I agree with your assessment of them. While the Duggars were being really negligent and need to quit the bill Gotherd stuff (they were handling the situation the way the booklets said), most of the people mad at them already hated them for being fundamentalists or something.By LINK
If it isn't a legal requirement, is it unethical for a parent to discipline the child and deal with the situation using other means without reporting drug use to the state?
Has your son, in his youth, ever done anything technically illegal that you could have turned him in to the police for?
Good questions Link!
If it isn't a legal requirement, is it unethical for a parent to discipline the child and deal with the situation using other means without reporting drug use to the state?
In the Duggars case it is unethical for Mr. Jim_Bob to not involve the state. Why? Because Jim-Bob is heavily involved in the state’s involvement in private lives. “From 1999 to 2002, Duggar served in the Arkansas House of Representatives for the sixth district, which included part of northern Washington County, Arkansas, Duggar was vice chair of the House Corrections and Criminal Law Subcommittee…” Jim-Bob has been involved in a lot of political organizations and unsuccessfully ran for senate in 2002. The Family Research Council that he is a member of is very active in trying to get the state to pass laws about families and sexual issues.
With Mr. Duggar’s heavy involvement with the state and the state’s laws regarding families, it word be unethical for him to take the position that in his case, with a son that has molested, to exclude the state!
Has your son, in his youth, ever done anything technically illegal that you could have turned him in to the police for?
Yes my son did commit an illegal activity (not molestation) and I did not turn him in. However on several other occasions I did turn him in.
I am very skeptical of parents that claim that they would always turn their minor child in for committing an illegal act or that they would never try to take care of the issue within the family and some outside help. People say that they would always report the child and I say talk is cheap and when it gets down to your minor child I think many parents would fail to report the child to the police. Of course it depends a lot on the illegal crime does it not?
I think a lot of people are influenced and outraged by the fact that Mr. Jim-Bob Duggar is so active in laws against sexual issues yet he did not take actions against his son according to his own statement in his quest for the senate in 2002. Repeated below is what Mr. Dugger said
Jim-Bob Duggar said: Rape and incest represent heinous crimes and as such should be treated as capital crimes.
You do not asses capital punishment for a minor of 14 years old in the USA. Although Jim-Bob was probably referring to adults in his statement above, his recent news about his son will really infuriate many people. He did turn his son into a police officer, got him counseling, and sent him to a work camp to help build homes but that is miles away from capital punishment.
With Jim-Bob’s statement above and his actions regarding his son’s molestation he deserves to not only be called out on that but also to expect the disgust that he is getting from some people.
However, I think some of the other disgust and berating of the Duggar parents is because the Duggars have a different way of living their life based upon their interpretation of the Bible. Most of that berating is based on the berater’s personal opinions and most are not because the Duggers are violating scriptures.
In the Duggars case it is unethical for Mr. Jim_Bob to not involve the state. Why? Because Jim-Bob is heavily involved in the state’s involvement in private lives. “From 1999 to 2002, Duggar served in the Arkansas House of Representatives for the sixth district, which included part of northern Washington County, Arkansas, Duggar was vice chair of the House Corrections and Criminal Law Subcommittee…” Jim-Bob has been involved in a lot of political organizations and unsuccessfully ran for senate in 2002.
The Family Research Council that he is a member of is very active in trying to get the state to pass laws about families and sexual issues.
With Mr. Duggar’s heavy involvement with the state and the state’s laws regarding families, it word be unethical for him to take the position that in his case, with a son that has molested, to exclude the state!
I am very skeptical of parents that claim that they would always turn their minor child in for committing an illegal act or that they would never try to take care of the issue within the family and some outside help. People say that they would always report the child and I say talk is cheap and when it gets down to your minor child I think many parents would fail to report the child to the police. Of course it depends a lot on the illegal crime does it not?
Jim-Bob Duggar said: Rape and incest represent heinous crimes and as such should be treated as capital crimes.
