation, Trinity, Hypostatic union, Omniscense are NOT products of tradition, but Scripture.

For example, while the word “trinity” is not found in the Scriptures, the concept is found there from beginning to end. There is no question about it—the doctrine of the Trinity is divinely revealed biblical truth: our one God exists in three "Persons" (The Father, the Son and the Holy-Spirit).

Christ raised Himself from the dead.

Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. John 2:19


The Holy-Spirit raised Christ from the dead.

But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwells in you. Romans 8:11


God raised Christ from the dead.

God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of the fact. Acts 2:32

sorry to interrupt; but what is "Hypostatic Union" referring to? I likely know what it is, but not under that terminology?

Lion King said:

Incarnation, Trinity, Hypostatic union, Omniscense are NOT products of tradition, but Scripture.

For example, while the word “trinity” is not found in the Scriptures, the concept is found there from beginning to end. There is no question about it—the doctrine of the Trinity is divinely revealed biblical truth: our one God exists in three "Persons" (The Father, the Son and the Holy-Spirit).

Christ raised Himself from the dead.

Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. John 2:19


The Holy-Spirit raised Christ from the dead.

But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwells in you. Romans 8:11


God raised Christ from the dead.

God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of the fact. Acts 2:32

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Scripture does not unto itself define itself. Scriptures are often times defined by the reader. Without concept of the meaning - they can be derived many different ways.
If it werent for an authority to derive its meaning and give full context - those same scriptures could clearly be understood a completely different way.
One need only ask a Jehovah Witness for their own input.

You are correct - it is Divinely revealed - but via Tradition and not in writing.

Castaway57 said:

sorry to interrupt; but what is "Hypostatic Union" referring to? I likely know what it is, but not under that terminology?

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A theological term used with reference to the Incarnation to express the revealed truth that in Christ one person subsists in two natures, the Divine and the human.

And lest we forget - if not for ages past of early Church heretics who believed they could interpret the scriptures themselves - the councils that handed down these terms and understandings would have never existed.

WarriorAngel said:

You are correct - it is Divinely revealed - but via Tradition and not in writing.

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Let's agree to disagree.

Tradition did not teach me anything about the Godhead; the Scriptures did.