How can Mary be sinless > 1 John 4:3

Castaway57 said:

You have been very aggressive and unfair to the Catholics on this topic, especially in what you tried to say re John the Baptist. And I would add that you do not appear to know the Word quite as well as you say you do.

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Thank you Castaway. Your charity is obvious to all.

Referring to Joseph10's posts, you are very observant. It is not difficult for anyone to see that he is errant with regard to scripture, and prejudiced against Mary. Not surprising at all, since scripture says of Satan and his seed, "I will put enmity between you and the woman, between your seed and her seed; he shall crush your head, and you shall lie in wait for his heel." Gen. 3:15. The hatred toward Mary, especially in our last days, is increasing with overwhelming vitriol.

Many may be unaware of Martin Luther's reverence for her (as well as Calvin's and Zwingli's) Do these people listen to their founders?

Mary is exalted above all angels and saints because God chose and prepared her, filled her with his grace to be his Mother. He drew from her freedom, by the premotion of grace, the full Fiat by which he accomplished the Incarnation. Christians who have not forgotten how to call her blessed know this well. "Men have crowded all her glory into a single phrase: the Mother of God. No one can say anything greater of her, though he had as many tongues as there are leaves on the trees" (Martin Luther, Commentary on the Magnificat).

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Luther wrote, "She is full of grace, proclaimed to be entirely without sin. . . . God's grace fills her with everything good and makes her devoid of all evil. . . . God is with her, meaning that all she did or left undone is divine and the action of God in her. Moreover, God guarded and protected her from all that might be hurtful to her."(Jaroslav Pelikan, ed., Luther's Works (St. Louis: Concordia), vol. 43, 40.)

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Max Thurian, while still Protestant, wrote, "In regard to the Marian doctrine of the Reformers, we have already seen how unanimous they are in all that concerns Mary's holiness and perpetual virginity. Whatever the theological position which we may hold today in regard to the Immaculate Conception and Assumption of Mary, . . . these two Catholic dogmas were accepted by certain Reformers, not of course in their present form, but certainly in the form that was current in their day."(Max Thurian, Mary, Mother of All Christians (New York: Herder and Herder, 1964), 197.)

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I conclude that since Luther and the Reformation, there have arisen 25,000 denominations, and each new founder has taught his own new doctrine, apart from Catholicism, and apart from the Reformers. How can anyone trust them, each proclaiming a different truth? Does Jesus leave us orphans, against his promise?

The Magnificat teaches us that "all generations will call me blessed." Catholics honor her and call her blessed in accordance with scripture. Do fundamentalists listen to that verse and honor her with that title?

Castaway57 said:

Hey thanks for that link. It explains a bunch of things I have been wondering about Catholic thinking. Although I would interpret certain points differently; I appreciated the most that chart at the end of the article. it will come in handy for further study.

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Thank you for your charity. May the love of Christ bring all of those who adore Him closer in unity.

Standing Up said:

Yes, we're all saved the same way. But was Abraham "born again"? Born of water and Spirit?

Abraham saw ahead to His day. We live in it. So, not clear to me that anyone, pre resurrection, was "born again".

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How will the OT saints enter the Kingdom of God if they were not born again (John 3:3-6)?

Lion King said:

How will the OT saints enter the Kingdom of God if they were not born again (John 3:3-6)?

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Truthfully, they entered it. Some like to cherry-pick scriptures to make it mean what they believe, rather than believe the truth. But other scriptures contradict theirs. I'll get back on this.

Do you not understand that Abraham, Mary & John the Baptist are born from below. Born of sin and in sin.

Jesus was bron from above of purity and with out sin.
Jesus is the only divine person whom ever walked on the earth. He came out of the Father and became flesh. For all flesh had sinned in the sight of God. Jesus is the only begotton son of God. He infact is God in the flesh.

Mary was a daughter of the promise of Abraham sold into the law and under the bondage of the law. From the day of her birth. Mary is indeed honored as she did great service to God in accepting the will of God. Yet it is not the clay that is glorifed But God in this matter. Weather a divine act of God took place or not is not the issue. God is not divided his word is his declared truth on the whole of the matter. Some one said i was hard on the catholics. Whom are the catholics. I am speaking to all not just the catholics. Yet if you desire to be offended becasue of the word of our Lord and savior let you offence be delivered to the cross that you shall not bear the sin of offence.

