How are we saved?

[Droobie]

Are we saved through our faith in what Jesus did for us? Or do we need works? Some may quote in James 2:17 "Faith without works is dead". So do we need to do anything or not?

 

[InspectorVol]

The bible say you are saved by grace through faith lest any man should boast. Then it says Faith without works is dead.
What this means to me is that even though works do not save you they help you maintain your christian standing so to speak. Doing good works maintains your faith, keeps you built up. So indirectly they have a bearing on your standing with God. Oh, you will also be judged by your works as well.
Analogy: Jesus came and done the works that God had sent him to do and the people believed and Christianity was born. If he had not done the works that God sent him to do what would have happened?

 

[JohnR7]

>>"Faith without works is dead". So do we need to do anything or not?

Our works do not save us, it is the work of God in us that saves us. If God is not doing a work in and though us, then we are not saved.

Our works are filthy rags. Have you ever tried to clean with a filthy rag? All it does is push the dirt around and make even a bigger mess.

When the Holy Spirit of God is done doing a work in us, than there will be no smudges, no streak. We will be without spot, blemish or wrinkle. We are His workmanship.

Ephes. 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

It is the Holy Spirit of God in us that does the good works. We are to do the works that Jesus did. He went about teaching, preaching, helping all He could help, healing and casting out demons.

If you want to help people come to a saving knowledge of the truth, your going to have to help them overcome the work of the enemy and the demons that are out to destroy them. First we get the victory in our lives, then we go out and help others to live the life of a overcomer. Thanks, JohnR7

 

[JohnR7]

>>The bible say you are saved by grace through faith lest any man should boast.

A lot of people do not realize how much power there is in the grace of God. An atomic bomb can only destroy, but the resurrection power of God can bring it all back together again and raise our body from the dead to give us everlasting life. Of course most of us here will never see or taste death. We will gain the victory over death, and Jesus will come for us to translate us. Thanks, JohnR7

Ephes. 1:9-10 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: [10] That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

 

[Ben johnson]

Excellent posts here! How are we saved? The Bible is clear---by believing in Jesus Christ. But what does that mean?

James 2:19 says, "even DEMONS believe, and SHUDDER." Will "saying the SINNER'S PRAYER" confer salvation? No.

John records that "salvation is by BELIEF" (Jn3:16-21). But then Jesus throws out some clear conditions---each worded as, "Unless ________, you won't go to Heaven"!

"Unless you are turned and humbled as one of these children, you shall not enter the kingdom of Heaven." Matt18:3

"Unless you repent, you will perish!" Luke13:3

"Not everyone who says to Me 'Lord, Lord', wil enter the kingdom of Heaven, but he who does the will of My Father..." Matt7:21

"Truly I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." John3:3

Turns out, that the LAST one is the foundation on which all the others reside!

Born again.

You all have heard it, many times, but what does it mean?

It means believing in Jesus.

Well, NO, it means far more than that!

The terms "belief" and "faith (to salvation)" are interchangeable. As Jesus admonished, it's only a certain KIND of belief that is SAVED! Are you worried? You needn't be...

Salvation, succinctly, in really ONE WORD, is fellowship---fellowship with Jesus and God! Jn1:3,6 It IS by faith, but it's far deeper than that[/b]. "Born Again", means "receiving Christ"---belief that surrenders our will to Him completely, without reservation.

IOW, LORD!

Jesus physically indwells our hearts, as does the Holy Spirit. "I am crucified with Christ, it is no longer I who live but Christ who lives in me; and the life I now live in the flesh, I live by faith in the One who loved me and delivered Himself up for me." Gal2:20

LORD? Lord, and master. HOW? By faith. FAITH FROM GOD? Doesn't seem to be the Gospel. Paul says, "faith (to salvation) comes from hearing the Word of God." Not "faith comes from God", but "faith comes from hearing". Paul further says, "If you confess Jesus as Lord, and believe God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved. For with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the heart he confesses, resulting in salvation."

And that's really what salvation really is. Our old "sin-nature" dies, Jesus enters our hearts and makes us alive---by our invitation, through our faith. Jesus declares He calls EVERYONE---and those who BELIEVE are saved! But those who love darkness, are condemned already.

