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How can God save us if He does not Substitute Christ for us?

RC_NewProtestants

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Ok...please kindly explan to me how we are saved if its not substitutionary doctrine. I am always open to learning.

Adventtruth

Unfortunately we by and large have little knowledge about Christian church history. Actually it is true of most Christians today. We know what our denomination believes today but we don't know how we got to that place. The Christian church has a long history of trying to answer the question of how we are saved, what the atonement of Jesus does.

So here is an explaination to begin this topic with. You will notice that the substititionary theory is relatively late, yet for many it is the only theory they have ever heard of (excluding the Greek Orthodox church who it seems have never held the substitutionary view)
http://newprotestants.com/ATONHIST1.htm


Atonement History
The Christian Churches attempts to understand Christ’s Atonement and Sacrifice.


The following theories are listed in chronological order. However multiple theories may exist concurrently.


Moral Influence Theory
The Apostolic Fathers About 100-200 AD Vague time frame.
Their chief emphasis is on what Christ imparted to us: new Knowledge, Fresh life, Immortality.


Clement states: Through Him God has called us from darkness to light from ignorance to knowledge of the glory of His name. Clement further says that Christ endured it all on account of us and that His sufferings should bring us to repentance.
Hemas adds that Christ reveals to us the true God. Barnabas notes that He came to abolish death and to demonstrate resurrection from the dead.


Reiterated by Abelard in the 1100’s


Apologists also about 100-200 AD
The ideas stayed much the same with the Apologists with the addition of the concept that not only does God impart saving knowledge and bestow illumination, but principalities and powers are destroyed by Him. Justin says that the aim of the incarnation was the conquest of the serpent. Justin further adds that Christ became a man for our sakes, so that participating in our miseries He might heal them. The essence of the Moral Influence theory is that Christ’s Atoning work is directed to leading man to repentance and faith by revealing the true nature of God


Irenaeus about 180 AD
The Theory of Recapitulation (AKA Physical Theory, Mystical Theory)


This idea presupposes some kind of mystical solidarity or identity, between the father of the race and all his descendants. At the time of the fall they somehow already existed in Adam. Thus Irenaeus states that just as Adam contained in himself all his descendants (which is how all have sinned by Adams sin) so Christ recapitulated in Himself all the dispersed peoples dating back to Adam, all tongues and the whole race of mankind, along with Adam himself. His conclusion is that humanity which was seminally present in Adam has been given the opportunity of making a new start in Christ, the second Adam, through incorporation in his mystical body. The original Adam by disobedience introduced the principle of sin and death, but Christ by His obedience has reintroduced the principle of life and immortality. Because He is identified with the human race at every phase of it existence, He restores fellowship with God to all. To Irenaeus it is obedience that God requires, and in order to exhibit such obedience, Christ had to live His life through all its stages, not excluding death itself.


Origen 184-254

Origen, who had one of the greatest influences on Christian thinking, incorporated a wide range of reasons for Christ’s sacrifice. His views incorporated elements of knowledge and illumination, mysticism, Jesus as model, Ransom to the Devil, and ideas of substitution. Origen was an extremely creative thinker, however many of his ideas border on the bizarre.


Ransom Theory about 350-400
This theory with elements taken from Origen interprets the death of Christ as a Ransom paid by God to Satan in order to secure the redemption of humanity, which has been brought under his dominion by sin.


Different writers had various options on this theory. Some admitted the possession of his captives, and the death is interpreted as a ransom due to the devil on grounds of justice. Others denied the devil has a right to sinners, but by God’s graciousness in being unwilling to take by force that which was rightfully His. Still others felt that man’s deliverance was secured by deception on God’s part. Satan being deceived by the humble appearance of the Redeemer into supposing that he had to do with a mere man. Finding only too late that the Deity whose presence he had not perceived escaped his clutches through the Resurrection.


Some of the adherents to this view include Augustine, Gregory the Great, Gregory of Nyssa. Amazingly enough this theory lasted for several centuries.