You do not asses capital punishment for a minor of 14 years old in the USA. Although Jim-Bob was probably referring to adults in his statement above, his recent news about his son will really infuriate many people. He did turn his son into a police officer, got him counseling, and sent him to a work camp to help build homes but that is miles away from capital punishment.
However, I think some of the other disgust and berating of the Duggar parents is because the Duggars have a different way of living their life based upon their interpretation of the Bible. Most of that berating is based on the berater’s personal opinions and most are not because the Duggers are violating scriptures.
Can't answer that since I have no knowledge of who he was. (and apparengly neither did my wife's relative)By never saw the guy again do you mean NO ONE ever saw the guy again?
I'm surprised no one addressed the bolded bit.To Hetta and anyone else around, yes child molestation is awful, and Josh really ought to be prosecuted, IMo, but I think it would be up to the victims to press charges. But I think our society treats it like this unforgivable sin--that and terrorism. I think if you commit these crimes you ought to be punished, but others also ought to,forgive you as well. Secular society, Imo, doesn't seem to be big on forgiving, but that's just not how things should be.
I think we really could have seen that if Josh had served time or whatever prior to the show starting and then they could have used him as an example of God's forgiveness, and how a truly Christian family still has to love and forgive its members regardless of what they do, no matter how painful it is, and no matter how long it takes.
I,don't think the problem is with the parents as much as it is with Josh and the Bill Gotherd regulations they follow. If they had just done things normally after the first incident, then maybe this wouldn't have ended so badly for the whole family. I'm very disappointed that it gives people an opportunity to say, "See, Christians are hypocrites/child molestors!" As well. I know plenty of homeschoolers, and as far as I know none of them are brainwashed, follow Bill Gotherd, or had molestation issues in their family.
Agreed. Children are not just adults in smaller bodies.I'm surprised no one addressed the bolded bit.
No. It should not be up to minors to press charges. There are good reasons why the state prosecutes on behalf of minors. Often, the rapist/molester has a strong psychological control over their victim. So a traumatized 8 year old should not be deciding if charges should be filed.
It is difficult enough to protect children as it is. Leaving it up to them to press charges would make it even more difficult.
So you're saying that they murdered the man?You do not know what the parents did. (not in totality)
A relative of my wife was on her way to school (late 1960s) with her 2 brothers when an adult male showed up and threw money in the bushes and told the brothers to go get it. (they did) At which point he tried to rape the girl. A woman who was at work across the street and knew the family saw what happened and immediatly called her mother who came in time to stop the attempted rape. No police. The girl and her brothers never appeared in court or had to fill out statements. They never saw the guy again.
Hence is southern justice.
I'm not afraid of being judged on this. I've never molested children. And it has nothing to do with feelings and guesswork - it's documented. Go and look up some reports for goodness sake.Hetta said,
Did God supernaturally reveal to you that the Duggars deliberately circumvented the law? The dad got a police officer involved. How would you know, beyond your feelings and guesswork that Jim Bob did something to circumvent justice.
I believe this is a good time to apply the 'judge not' verse.
A teen taking a car or a nickel is NOT incest. And it wasn't just Duggar children involved, it was the child of another family. Did they have the right to make that decision for her?There are a lot of situations where a parent is not required to report a crime. If your 16-year-old takes your car without permission, it's your choice whether or not to report that as a theft to the police. Some parents may choose to do so in some cases. Some would not, and would handle it themselves. If your 5-year-old steals a nickel from you, knowing full well that it was wrong, I suppose you could try to report that to the police, too. But if you aren't legally required to, you probably wouldn't do that. Most parents would report it if there were a legal requirement.
Drinking and drugs are not molestation of small children.Lots of parents have kids that do things that are illegal, and catch them. Is a parent ethically required to report busting his child for underage drinking or illegal marijuana use? If it isn't a legal requirement, is it unethical for a parent to discipline the child and deal with the situation using other means without reporting drug use to the state?