God has declared through Christ, the apostles and the prophets.

"ALL have sinned and None has done good"
Jesus declared
" none does Good"

Someone said you do not know Gods word very well. I wish that were the case.

No were in the holy scriptures of God as delivered to the saints via the prophets, the apostles and the Christ is Mary or any person in the bible elevated to the position of Sinnless, or a Ark of the new covenat or a purpectuial virgin. These things are foolishness and vane imaginations.

Mary did no mericals according to scriptures. Even the conception of Christ was by the Holy Spirit. Mary did not even have a hand in that. She was not Christ Mother in a spiritual sence. Christ declared this.

"whom is my mother and my brothers" Those whom do the will of God"

But Mary was in direct disobidence at that very moment with her son trying to take Christ from the temple he was speaking in and it was nto God will for Christ to leave the temple at that moment. This was just one of Marys sins.

Christ own words, Christ while in the flesh came thru the flesh. But was not of the flesh of man. He came in the likness of sinful flesh. This flesh he had was with out stain. Sinless flesh not or natural origin. His flesh and his spirit were both divine. His body was not of Mary's DNA. For sin had entered into all the earth and into all flesh. For all were sold under sin from the beginning.

So does the bible ever say that Christ bore the flesh of this sinful world. Indeed not it states that he came in the likness of sinful flesh. Yet with our sin. As you read the creation account you will see that God walked in the garden. A spirit has not legs. Christ was from the beganning with flesh. It is christ image man was created in from the very start of creation. Christ was the one whom prepared the skins for Adan and Eve.

So was Mary sinless because she bore the promised Christ. Indeed not Christ was created to live in the sinful not the sinless. He whom knew no sin was made sin for us that he might live in us. Do you not know that Christ is God. God is not a respector of persons and that includes Mary.

Mary was a created being. The creator was God.

Christ was with the father from the beginning. He is the Word of God. All things come through him and are his. Mary was his creation he was not her creation. The Holy Spirit created Christ in Mary and prepared his flesh to be able to live in Mary. He did that not by preparing Marys flesh but by giving Christ a flesh that was in the likeness of sinful flesh but not of sin.

Christ flesh was not as our flesh. If was of a different manner. Pure undefiled and spotless. Mary like all people had a flesh sold under sin and under the was sinful. For what ever is not of God is of the flesh.

Joseph was betroved to Mary before the Conception. Thus she was in adultry by carrying Christ if you look from the physical prespective. But it was Gods will. Of course we know the rest of the story. Mary submited to Gods desire, I commend her. Mary is not the mother of all creation. EVE is.

Mary is not to be worshiped as many do today. She is not a co-redeemer. He blood provides no atonement. She is not a High priest. She is not sinnless. Christ is the only sinless person whom ever walked on the face of the earth.

Mary is our sister. Not our mother. She indeed became born again. And this to God And Christ Glory. Do you not know that you must be born of sin before you can be born of Christ. And we whom are born of Christ are seated with Christ and pertakers of his divine nature and also heirs with Christ. Now if you are born of the flesh but not of spirit you shall die. But we are not of the flesh but of the spirit whom are of Christ. Should we declare Mary was born of the flesh of of the spirit of Christ. For indeed Mary was a Christian and a follower of Christ. To this end one can't contend with Mary need for a savior. For she was first to look upon that Hope of Glory and to see the face of God. But was she with out sin. Indeed not. And how much more aware of her sinful nature. or he whom looks upon the very face of God knows there own self. I am sure Mary was full of Grace. When she conceived grace/Christ. For Jesus is the GRACE spoke of. Not that mary was divine.

Thus it is written all Glory and all Horon belong to God.

Mary was a chossen vessel. Whom God knew would be a good mother and would raise Christ well. She was a charished vessel and God delighted in her. Her fathers served God well. She indeed was chosen to suffer and bear the shame of the Cross with Christ. Her sufferings are accounded to her as her Glory. Mary suffered greatly.
It is written he whom sufferes in the flesh is being prefected in the spirit. As Mary was in need of being prefected , she was in being moved from sinful to sinless.

