How can Christians better understand what a non-theist believes?

If I have one struggle as a non-struggle as a non-Christian, it is how can I help Christians better understand why I don't believe a god exists and what it is I do believe. I feel as if Christians don't completely understand what an atheist is. It's not a hatred or rejection of a god; It's simply to not hold the belief that a god exists - nothing more, nothing less.

I invite others to ask any questions.

Munising said:

If I have one struggle as a non-struggle as a non-Christian, it is how can I help Christians better understand why I don't believe a god exists and what it is I do believe. I feel as if Christians don't completely understand what an atheist is. It's not a hatred or rejection of a god; It's simply to not hold the belief that a god exists - nothing more, nothing less.

I invite others to ask any questions.

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Why do you believe it's necessary for Christians to understand it? Is it because you simply want Christians to leave you alone, or do you have a desire for Christians to understand your atheism?

RDKirk said:

Why do you believe it's necessary for Christians to understand it? Is it because you simply want Christians to leave you alone, or do you have a desire for Christians to understand your atheism?

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I think it is best that we all get along and be in full acceptance of each others viewpoints. One of the first steps to move in that direction is for each side to fully understand the position of the other side. Since many Christians I've encountered don't seem to understand what atheism is (e.g. they mistakenly think atheists hate God), I am offering to help people such as yourself understand.

Munising said:

I think it is best that we all get along and be in full acceptance of each others viewpoints. One of the first steps to move in that direction is for each side to fully understand the position of the other side. Since many Christians I've encountered don't seem to understand what atheism is (e.g. they mistakenly think atheists hate God), I am offering to help people such as yourself understand.

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Well, I've been around the world a couple of times, and studied cultures that remain after years of study still totally alien to my mind. I acknowledge they exist, but don't understand them, and certainly not "fully understand" them. I have learned that I can't understand everyone...or really, hardly anyone. I can only acknowledge the differences.

Sometimes even with my wife of 27 years I have to stop and realize, "Hmm, we both witnessed the same event, but she had a totally different idea in her mind about it."

Never underestimate the difficulty of transferring a concept intact from one human mind to another.

Now, I have spoken to some atheists who themselves say they "hate God." My next door neighbor is one, and he tells me his specific reason for hating God is that God allowed his daughter to be rendered a quadriplegic by a drunk driver. He calls himself an atheist and says he hates God. I've pointed out that there is a basic contradiction there, but the contradiction doesn't bother him.

RDKirk said:

Well, I've been around the world a couple of times, and studied cultures that remain after years of study still totally alien to my mind. I acknowledge they exist, but don't understand them, and certainly not "fully understand" them. I have learned that I can't understand everyone...or really, hardly anyone. I can only acknowledge the differences.

Sometimes even with my wife of 27 years I have to stop and realize, "Hmm, we both witnessed the same event, but she had a totally different idea in her mind about it."

Never underestimate the difficulty of transferring a concept intact from one human mind to another.

Now, I have spoken to some atheists who themselves say they "hate God."

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Perhaps they are non-believers who are actually frustrated with the fact such a large body of people persistently posits an invisible & undetectable being which never manifests itself in reality to exist - and that they have a difficult time articulating their feelings.

This would not mean they hate God, as they don't hate or like things they don't believe to exist.

Now if you were to ask me if I hate Spiderman (the character, not the show), I would not be able to definitively say yes or no. But if you asked me if I hate the concept of Spiderman, then I could certainly give you a yes or no.

My next door neighbor is one, and he tells me his specific reason for hating God is that God allowed his daughter to be rendered a quadriplegic by a drunk driver. He calls himself an atheist and says he hates God. I've pointed out that there is a basic contradiction there, but the contradiction doesn't bother him.

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I suggest you have your neighbor read Atheism - Iron Chariots Wiki

Munising said:

I think it is best that we all get along and be in full acceptance of each others viewpoints. One of the first steps to move in that direction is for each side to fully understand the position of the other side.

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I suggest a re-direct:

respect.

It is much more achievable than the grandiose thing you propose.

I hope other posters will accord me some leeway here, as some definitions and concepts have come up, some I think are outside the realm of non-theists.

Regarding some of these labels:

Atheist--strictly speaking, someone who doesn't believe in the existence of God, or put another way: someone who believes God doesn't exist. To be diplomatic to both sides of the conversation.

Agnostic--someone skeptical about the existence of God or gods; I've seen many agnostics claim that if enough evidence became apparent to them, they would be receptive to believing the existence of God. Not a theist.

I'm not too sure about middle ground types, if there are any.

Hostile Theists:

Dystheist--Believes that God exists. However, this type of theist does not believe that God is wholly, entirely good, and may contemplate the possibility that God might be evil.