"For by grace have you been saved through faith, and that (that salvation) is not of yourselves, it (that salvation) is the gift of God; (that salvation is) not as a result of works lest anyone boast." Eph2:8-9

"For you were chosen from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth!" 2Thess2:13

It's really that simple---fellowship with Christ, abiding in Him! (1Jn4:15-16) And Him IN YOU! Christ-in-you, is the REASON you do good works. CONSEQUENTIAL to His presence! "THerefore work out your salvation with fear and trembling; for it is GOD at work in you, both to will and to work according to His good purpose." Philip2:12-13

If you believe in "salvation by works" (as ALL of the world's religions do), then you deny Christ's gospel. If you believe in "salvation by faith, works AND sacraments", you deny Christ's gospel.

If you understand "salvation is RECEIVING CHRIST" (Jn1:12), then you are SAVED! Be you Baptist, Presbyterian, Methodist, Charismatic, Catholic, IT DOESN'T MATTER!

Each of us, chosen by Him through our own faith. As Jesus detailed with a parable in Matt22:2-14, the King calls EVERYONE, and those who RECEIVED the invitation AND the cloak of righteousness, became the chosen! Many are called, few chosen---we the few, received the invitation, and became the chosen.

Simple and clear---salvation by grace, through faith---rebirth, our old sin-man (or woman) dies, we are "new creations", Jesus abiding in us, we abiding in Christ---filled with the Holy Spirit. Doing good works because that is the only thing our new regenerated hearts CAN do!

 

[FluviusNeckar]

All agree that faith in God is necessary to salvation. Not all agree with the New Testament writers that we will receive in the afterlife what we have done here in this world. These writers rejected the Gnostic notion that what we do in the flesh is irrelevant to salvation, i.e., let's sin so that grace may abound. If we receive in the afterlife what we have done here, then the Protestant position, sola fede, fails---we may not, as Christians, sin so that grace may abound to us. More to the point, we will be clothed with our good works in Heaven. (John's words in Revelation, not mine.)

Paul spent his life freeing Christians from salvation by works of the law of Moses. Most think he was trying to save us from the law of good works. He wasn't. Paul wrote "God will render to each one according to his deeds, eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality. Romans 2: 6 & 7.

If it were as simple as most preachers make it, then we wouldn't need to seek immortality by patient continuance in doing good. When Protestant theology overcomes its hatred of Catholicism, it will be much more useful to the Lord in saving people and when Catholic theology overcomes its hatred of Judaism, it will be more useful to the Lord in unifying Christians.

 

[Julie]

Fellowship is NOT salvation.

 

[Ben johnson]

These writers rejected the Gnostic notion that what we do in the flesh is irrelevant to salvation, i.e., let's sin so that grace may abound.

"Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? May it never be! How shall we who have DIED to sin still live IN it? We are buried through death (old sinful-nature DEAD), and raised new creations in Christ! Our old self crucifed with Him, that our sinful body be done away with, no longer SLAVES to sin. Even so, consider yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. Therefore, do not let sin reign in your mortal body that you should obey its lusts, do not present your body's members to sin as instruments of unrighteousnes, but present them to God as those alive from the dead, as instruments of righteousness."

Paul wrote "God will render to each one according to his deeds, eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality. Romans 2: 6 & 7.

Very good. And yet, none of them (including Paul, and John {Rev20:13}) believed that "good deeds save" or "evil deeds condemn"; rather, it is as Jesus said, "you will know them by their fruits (deeds)---no good tree produces bad fruit, no bad tree produces good". So then "judged acccording to DEEDS", means that it unveils their HEART, which is saved or condemned...

If it were as simple as most preachers make it, then we wouldn't need to seek immortality by patient continuance in doing good. When Protestant theology overcomes its hatred of Catholicism, it will be much more useful to the Lord in saving people and when Catholic theology overcomes its hatred of Judaism, it will be more useful to the Lord in unifying Christians.

It IS simple; but too often we stop short of TELLING the simplicity. Salvation is the constant communion between Creator and created. As Paul eloquently said in Gal2:20, "I have been crucified with Christ, it is no longer I who live but CHRIST WHO LIVES IN ME; and the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the One who loved me, and delivered Himself up for me."

BTW, I do not believe Protestants hate anyone, least of all Catholics. Myself, I believe that Catholics who understand salvation as "Christ-IN-you", surrendered and submitted to Him ("Lord and Master"), the DEEDS flowing naturally (and unavoidably) from the CHRIST-FILLED-HEART, I regard THOSE CATHOLICS as my saved brothers and sisters in Christ!

Fellowship is NOT salvation.

Hi, Julie. When I say "fellowship", I mean the essence of what Paul wrote in Gal2:20. The ESSENCE OF SALVATION. "Born Again".