I will assure you Mary was there when the blood of Christ fall from the cross. I will asure you she was the first to pertake of his blood. And she was the first to know fullly the pain and sufferings of Christ. Mary suffered with him and for him.

See i am not against honoring Mary, Mary is a graceful and loving woman. Highly esteemed amoung all. But Mary is not the promise, she is not divine, she is not before Christ or Father God. She is a Christian born again into Christ and his kingdom.

God and Christ are from before all creation.

Lion King said:

How will the OT saints enter the Kingdom of God if they were not born again (John 3:3-6)?

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They will have to born again from above. But when could that have happened to them? Prior to Christ's resurrection and ascension and Pentecost when the Spirit was poured out? I don't think so.

Besides, we know there was a resurrected company with Christ at His resurrection (Mt. 27:52). That was them (Adam, Eve, Abraham, Sarah, etc).

Mt. 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

Vines-
(b) It is used of men and things (see below) in so far as they are devoted to God. Indeed the quality, as attributed to God, is often presented in a way which involves Divine demands upon the conduct of believers. These are called hagioi, "saints," i.e., "sanctified" or "holy" ones.

So, we agree the OT saints are born again. The question is when? If before Christ's resurrection, then what's the point of His redeeming us? IOW, if redemption (born-again) was possible prior to His advent, what was the point of His walking amongst us?

St_Barnabus said:

Truthfully, they entered it. Some like to cherry-pick scriptures to make it mean what they believe, rather than believe the truth. But other scriptures contradict theirs. I'll get back on this.

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How's the mirror look?

St_Barnabus said:

The hatred toward Mary, especially in our last days, is increasing with overwhelming vitriol.

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Hatred towards Mary? Can you show us one post that shows hatred towards Mary?

Jesus was ask to teach how to pray. His reply. Instructed us to pray to the Father. We as born again believers have been instructed from the beginning to pray to the Father in the Name of the son. We do not pray to saints. We pray to God himself.

And no prayer to mary will be answered. Mary is a saint. She is sinful creation redeemed by Grace. God has made one the mediator of the new covenant Jesus Christ. None other then Christ has that function and role. That is his station for all times. He alone makes right the prayers of the saints. You will not find Peter Paul Mark or Mary spoke of in the bible or revelation as being able to answer prayers.
There is a reason. They all prayer to God in Jesus name.

You know Mary understood that Jesus was indeed Gods Christ. So how is it that when you pray the rosary that you are not making Mary equal to God. For instead of praying to the Father you are saying Hail Mary, when Christ said pray our Father.

In other words you have made Mary a god. When Mary her self prayer to God the Father in the name of the son.

The trinity is Father Son and Holy Spirit, not Daughter, father son and Holy Spirit.
And Mary can't answer a prayer.

The focus of the new testiment is not Mary it is Christ. The focus of a Christian that is born again is Christ. Our Gosple is about what Christ did and about Gods love for us as shown by the sufferings of Christ. The message is about Christ. We are sown into Christ, we suffer unto Christ, We are glorified in Christ and raised in Christ. The message of the chuch is about What God did with Christ through Christ and for Christ. The message is not about Paul, Mark, Luke, Abraham, Moses or Mary it is unto and about Christ. To God be the Glory not to the saints. To Christ be the redeemed.

No were in the prophets or the apostles do we read about all this none sence you have spoke about Mary it is pure fiction and not the truth as declared in the Words of Gods servents.

Jesus said i am the door. In reference to the Ark of God which had one door. Christ indeed is the door of salvation. The Ark had threee levels. Heaven had three levels.
The Ark was prepared by a single person. Christ was build by God himself. Mary had a mother and a father of flesh. Christ had one whom built him the Holy Spirit.

Christ is the Door to God that door soon to be closed by God himself. Even as God closed the door to the first Ark. You will notice that Mary is not shown in that picture. Because the Gosple is not about Mary it is about the suffering Christ.