Maltheist--Again, definitely believes God exists. However, this person believes that God is without question bad or evil, is actually out to get us.

Misotheist--Another theist, again definitely believing God exists. And regardless of if God is actually good or bad, worthwhile or boring, actually hates God to some degree; whether a passive hatred, or a desire to cause God harm despite how impossible this might be to effect.

The person RDKirk refers to, although they consider themselves an atheist, they are labelling themselves imprecisely as a generic term that is roughly opposed to God. It sounds like that neighbor believes God exists, and it sounds like they are doubtful that God is good, so the neighbor qualifies at least as a Dystheist; further, that person says they hate God, which makes him a Misotheist. So he's both a Dystheist and a Misotheist...but as RDKirk says, he's not too worried about the precise terminology.

It's important to understand who is a theist and a non-theist. There are two distinct challenges there; for a non-theist, if they are looking, they want or need evidence that God exists. If we are talking about, say, someone who was once a Christian, and is now a full-blown non-theist, then they need proof God exists and they need proof that this God is actually good as well. One atheist I talked to said that he considered hatred of God or the view that God wasn't good and possibly evil, as a transitional phase toward Agnosticism and Atheism; and some atheists couldn't fathom getting "stuck" in the hating God phase. Some atheists ask a question on here, and then they have to remind Christian responders that they don't hate God anymore because it makes more sense to them that God doesn't exist; consequently they hatred they feel is impractical because it would be tantamount to hating a character in a fictional novel as if that character was real.

Anyway, if this intrusion is of no help, then my apologies to other posters and the moderators; feel free to carry on and ignore it. All the best to everyone.

Munising said:

If I have one struggle as a non-struggle as a non-Christian, it is how can I help Christians better understand why I don't believe a god exists and what it is I do believe. I feel as if Christians don't completely understand what an atheist is. It's not a hatred or rejection of a god; It's simply to not hold the belief that a god exists - nothing more, nothing less.

I invite others to ask any questions.

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I'm attempting to figure out what's so difficult about the concept of atheism that people don't understand the definition. Honestly though, I've met professed atheists who also don't understand what atheism is, so you shouldn't be surprised if some Christians you've met don't understand it. Most people are simply ignorant- and that has nothing to do with intelligence. I suppose I should stop being surprised by what all people don't know.

The problem we have here is that a Christian can understand what you believe, but you can't understand what a Christian believes, or at least that he believes it.

I comprehend the definition of many things without agreeing with them, as do you. Pedophelia, beastiality, you know what they are, but that does not mean you can even stomach the thought of those horrendous activities.

You want us to believe what you believe, and we want you to believe what we believe. You can't persuade me to not believe that God exists, and no matter how many documentations of miracles I show you, present or historical, you will always say it was some kind of a scietific phenomenon.

So, why are you here? Not meant to be a deep question about life; why are you on a religious forum trying to persuade it to not be religious? Are you looking for answers? Do you want to know more about Christians to learn or to laugh?

RCF

Don't forget there are plenty of Christians who once were atheists.

I understand where the OP is coming from... I've had friends who said they hated atheists, without yet knowing I was one. I didn't question them on it, but I presume there was more to it than "a lack of belief in a god". My father, upon learning that my cousin was an atheist, burst into a furious rant about how stupid she was. Certainly, there are a lot of misconceptions abound, as with any group of people... It really is simple though: a lack of belief in any gods.

Munising said:

If I have one struggle as a non-struggle as a non-Christian, it is how can I help Christians better understand why I don't believe a god exists and what it is I do believe. I feel as if Christians don't completely understand what an atheist is. It's not a hatred or rejection of a god; It's simply to not hold the belief that a god exists - nothing more, nothing less.

I invite others to ask any questions.

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There are as many reasons for rejecting or not believing God as there are atheists.

The bottom line is that it is relatively easy for most Christians to understand why athiests don't believe. Belief in God is not based in certainty, but is based in faith. It may be a reasoned and totally reasonable faith, it may be a leap of faith as we stand on the edge of that unfathomable mystery which is life, it may even be a blind faith based in total desperation that there is something to hope for even as your life is falling apart at the seams, but it is always, always faith.

No faith, no belief. It is really that simple.

As a child I was taught not to use the word atheist, or to call other children atheists, as it was a bad word. It was essentially a synonym for evil, heretic, cruel, etc. I didn't know what it really meant, but just taught that an atheist was something evil.

JGG said:

As a child I was taught not to use the word atheist, or to call other children atheists, as it was a bad word. It was essentially a synonym for evil, heretic, cruel, etc. I didn't know what it really meant, but just taught that an atheist was something evil.