Satisfaction Theory 1100
This theory was first produced in a clear coherent manner by Anselm in his treatise, Cur Deus Homo, which translated means Why a Godman? Anselm finds no reason in justice why God was under any obligation to Satan. Anselm maintains that Christ’s Atonement concerns God and not the devil. Man by his sin has violated the honor of God and defiled His handiwork. It is not consistent with the Divine self-respect that He should permit His purpose to be thwarted. Yet this purpose requires the fulfillment by man of the perfect law of God, which by sin man has transgressed. For this transgression, repentance is no remedy. Since penitence, however sincere, cannot atone for the guilt of past sin. Nor can any finite substitute, whether man or angel make reparation. Sin being against the infinite God, is infinitely guilty, and can be atoned for only by an infinite satisfaction. Thus either man must be punished and God’s purpose fail or else man must make an infinite satisfaction, which is impossible. There is only one way of escape, and that is that someone should be found who can unite in his own person the attributes both of humanity and of infinity. This is brought about by the incarnation of Christ. In Christ we have one who is very man, and can therefore make satisfaction to God on behalf of humanity, but who is at the same time very God, and whose person therefore gives infinite worth to the satisfaction which He makes. Christ death which is voluntarily given when it is not due since He was without sin, is the infinite satisfaction which secures the salvation of man.


Substitution Theory 1500’s (AKA Penal Theory)

The Protestant view held many of Anselm's presuppositions regarding Christ’s Atonement. However it was modified in one very substantial way. The central position of the Atonement was interpreted not as satisfaction, but as punishment, and hence given a substitutionary significance. The infinite guilt of man’s sin which has so utterly alienated mankind from the Kingdom of Heaven that none but a person reaching to God can be the medium of restoring peace. Such an efficient mediator is found in Christ alone. Through whose atoning death the price of man’s forgiveness is paid and a way of salvation made open. Calvin considers the Atonement not as a meritorious satisfaction accepted as a substitute for punishment, but as the vicarious endurance by Christ of that punishment itself. Calvin denies that God was ever hostile to Christ or angry with Him, yet in His Divine providence He suffered His Son to go through the experience of those against whom God is thus hostile. In His own consciousness, Christ bore the weight of the Divine anger, was smitten and afflicted, and experienced all the signs of an angry and avenging God.


The Penal Theory was severally criticized by the Socinians, who attacked the entire concept of substitutionary punishment. They held that punishment and forgiveness are inconsistent ideas. If a man is punished he cannot be forgiven, and vice versa. Under the theory of distributive justice, punishment, being a matter of the relation between individual guilt and its consequences, is strictly untransferable. The Socinians held to the Moral Influence Theory as mentioned by the Apostolic Fathers and the Apologists of the second century church.


Governmental Theory (AKA Rectoral Theory)
In response to the Socinians Hugo Grotius wrote a work entitled The Satisfaction of Christ. Grotius was writing in defense of the Penal/Substitution Theory, however he, perhaps unknowingly modified the theory. In this view God does not deal with men as a judge but as a governor, who unlike a judge may temper justice with mercy, but the motives which lead him so to temperate are never arbitrary. Thus Christ’s death is a substitute for punishment, a suffering inflicted by God and voluntarily accepted by Christ, which works upon men by moral influence in order to conserve the ends of righteousness. Such suffering on Christ’s part is necessary, since forgiveness on the basis of repentance alone might be misinterpreted by men and lead to grave carelessness. Among Arminians it has practically supplanted the older Penal Theory.
These constitute the main Salvation/Atonement theories. However there are several variations on each of the above theories, as well as different combinations of the major theories by other Theologians.
Sources:


Early Christian Doctrines J.N.D. Kelly Harper & Row, Pub. New York 1960
pp. 163-183, 375-395
Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics Vol. 5 pp. 640-650
The New Schaff-Herzog Religious Encyclopedia pp. 349-356

 

Adventtruth

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Hey RC.

Thanks for the history lesson but I don't need it. I'm no spring chicken. I have been at study for years. I also have in my library and have studied "Bible History Old Testament" by Alfred Edersheim aswell as "History of the Church" by Philip Schaff.