The Gosple is the good news that God has make a way of salvation for all men. And Jesus is that door not Mary. Jesus blood not mingled with Marys is the offerings that Jesus provided on the cross and then presented to God the Father and poured it our on the offerings seat once and for all times. Ending to seperation between God and man.

The blood of a child is not the blood of his parents. A child in the womb has his own blood. Most oftern even a different blood type. A child body in the womb pulls needed materials from the mothers physical body. But a child has his own blood. Not the blood of the parent.

Christ was born of a woman, but he was not of woman. He was God in the flesh. His blood did not have the stain of sin. Thus it was Holy. Marys blood indeed had the stain of sin. Christ not only had to have a sinless blood but sinless body and life.
Mary had normal flesh. Christ did not his flesh was divine he was with out spot. Perfected in the womb. No. He was prefected in his suffering according to Gods words. And that by obidence.

Are you being prefected in praying to Mary. For God had said you shall have no other gods before me. Christ said you are gods! Is Mary your Christ? Was Mary slain before the foundatons of the world? Was Mary there at Creation? How does disobidence prefect you?

Am i a messanger of Mary or of Christ. I am indeed a messanger come to witness for Christ and if Christ alone. For i am sown into Christ and Christ into me. I indeed oppose any message other then Christ and his finished work. Mary is my fellow worker and we are not worthy of honor or praise or Glory. Mary would rebulke you to your face. As i do.

Lion King said:

Hatred towards Mary? Can you show us one post that shows hatred towards Mary?

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You read too much into my post, LK. I was speaking generally, not to anyone here in specific. This is not the first forum or blog or whatever media mode that attacks Catholic Marian theology.

Standing Up said:

How's the mirror look?

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My goodness, such a friendly place to chat, huh?

You guys carry on. It isn't worth my time or trouble, since you know it all already.

Standing Up said:

They will have to born again from above. But when could that have happened to them? Prior to Christ's resurrection and ascension and Pentecost when the Spirit was poured out? I don't think so.

So, we agree the OT saints are born again. The question is when? If before Christ's resurrection, then what's the point of His redeeming us? IOW, if redemption (born-again) was possible prior to His advent, what was the point of His walking amongst us?

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Then the Spirit of the Lord will come upon you, and you will prophesy with them and be turned into another man. And let it be, when these signs come to you, that you do as the occasion demands; for God is with you. You shall go down before me to Gilgal; and surely I will come down to you to offer burnt offerings and make sacrifices of peace offerings. Seven days you shall wait, till I come to you and show you what you should do.”

So it was, when he had turned his back to go from Samuel, that God gave him another heart; and all those signs came to pass that day. 1 Samuel 10:6-9


What do you call that?

Besides, we know there was a resurrected company with Christ at His resurrection (Mt. 27:52). That was them (Adam, Eve, Abraham, Sarah, etc).

Mt. 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

Vines-
(b) It is used of men and things (see below) in so far as they are devoted to God. Indeed the quality, as attributed to God, is often presented in a way which involves Divine demands upon the conduct of believers. These are called hagioi, "saints," i.e., "sanctified" or "holy" ones.

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I respectfully disagree.

The saints that rose from the grave after Christ's resurrection, were not Adam, Eve, Abraham, Sarah etc.

Brothers, I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. Acts 2:29

As you can see, Peter was recorded as saying that David was still dead and buried, even after Christ's ascension. Those who rose with Christ at His resurrection, all died again, for the Scriptures say that Christ was the first one to be resurrected to live forever and everyone else at His return.

But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Matthew 27:53

And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. Daniel 12:2



All those who died in Christ are still in their graves patiently awaiting for the resurrection of the dead.

St_Barnabus said:

My goodness, such a friendly place to chat, huh?

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Originally Posted by St_Barnabus

Lion King said:

Then the Spirit of the Lord will come upon you, and you will prophesy with them and be turned into another man. And let it be, when these signs come to you, that you do as the occasion demands; for God is with you. You shall go down before me to Gilgal; and surely I will come down to you to offer burnt offerings and make sacrifices of peace offerings. Seven days you shall wait, till I come to you and show you what you should do.”