"The life was manifested, and we have seen and bear witness and proclaim to you the eternal ife, which was with the Father and was manifested to us--- what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, that you also may have fellowship with us; and indeed our felowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ. If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth." 1Jn1

You say, "Fellowship is not salvation"; if salvation is not fellowship, then how are we "IN CHRIST"? How can we be "crucified with Christ, no longer WE who live but CHRIST lives in us"?

For those who believe in "saved-RELATIONSHIP apart from FELLOWSHIP"---I ask, what is the DIFFERENCE? Isn't the DIFFERENCE, that a saved RELATIONSHIP need not be DOING the will of the Father? And didn't Jesus say in Matt7:21, such a person would not go to Heaven? "For if we continue sinning willfully after having received knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of fire which consumes adversaries." Heb10:26

How can there be salvation apart from FELLOWSHIP with God? How can Christ indwell our hearts, DOING our good deeds THROUGH us (Philip2:12-13), without that fellowship?

How can there be salvation apart from fellowship with Christ?

 

[Julie]

You are confusing Sanctification with Salvation.

 

[Ben johnson]

How am I confused?

Please help me to understand how there can be salvation apart from fellowship with our Creator? What does "born again" mean? "In Christ"?

If "dead-to-sin-and-alive-in-Christ" is not through fellowship, if "abiding in Him and Him in us" (Jn15:1-11, 1Jn4:15-16) is not fellowship defined, then, and I ask respectfully, what is it?

Am I mis-understanding the verses I quoted? What is the correct understanding?

 

[Julie]

Sanctification is being set apart for the Lord (Ex. 13:2; Lev. 27:14-16; 1 Thess. 4:37).

(Heb. 10:9-14; Jn. 17:17-19; 1 Pet. 1:3-5; 1 Thess. 5:23)


"Sanctification is the process by which, according to the will of God, we are made partakers of His holiness; that it is a progressive work; that it is begun in regeneration; and that it is carried on in the hearts of believers by the presence and power of the Holy Spirit, the Sealer and Comforter, in the continual use of the appointed means, especially the Word of God, self-examination, self-denial, watchfulness, and prayer."


 

 

[Ben johnson]

True, no one is sinless. Though we are to strive for righteousness, and those who PRACTICE sin are not "of the light". (1Jn3 says "by this children of God and children of the devil are manifest {revealed}---he who does not practice righteousness is not of God.)

"Sanctification is the process by which, according to the will of God, we are made partakers of His holiness; that it is a progressive work; that it is begun in regeneration; and that it is carried on in the hearts of believers by the presence and power of the Holy Spirit, the Sealer and Comforter, in the continual use of the appointed means, especially the Word of God, self-examination, self-denial, watchfulness, and prayer."

I believe we are in agreement.

All I'm asking, is how can sanctification (through His blood) be accomplished APART from our fellowship with Him?

It seems to me, from Scripture, that salvation is by belief---but not any ordinary kind of belief, only the true belief that receives Christ, surrenders to Him and His will. (This is why I have been accused, and correctly so, of holding to "Lordship Salvation"---we receive Christ, through belief, as Savior, and Lord.)

How can "we-who-are-submitted-and-surrendered", not be in fellowship with Him?

What is your understanding of John's words in 1Jn1 (that I cited in blue, above)?



PS: Julie, I very much appreciate when we can discuss things, though not in perfect agreement, but without anger and hard feelings. I do respect you, even if we do not 100% agree...

 

[Julie]

STANDING - Always has to do with our salvation and relationship in Christ. It deals with the new birth; it is everlasting and unchangeable. (John 1:12; 3:16, 36:5:24; I Cor. 12:12-13)

STATE - Has to do with service and fellowship. It can change daily and has to do with the daily walk of the believer. (I Cor. 3:11 -15; 11:32; Heb. 12:5-6) State does not effect salvation.

We can lose fellowship, but never relationship. Anyone that believes otherwise is trying to add works to his salvation. God says that salvation is a GIFT and not of works. When a person realizes that his standing (i.e. relationship) is sure; then he can fully concentrate on his fellowship and day by day walk.

A person should serve Christ because he loves Him, not because he is afraid he will lose his salvation.

Because every Christian has two natures, he has the choice of following the old man or the new man. God obviously wants us to walk in the Spirit.

 

 

 

Ben now you are confusing sanctification with redemption!  It is REDEMPTION through his blood NOT sanctification!