My eldest adult kid told us years later that he had used drugs. Did I turn him in 5 years later? Ah, no. But then again, he didn't molest his little sisters.Has your son, in his youth, ever done anything technically illegal that you could have turned him in to the police for?
You're ignoring the scriptures that I quoted. How interesting.The Duggars apparently aren't a big fan of the idea of the state owning their children. I haven't heard them say anything about it, but a lot of Christian homeschool families don't believe the state should be raising their kids. And they'd prefer to discipline them in the home or through their church in some cases. If there is no legal requirement for them to report, you can't accuse them of breaking the law.
And can you really say that what a state determines to do with children reported for molestation does is automatically 'justice'? If that is the case, why doesn't it vary from state to state. Parents can also mete out justice. We don't know what all Josh Duggar faced as a result of this, besides going to stay elsewhere for a while. The kids got counseling. . But you shouldn't be accusing someone of breaking the law if you don't know that he did. And you shouldn't malign someone's character without evidence, either.
I'm not afraid of being judged on this. I've never molested children.
And it has nothing to do with feelings and guesswork - it's documented. Go and look up some reports for goodness sake.
A teen taking a car or a nickel is NOT incest. And it wasn't just Duggar children involved, it was the child of another family. Did they have the right to make that decision for her?
You're ignoring the scriptures that I quoted. How interesting.
I doubt it; but whatever they did, he was not seen by that family again.So you're saying that they murdered the man?
How nice for them.I doubt it; but whatever they did, he was not seen by that family again.
So you say, but you continue to hint that he was 'disposed of'.I doubt it; but whatever they did, he was not seen by that family again.
I don't believe in mob law or the lynch mob, and to murder a man is simply murder - it's nothing to be proud of or to suggest is appropriate. I don't see myself calling for Josh Duggar to be put to death - although his own father recommended the death penalty for incest. I don't support or agree with the death penalty in any shape or form, and certainly not some neighborhood thugs putting a man to death without trial, or without the opportunity to repent and ask for forgiveness. SMH.Does kinda remind one of the old Jerry Reed song:
Well I wonder where the Louisana Sherrif went to.
You can sure get lost in the Louisana bayou ....
I'm not at all afraid of being judged.I'm not talking about molesting children. I'm talking about judging some by imagining what their motivation MUST be, based on your own thoughts and opinions, and declaring that as fact. You should be afraid of being judged for bearing false witness if your guess happens to be wrong. And since the Duggars didn't have the show when this happened, it doesn't make sense that the show would have had anything to do with their motivation.
You think they'd admit it?Show me where the Duggars documented a statement that they intentionally circumvented the law for the sake of a TV show that had not been invented yet.
Again, go and read the documentation. They had a tame police officer who did what they asked him to do.None of us know if the victims were consulted on this. They could have been. But parents have to make these decisions. I don't know if, how, and when they broke the news to the other child's parents. Her parents could have pressed charges. The police WERE involved. I don't see why you are blaming Jim-Bob or his wife for the police not taking it forward.
Then why don't we just bypass the police for everything? If one of my kids breaks the law, I'll just handle it myself, shall I? If they steal, if they hurt someone, if they kill someone - this is between the kid and me, and I can correct him or her. What an amazing get out for kids.If parents believe they can handle the situation better than the state, then it makes sense that they would try to handle it themselves, especially if parents aren't legally required to report. A policeman may be legally required to report to another agency. I don't know 2002 or 2003 Arkansas law on the matter.
Under the Arkansas statute, certain individuals (including child care workers, coroners, dentists and dental hygienists, domestic abuse advocates or domestic violence shelter employees or volunteers, employees or volunteers at a reproductive health center, employees of the Department of Human Services, foster parents, judges, law enforcement officials, medical professionals and health care personnel, school officials including in institutions of higher education and teachers, school counselors, social workers, court appointed advocates or probation/intake officers, clergy, attorneys, and others) [bold]are mandated by law[/bold] to immediately notify the Child Abuse Hotline, operated by the Department of Human Services, if he or she reasonably suspects a child has been subject to maltreatment, observes a child being subject to conditions or circumstances that will result in maltreatment or suspects that a child died as a result of maltreatment.