I just need you to outline your understanding of the said objection with scripture.

Thanks.

Adventtruth
 
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woobadooba

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You won't find scripture to support this view. Eisegetical notions, yes; but not sound exegesis. To the contrary, the scriptures support the idea that Christ is our substitute ( Heb. 2:14-18), and that no one could go to the Father except through Him (Jn. 14:6). Meaning, Gal. 2:20 must become a reality to everyone who is to be saved. See Acts 2:38 and Rom. 6. Moreover, Romans 5 makes this point very clear, as does also Jn. 3:16.

Anyone who objects to this is guilty of espousing a heretical view of the atonement.

Of course, I realise that you agree with what I have said here. However, I just thought that I would insert it anyway for the purpose of demonstrating that you are not alone in what you believe on this matter.
 
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Adventtruth

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Of course, I realise that you agree with what I have said here. However, I just thought that I would insert it anyway for the purpose of demonstrating that you are not alone in what you believe on this matter.


Thanks woob. I would like to see his arguments. I have known about the other veiws for a while. I do believe Jack Sequeira and Weliand and Short refute a form of the substitutionary atonement aswel.

Adventtruth
 
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RC_NewProtestants

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Ok so you are aware that for the majority of the time of the Christian Church they believed that God was able to save without the aid of any substitution.

Just wanted to get that fact as a beginning point because your question assumed that God can not save except for through substitution.

Woob states:
To the contrary, the scriptures support the idea that Christ is our substitute ( Heb. 2:14-18)
Here are those verses, please point out the clearly substitution concepts in the verses

Being like humans is most likely the method by which God reveals Himself to man. Now you may read those verses and make the assumption that propitiation is used with its pagan roots as a method to appease and angry God but that is not likely the meaning the author intended. But at this point it says nothing of substitution. What we have is a reference to the humanity of Jesus as someone who is knowledgeable about the human condition. Now an all knowing God would already be knowledgeable so the demonstration is used to give assurance to man that Jesus really does understand.

It would probably be best for those who believe in penal substitution to demonstrate from the Bible their best verses. History has already shown that this is a newer Christian idea and whatever verses you think you can come up with have for a long time been used without being assumed to be substitutionary. And to really look at this stuff honestly we have to get away from the assumed meanings and look at the contextual meanings.



 
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woobadooba

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First of all, you are aware that the early church fathers didn't always teach things that are in harmony with the Bible, right?

Secondly, the passages that I have provided make it very clear that your view is false. If you are unwilling to see the truth in what they say, no argument that I present to you from this point on will suffice to convince you to believe otherwise.

Nevertheless, I will give ONLY one more further comment on this: those who died in the faith prior to Christ's Crucifixion were still reliant on the substitutionary death of the Lamb of God (Jesus Christ) for salvation, and were thus saved because God doesn't break His promises (Titus 1:2; Isa. 53:5). The juxtaposition of Romans 5 and Hebrews 11 makes this very clear.

The key in understanding the substitutionary concept insofar as it pertains to men that lived and died prior to the death of Christ, lies in understanding that God is not subject to time or space, but sees things that are future as though they have passed. Hence, He foreknew that He wouldn't fail His people, because God knows no failure. Thus He could inform His people in any manner that He so desired to address them, that they would be saved by whatever means were necessary to procure their salvation. In this case, He would have to die for His people, thus becoming the means to the end of their sin, and the road which paves the way to life eternal for all who would meet the condition of the promise as described in Jn. 3:16, and illustrated in times past via the sanctuary service.
 
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RC_NewProtestants

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First of all, you are aware that the early church fathers didn't always teach things that are in harmony with the Bible, right?
Yes and it is equally true that not everything that came out of the Reformation is in harmony with the Bible. The point was to leave behind presuppositions and read the Bible in its context.

For instance what are the requirements for you to forgive another person. Must they make restitution, must they be punished before they can be forgiven? Of course not. As is famously quoted in the Lord's Prayer; Forgive us as we forgive our debtors.