So it was, when he had turned his back to go from Samuel, that God gave him another heart; and all those signs came to pass that day. 1 Samuel 10:6-9


What do you call that?

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What it says---Spirit came upon them. But were they reborn from above? Believe it's two different things.

I respectfully disagree.

The saints that rose from the grave after Christ's resurrection, were not Adam, Eve, Abraham, Sarah etc.

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It was at the time of His resurrection. Not after. What saints died during that 3 day/night stretch?

Brothers, I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. Acts 2:29

As you can see, Peter was recorded as saying that David was still dead and buried, even after Christ's ascension. Those who rose with Christ at His resurrection, all died again, for the Scriptures say that Christ was the first one to be resurrected to live forever and everyone else at His return.

But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Matthew 27:53

And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. Daniel 12:2



All those who died in Christ are still in their graves patiently awaiting for the resurrection of the dead.

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So, you don't think anyone has been born-again? Or you think the OT saints are born-again, but still in their graves, like NT saints? What's born-again mean to you?

This has been a very interesting study on the sinless nature of Mary. But what you all fall to take into consideration is that we all know in part and understand in part. Until the vail is removed we will not know exactly what the extent of the matter is.

The simple truth is we live according to the Word of God and its instruction or we error. Did mary sin. Of course she did that is a none issue actually. No matter what we might want to think. God finished the question before it was even ask.
" All have sinned and fallen short of the Glory'

Simply said why are you debating what is declared truth by God himself. God can't lie and Gods word on the matter is finished. Anyother teaching on the matter is of satan the father of all lies. Which is the main issue will you believe God or Satan.

ALL ( every stinking person that ever lived in the planet). The popes the prophets the apostles and the Mary the blessed.

Traditions make the word of God of no use. If your tradition twist this simple declared truth that God himself has stated. Then indeed you can't grow in Christ for Christ has not part of a lie. Christ is the truth all else is of the evil one.

That is why i have spoke of this matter. You declare foolishness. I declare Christ the hope of all Glory. You declare Mary was sinnless. I point to the sinless one Christ. For my boast is in Christ as are my chains. You declare Mary is the mother of God. I declare Christ was slain before the foundations of the world.

Standing Up said:

What it says---Spirit came upon them. But were they reborn from above? Believe it's two different things.

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So it was, when he had turned his back to go from Samuel, that God gave him another heart; and all those signs came to pass that day. 1 Samuel 10:9

What does it mean to be given a new heart by God?

It was at the time of His resurrection. Not after. What saints died during that 3 day/night stretch?

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Why the 3 days stretch only?

I believe the saints that rose from the graves at the time of Jesus Christ's crucifixion and resurrection, were godly men who had died sometime before Christ was crucified.

So, you don't think anyone has been born-again? Or you think the OT saints are born-again, but still in their graves, like NT saints? What's born-again mean to you?

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The OT saints, like the NT saints, were all "born again" by God, but are still in their graves till the resurrection of the dead.

To me, being born again is to be given a new heart and Spirit by God.

A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. Ezekiel 36:26

Why do you think Mary did not sin. when Christ was preaching in the temple and she and her sons thought Jesus was insane. They went to get him and called for him. But he would not come out. They were being lead by whom to stop the work of God. Satan of course or was she following her heart. Either way she sinned and christ deneyed her in that he said. Whom is my mother and my brothers. When that do the will of God. but as he did not go out to her. He declared her sin in seeking to remove him from his task as appointed by God. For she was trying to stop the work of God. Her sin is pride.

So want to ask if Mary was sinless aymore. ALL HAve sinned.

joseph10 said:

Why do you think Mary did not sin. when Christ was preaching in the temple and she and her sons thought Jesus was insane. They went to get him and called for him. But he would not come out. They were being lead by whom to stop the work of God. Satan of course or was she following her heart. Either way she sinned and christ deneyed her in that he said. Whom is my mother and my brothers. When that do the will of God. but as he did not go out to her. He declared her sin in seeking to remove him from his task as appointed by God. For she was trying to stop the work of God. Her sin is pride.

So want to ask if Mary was sinless aymore. ALL HAve sinned.

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So Christ sinned joseph10?