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That's really odd. Did your family have conversations about words you weren't allowed to say, and atheist was in the list, or something?

Munsing see this verse in the bible:

Matthew 7

"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. <- it is written in the bible many choose to reject it.

Matthew 10
12As you enter the home, give it your greeting. 13If the home is deserving, let your peace rest on it; if it is not, let your peace return to you. 14If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet.

Both of these verses say there are people around us that reject christ and Christians and in the case of Matthew 7 above it means they reject until death.

That means people are not going to believe no matter what you say to them so respecting their choice to reject christ is ok to do if that is their decision.

I have no problem with atheists if they show my faith respect. That is the key to it all showing respect for personal choices in others that do not match your own.

If I have one struggle as a non-struggle as a non-Christian, it is how can I help Christians better understand why I don't believe a god exists and what it is I do believe. I feel as if Christians don't completely understand what an atheist is. It's not a hatred or rejection of a god; It's simply to not hold the belief that a god exists - nothing more, nothing less.

I invite others to ask any questions.

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First off, this isn't an "Ask the Atheist" or "Understanding Atheism" forum.

Second, until recently the term "atheist" meant one who believed God did not exist. Atheism traditionally has asserted a very particular viewpoint on the matter of God's existence. When atheists were challenged to prove God did not exist they would respond that they weren't obliged to prove a negative, that they didn't have to prove God didn't exist. Of course, this isn't actually true. Professional philosophers quite regularly offer arguments to prove negatives. So, atheists in the last few years, realizing that they could not well defend the assertion that God does not exist, have retreated to redefining what the term "atheism" means. Again, the intent seems to be to avoid having to offer any defense of atheism.

The problem with the new definition of atheism is that it gives the impression that nothing results from a non-belief in God, that such a belief is completely philosophically neutral. This is quite false. In fact, several things tumble out of an atheist's "failing to have a belief in God":

1. There are no transcendent moral values or duties.
2. There is no ultimate accountability.
3. There is no knowing what is really good and really evil.
4. There is no explanation for the real, ontological worth and dignity of human beings, so it's quite possible that human beings don't have any special worth or dignity.

All of these beliefs have consequences and need therefore to be defended by the atheists who espouse them (whether unwittingly or not).

Selah.

How can you be sure that there is no God? Do you know the whole universe and are you all-knowing? If not, you cannot be sure that God doesn't exist. And if you can't be sure, well then you're in fact an agnostic.

seashale76 said:

That's really odd. Did your family have conversations about words you weren't allowed to say, and atheist was in the list, or something?

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I don't recall the specifics, but it's likely that as a child I, or a young friend, used the word in some fashion, not really knowing what it meant, was disciplined for it, and warned not to use it again. I just know that it was regarded as an insult. Which is no surprise, that's where the word originated.

aiki said:

First off, this isn't an "Ask the Atheist" or "Understanding Atheism" forum.

Second, until recently the term "atheist" meant one who believed God did not exist. Atheism traditionally has asserted a very particular viewpoint on the matter of God's existence. When atheists were challenged to prove God did not exist they would respond that they weren't obliged to prove a negative, that they didn't have to prove God didn't exist. Of course, this isn't actually true. Professional philosophers quite regularly offer arguments to prove negatives. So, atheists in the last few years, realizing that they could not well defend the assertion that God does not exist, have retreated to redefining what the term "atheism" means. Again, the intent seems to be to avoid having to offer any defense of atheism.

The problem with the new definition of atheism is that it gives the impression that nothing results from a non-belief in God, that such a belief is completely philosophically neutral. This is quite false. In fact, several things tumble out of an atheist's "failing to have a belief in God":

1. There are no transcendent moral values or duties.
2. There is no ultimate accountability.
3. There is no knowing what is really good and really evil.
4. There is no explanation for the real, ontological worth and dignity of human beings, so it's quite possible that human beings don't have any special worth or dignity.

All of these beliefs have consequences and need therefore to be defended by the atheists who espouse them (whether unwittingly or not).

Selah.

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Just wanted to point out that philosophers using arguments to prove negatives isn't the same as an atheist proving the non-existence of God. Philosophy and logic can be used to prove that it is impossible for something to exist, or that something is likely to not exist, but just as it's impossible to prove yetis don't exist, so too with God.

Also, with regard to your number-points:

2. I am ultimately accountable to myself. That is enough for me, enough for my family, and enough for my (Christian) friends. I'm not sure how this is derogatory or a "negative".

3. So?

4. Is such an explanation possible? And why can't the answer be "no"?

To answer someone: The origins of atheist was as a pejorative and meant one whose faith in God was weak, and was meant to imply heresy. It seems the word atheist predates atheism. Or so I read.