Secondly, the passages that I have provided make it very clear that your view is false. If you are unwilling to see the truth in what they say, no argument that I present to you from this point on will suffice to convince you to believe otherwise.
I provided that quote to you and it said nothing of substitution. That passage was provided by you and you said it:
To the contrary, the scriptures support the idea that Christ is our substitute ( Heb. 2:14-18),
Now I simply asked you to support your own statement and relate how those verses show substitution. If that is too hard for you then please feel free to end your part of the discussion. Because I will not tolerate the method that says "it is what I say it is because I say it is". That is worse then worthless and it projects Christians as uninfomed and unreasonable.
 
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woobadooba

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Hi RC. I do hope you I and Woob can have a great discussion here without tempers a flamed.

I am still hoping you will post your position from scripture as I asked above.

Adventtruth

I find it to be interesting that this is the second time you have asked this and haven't received a response.

As for myself, I make it a rule not to teach things that I can't immediately support with holy scripture. There are just too many people agreeing with ideas that they can't really prove are Biblically correct.

Sometimes I think such people have a low opinion of the Bible (not allowing its clear teachings to take precedence over their own ambiguous beliefs), which results in them not making good use of it in opportune times such as these. After all, the holy scriptures are designated to be used in this way (2Tim. 3:16-17)
 
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RC_NewProtestants

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Ok I will, I was hoping to provoke you guys into looking at why you believed what you believe about substitution. Because as woob pointed out many Penal/substitution theorists read into verses what they want to see. Rather then reading the context and allowing the scripture to say what it says.

So go and read my article at:
http://newprotestants.com/Subatone.htm

As it has to deal with a lot of stuff, to as you say relate a scriptural view it is longer then they may want posted here. But I will post the first section to hopefully spur interest.

What is wrong with the Substitutionary theory of the Atonement
If Christ died for me then he must be my substitute, right? A law of God was broken, so someone had to pay the penalty for breaking that law, right? Isn't God a God of Justice so He can't just forgive someone He has to play by the rules, right? When it comes right down to it, the law says someone had to die, so it was pretty nice that Jesus Christ died and paid my debt to God. These are just some of the answers or maybe the questions that the typical Christian thinks of when he ponders the idea of the substitution of Christ for us, in theological terms it is called the Substitutionary theory. Christians did not simply arrive at this theory over night, it took about 14 centuries to arrive upon the scene. It was a major outgrowth from Anselm's Satisfaction theory of the atonement. But when it arrived it took off like no other previous theories of the atonement ever did. (See Appendix 1) Accepted by the Roman Catholic and the Protestant alike, yet there are some who, as in the past do not accept the substitutionary theory as accurate.
What does the Substitutionary theory of the atonement say to us about God? To those who object to this theory, the problem is the implications that are drawn about God. These can be drawn into at least 3 broad categories.
1.Love
2.Justice
3.Law
Most people when looking at those three categories would see a close relationship between Law and Justice, while Love would be looked at as being on the opposite end of the spectrum. This is not at all surprising as in the western culture we live in, Justice is viewed in a penal setting, that is, to most people Justice is most related to punishment. Justice in a more Eastern or ancient tradition is more related to a restoration of harmony than to one of punishment. In the Greek language of the New Testament the same word is used for our English words of Justice and righteous, therefore in simple language righteousness is right doing and justice is also right doing.
So we can begin by acknowledging that God is righteous, certainly from the time of ancient Israel through the New Testament, God is prophetically spoken of as righteous. God by His righteousness provided to mankind principles which would aid man in his own quest to do what is right. So early on in the history of Israel we find the following guide to righteous living.
Have nothing to do with a false charge and do not put an innocent or honest person to death, for I will not acquit the guilty. (Exodus 23:7)
The Old Testament is replete with warnings not to shed the blood of the innocent, it is to this day one of the key principles of right doing. Yet in the substitutionary theory God is required to break one of His oldest principles of right doing. In this respect the substitutionary theory has much in common with the satisfaction theory. The idea in the Satisfaction theory is that man has so greatly insulted God by sin that only someone as infinite as God can provide satisfaction. The reformers who held to the penal theory of atonement AKA the Substitutionary Theory often spoke of Christ as suffering our punishment or appeasing the wrath of God in our place. To this day Christians will often say that Christ "paid the penalty" or "paid our debt". With the obvious, though often ignored implication that the penalty or debt is paid to someone and that someone must be to God. While certainly not as frequently mentioned as during the days following the reformation the idea of appeasement of God is just as certainly present today. Typified by the word propitiation in the King James Bible or as the author of the Living Bible Paraphrase puts it:
For God sent Christ Jesus to take the punishment for our sins and to end all God's anger against us. He used Christ's blood and our faith as the means of saving us from his wrath. In this way he was being entirely fair, even though he did not punish those who sinned in former times. For he was looking forward to the time when Christ would come and take away those sins. (Rom 3:25 TLB)
Compared with an actual translation:
God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished--(Rom 3:25 NIV)