Post # 187 - It doesn't matter what Christians think about judges, Romans 13: 1-7 and 1 Peter 2:13-17 spell out specifically that Christians must be subject to the authorities. There's no getting around that.I am not intentionally ignoring anything. I've checked a couple of pages back to see what you were referring to. Could you give me a page number on the thread, a verse references, or paraphrase of the verses?
Not sure how you can "continue" something before the fact.So you say, but you continue to hint that he was 'disposed of'.
I don't believe in mob law or the lynch mob, and to murder a man is simply murder - it's nothing to be proud of or to suggest is appropriate. I don't see myself calling for Josh Duggar to be put to death - although his own father recommended the death penalty for incest. I don't support or agree with the death penalty in any shape or form, and certainly not some neighborhood thugs putting a man to death without trial, or without the opportunity to repent and ask for forgiveness. SMH.
Well that's part of the Christians not being under the law any longer, and there is plenty more in the Bible that speaks against killing. The death penalty is barbaric. The scripture you quote above, I do not see as supporting the human death penalty. I perceive it as a God-given punishment, and none of us are God.Not sure how you can "continue" something before the fact.
I have wondered about it, but I never brought it up and now all the people who would know are dead.
I do believe in the death penalty since it is commanded in the OT and at least supported in the NT.
Romans 13:4 for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil.
I also do not support mob rule or vigilante justice. But I do recognize that it was not uncommon in the rural south in the early and mid 20th century.
How old are the victims now? This was about a decade ago, after all. Now that they're older they probably know exactly what happened to them and why it was wrong, even if ol' Jim Bob tries to tell them everything has been settled. Didn't they find out about this thing when one of the girls hid a note and smuggled it to Oprah's crew or whatever? So whoever she was she must have known exactly what had happened. In a few years the victims will be adults and can press charges independently. I guess they could do it now, too, but I figured that the Duggar parents could intervene somehow as long as the victims are legally minors. I'm not quite sure how all that works, though, seeing as how I've never had to press charges against anyone. In this case I figured it was Jim Bob that was controlling the victims more so than Josh, who to me just seems to be ashamed at having ben caught.I'm surprised no one addressed the bolded bit.
No. It should not be up to minors to press charges. There are good reasons why the state prosecutes on behalf of minors. Often, the rapist/molester has a strong psychological control over their victim. So a traumatized 8 year old should not be deciding if charges should be filed.
It is difficult enough to protect children as it is. Leaving it up to them to press charges would make it even more difficult.
I'm not at all afraid of being judged.
Again, go and read the documentation. They had a tame police officer who did what they asked him to do.
Then why don't we just bypass the police for everything? If one of my kids breaks the law, I'll just handle it myself, shall I? If they steal, if they hurt someone, if they kill someone - this is between the kid and me, and I can correct him or her. What an amazing get out for kids.
And yes, they are required to report, as per this page. http://www.littleleague.org/learn/p...ingChildAbuse/ReportingChildAbuseArkansas.htm
Post # 187 - It doesn't matter what Christians think about judges, Romans 13: 1-7 and 1 Peter 2:13-17 spell out specifically that Christians must be subject to the authorities. There's no getting around that.
Given that you can see above that parents and law enforcement officials are mandated to report child abuse, then you can also see that these scriptures were ignored by these parents and the law officials. If you think that molestation isn't "maltreatment" then I have nothing else to say to you.
I don't know everything about the Duggars at the time, but I don't think they fit into any of the mandatory reporting categories listed.
Where does the Bible teach that this crime must be taken to the judges as opposed to being handled by the parents?
You haven't show any evidence that the Duggar's were legally required to report. Being subject doesn't mean following laws that don't exist. I Corinthians 6 teaches against taking cases against one another before unbelievers rather than before the saints.
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