Even in Contemporary Christians songs we see the idea. Most people have either sang the song or at least heard it, some of the lyrics go like this:
You came from heaven to earth to show the way From the earth to the cross, my debt to pay (Lord, I lift your name on High words and music by Rick Founds)
History tells us that the Socinians could not accept the substitutionary theory because it replaced the concept of forgiveness with that of debt payment. To them if a debt had to be paid then God was not really forgiving anything. The corollary which is just as repugnant is the idea that because the debt was paid then God could forgive people. As if God could not forgive until appeased or persuaded to forgive mankind. To them God was perfectly capable of freely forgiving sins without requiring some debt to be paid or some appeasement of God.
It is little wonder with all the many texts in the Bible which deal with God's forgiveness, how He blots out our sins and how He remembers them no more that they would arrive at such a conclusion. However today while the Christian community frequently speaks of God's forgiveness. It is equally insistent upon the concept of Penalty and debt. To most Christians, God forgives but it is because Christ paid the penalty. Yet in most Trinitarian circles they will acknowledge that Christ is indeed God, so that in a real sense God paid the penalty. Using the debtor analogy God paid his own debt. Rather like flogging Himself because His law was broken, so that the ones who broke the law do not have to be punished. Possibly a popular activity for monks in the middle ages but hardly a very sensible activity.
One person once wrote that Christ substitution is like the following illustration:
Imagine that you went to visit a friend who owned a park and it cost 5 dollars to gain admittance. The friend tells you that you don't have to pay that, he the owner of the park will pay for you. So he takes 5 dollars out of his pocket and then puts it in his other pocket.
Now most people if they encountered such an occurrence would probably think that the owner was trying to be funny, and if he was not trying to use humor most would question his intelligence. Of course the illustration would become even more absurd if a death penalty was involved. Looking at it rationally it would be more sensible to forgive the debt, no games, no transfer of debt would be needed.
What about the concept of transference of debt? At what point would the debt owed ever cease? Let us examine this logically. We owe a debt to God because we have all sinned. Jesus Christ then pays our debt to God as our substitute. So now we would owe a debt to Christ for paying our debt to God. But if Christ is also God then God has paid a debt to Himself, and we still owe him the debt because of the debt He paid for us. Confusing isn't it. Unfortunately most people only pay lip service to the idea that Jesus Christ and the Father are One. Their view of the substitutionary theory is that God is owed a debt, God must have that debt paid, Jesus pays the debt for us. Since Jesus is so loving we do not have to fear that He will ask us to repay what we owe Him, and this is the central problem with the substitutionary view of the atonement. The love of God is polluted by our own misrepresentation about God.
"In many of the popular sermons and hymns of the last two centuries Christ is set forth as mediator between an angry God and the condemned sinner, pleading with God for mercy, at the same time receiving the divine wrath into his own bosom and thus averting from the sinner the consequences of his sin." (The New Schaff-Herzog Religious Encyclopedia, vol. 7 page 270)
It is interesting to note that the New Schaff-Herzog Religious Encyclopedia written in the early part of the 1900's points us back a couple of hundred years to the time when the substitutional theory became widely accepted. How can such an understanding coincide with the words of Christ.
In that day you will ask in my name. I am not saying that I will ask the Father on your behalf. No, the Father himself loves you because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God. (John 16:26-27)
Remember the verse previously mentioned from the Living Bible paraphrase."For God sent Christ Jesus to take the punishment for our sins and to end all God's anger against us..." Yet when we read of Christ life it is not God who punishes Christ, it is human beings.
The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus. You handed him over to be killed, and you disowned him before Pilate, though he had decided to let him go. You disowned the Holy and Righteous One and asked that a murderer be released to you. You killed the author of life, but God raised him from the dead. We are witnesses of this. (Acts 3:13-15)
 
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woobadooba

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A forum is a place for discussion and debate, not a seminar.

Now then, instead of presenting a page by page dissertation, why not just take the matter into account verse by verse, and exegetically prove how your view is Biblical.

So far I have presented several passages from scripture to support the idea that Christ had to become our substitute, and thus die in the place of sinners to ultimately save them. It is now up to you to prove how those passages don't teach this concept.
 
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Adventtruth

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HI RC.

Does the RC stand for Roman Catholic?)

I know why I believe it...and I've read your link. The burden of proof is still on you becasue you said we where wrong. I was hoping you would support your position from the Holy pages of the bible. Everything woob is saying concerning you is starting to ring true. Kindly give us scripture please!!!


Adventtruth
 
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RC_NewProtestants

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woob wrote:
No you have not. I posted the text you gave and asked you to show where in that text anything about substitution was present. You could not or would not do it. I can't prove that something that is not even found in the text is not found in the text anymore then the fact that it is not there. That is why I asked you to show where your claim was true.

Advent wrote:
I have already showed the historical information which shows that the Substitutional theory is very recent. My article uses lots of biblical texts. You ask for scripture but when I ask for you to show your best scripture to support the substitution view you offer nothing. You have started with the assumption that your view is correct despite the historical information and despite your own ability to show a clearly substitutional text in the Bible.

I don't think either of you read the article. Atonement theory, any theory is not derived from only one text. However the Sub theory is based upon a number of presuppositions which really don't have Biblical support. As I mentioned earlier. Why is it God asks us to freely forgive yet He can't freely forgive? I say He can, the Bible says He can, He does not have to go through some kind of legal fiction to forgive and heal. The sub view is that He has to cook the books in order to forgive and heal. There is absolutely no New Testament verses which indicate that God poured out His wrath on Christ yet it is central to Sub theory. There is not one verse that says that Jesus paid the penalty or debt of sin yet it is central to sub theory. There are 5 verses in the New Testament that say that men caused Jesus' death yet according to Sub theory His death was a penalty of sin poured out by God.

Change does not come from Jesus substitution of Himself for me, it comes from the person's change in attitude toward God and allowing God to influence their lives. There is nothing in the atonement meant to affect God, it is all directed by God at man for the reason of reconciliation with God. Satisfaction and substitutionary theory have directed the atonement at God, completely opposite of reality as God has always been the one reaching out to man.
 
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woobadooba

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Did I merely give you one passage to look at in support of the view that I hold, or did I give you several passages?

See posts 3 and 6 (again). Examine them closely, especially post number 6.

The passages that I gave you represent a harmony of thought insofar as the substitutionary aspect of the atonement is concerned. It is now up to you to demonstrate that they do not harmonise in this way, or support the doctrine of substitution. To do this you would have to look at them as a whole as they relate to each other. To merely perceive them in bits and pieces, or to separate them from each other, would bring one to the point of missing the point altogether.

Now then, my challenge to you is to prove how those passages do not support the concept of substitution.

But you haven't done this. I've done my part. Now it is up to you to do yours.
 
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woobadooba

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RC_NewProtestants said:
I have already showed the historical information which shows that the Substitutional theory is very recent.

Your point here is moot because it assumes that knowledge which appears to be fairly new has no past precedent/cognizance.

You don't think it's possible to discover old things in a new way?

Didn't Jesus make it very clear that this is possible when He gave the sermon on the mount? You know, "You have heard...but I say to you..."


Excuse me, but you are the one who started this thread. Therefore, it is up to you to prove your point. And this is a forum, not a classroom. Expect a discussion, but don't expect us to read an article.

Now are you going to prove your point with scripture, or are you merely going to keep on telling us that we haven't proven ours? Keep in mind that you are the one who started this thread. Hence, the burden of proof is on you. Also keep in mind that passages were given to support the doctrine of substitution, but you have not addressed them as a whole.
 
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RC_NewProtestants

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Here are the verses, all the verse that woob has given which somehow he things indicate substitution:

You won't find scripture to support this view. Eisegetical notions, yes; but not sound exegesis. To the contrary, the scriptures support the idea that Christ is our substitute ( Heb. 2:14-18), and that no one could go to the Father except through Him (Jn. 14:6). Meaning, Gal. 2:20 must become a reality to everyone who is to be saved. See Acts 2:38 and Rom. 6. Moreover, Romans 5 makes this point very clear, as does also Jn. 3:16.

I have already dealt with Heb 2-14-18 and we have seen it says nothing of substitution. All texts NIV

John :6
5Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?" 6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7If you really knew me, you would know[b] my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." 8Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." 9Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

Again there is no substitution present here it merely is a statement that Jesus is the way the truth and the life. The way to God is through God and Jesus is God. Jesus is the revelation of God to man in its fullest form. There is no other way to get to God except by God, no one can come to God by some other means other then through the power and will of God.

Gal 2:20
1Fourteen years later I went up again to Jerusalem, this time with Barnabas. I took Titus along also. 2I went in response to a revelation and set before them the gospel that I preach among the Gentiles. But I did this privately to those who seemed to be leaders, for fear that I was running or had run my race in vain. 3Yet not even Titus, who was with me, was compelled to be circumcised, even though he was a Greek

No substitution here but it does indicate that people have to respond to the revelation of the gospel which is the good news that God loves us and offers to save us from the result of sin.

Acts 2 :38
38Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call."

Again no substitution, repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus who is God revealed in human form so that God will forgive your sins. And receive from God the Holy Spirit. Remember Jesus has already shown that He can and will forgive sins, and the only one who can forgive sin is God.

Now I have set forth the specifics offered and not one of them reveal substitution. Now a discourse on Romans 5-6 would take a lot of space and there is no reason to think that from the previous texts offered woob has anything specific to say about those chapters. But his final verse John 3:16 offers him nothing in support of substitution.

16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[f] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

So we see that God sent Jesus in human form to save the world. How is that accomplished? Through belief. Again not substitution.

So now you see why I did not deal with your verses earlier but only the one. They don’t show anything about substitution. True if that substitution is your presupposition then you can fit them into your theory. Just as I can fit them into the moral influence theory or as many early Christians could fit them into the Ransom theory. What you have to do is find the foundational texts which created your theory. But you did not want to do that and you don’t want to read an article which goes through the various presuppositions which create the substitutional theory.
 
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woobadooba

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You are neglecting to view these passages in light of the harmony of thought that I spoke of in a previous post. You are merely isolating them from each other, and this is why you are not seeing the picture that they paint when they are connected.

I'll tell you what, when I have the time to read your article I will take a closer look at it. Right now I am trying to go through all of the issues of buying a home, so I can't give it the attention that is needed right now. But I will take an honest look at it when I can.
 
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RC_NewProtestants

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woob wrote:
You are neglecting to view these passages in light of the harmony of thought that I spoke of in a previous post.

No I am not neglecting anything. A person can make almost anything fit into a presupposition. History has already shown us how these various atonement theories could be held by Christians. It fits because they demand by their presuppositions that it fit. So the question which we really have to wrestle with is are the presuppositions valid.
 
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woobadooba

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RC_NewProtestants said:
So we see that God sent Jesus in human form to save the world. How is that accomplished? Through belief. Again not substitution.

OK, but how then could we believe that God is "righteous and that he justifies the one who has faith in Jesus", and thus be saved without Jesus having died in our place to give meaning and purpose to such belief, as it were?
 
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