Ephesians 1:7
In whom we have redemption through his blood,

Colossians 1:14
In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

Romans 5:9
Much more then, being now justified by his blood,

Colossians 1:20
And, having made peace through the blood of his cross

 

[FluviusNeckar]

Ben johnson writes,

None of them (including Paul, and John {Rev20:13}) believed that "good deeds save" or "evil deeds condemn"; rather, it is as Jesus said, "you will know them by their fruits (deeds)---no good tree produces bad fruit, no bad tree produces good". So then "judged acccording to DEEDS", means that it unveils their HEART, which is saved or condemned... It IS simple; [/B]

If salvation were as simple as you imagine it, then Paul, John, and James would not have made the statements they did. I return to just one which you overlooked in your festinous response. "God will render to each one according to his deeds, eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek . . . immortality. Romans 2: 6 & 7. We seek immortality by doing good.

The scripture you quote was Jesus' warning to us about false prophets like Mohammed from which good and evil issue. You might better have used Jesus' teaching "out of the good treasure of his heart, the good man brings forth good things."

Since you take the position you do, do you also agree with Luther that the book of James is evil for its clear statement that we are saved by works?

 

[FluviusNeckar]

Originally posted by Ben johnson
I do not believe Protestants hate anyone, least of all Catholics. . . . Catholics who understand salvation as "Christ-IN-you", [who have] surrendered and submitted [their lives] to Him ([as]"Lord and Master"), [and whose lives evince] the DEEDS flowing naturally (and unavoidably) from the CHRIST-FILLED-HEART, I regard . . . as my saved brothers and sisters in Christ!

Thank you for that insight into Protestants though I was trying to make another point, i.e., that animosity toward Catholicism suffuses Protestant theology not Protestants. You seem to share with Christ the divine ability to know the heart of man for how else can you know whether Protestants are so free of hatred? I think we all would like to believe you.

I note in passing that you hold Catholics to a higher standard of salvation. Since you have stated that salvation "IS" as simple as faith only, do you not discriminate against Catholics when you require them to "understand salvation," surrender and submit their lives to Him, and produce "DEEDS?" At first blush, your position seems to smell of a fishy inconsistency.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[Pastor N.B.]

Originally posted by FluviusNeckar
Ben johnson writes,

*****
Sounds clear Ben! (good material)
What work was Adam & Eve to do? Created PERFECT (very GOOD) they still lacked what we BORN AGAIN ones do! A PERFECT Character!! TESTING! So God tells us about a tree that was forbidden in the MIDST of the garden. Why?

Being re/created or Born Again is just the starting point. YET, it has got to be the starting point! And still, the done deal is seen in Eccl. 12:13-14's finish! (mature in either one way or the other)

And once we CHOOSE to do our own thing, MATURELY? (defiant) We are on very dangerous grounds! (see Psm. 19:13-Gen. 4:6 & 1 John 5:16-17)
So, you are right on by saying we have a WORK to do! See Phil. 4:13 & 2 Cor. 12:9. The PROVISION was, & is made, the WORKING DECISION is ours to make! (FREELY!) Rev. 3:16-17 And, yes the MOTIVE is the re/created LOVE! See 2 Cor. 3:3.------P/N/B/
*****



If salvation were as simple as you imagine it, then Paul, John, and James would not have made the statements they did. I return to just one which you overlooked in your festinous response. "God will render to each one according to his deeds, eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek . . . immortality. Romans 2: 6 & 7. We seek immortality by doing good.

The scripture you quote was Jesus' warning to us about false prophets like Mohammed from which good and evil issue. You might better have used Jesus' teaching "out of the good treasure of his heart, the good man brings forth good things."

Since you take the position you do, do you also agree with Luther that the book of James is evil for its clear statement that we are saved by works?

 

[Ben johnson]

We seek immortality by doing good.

FN, there is a foundational difference between what you say, and what I understand from Scripture. I would have worded your statement, "we do good BECAUSE we seek immortality. Do you see? It is not our ACTIONS that save us, but our saved heart that CAUSES the actions.

More specifically, "for by grace have you been saved through faith, and that (salvation) is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not as a result of works lest anyone boast." Eph2:8-9 Paul says salvation is:
1. Not of ourselves
2. Not of works

You cannot lift a verse or two from a letter---you must read it in context, the whole thing. (Also the other books.) Yes it seems Paul is saying "God will give HEAVEN to those who DO GOOD WORKS"---but in context, Paul is clearly saying "salvation is by RECEIVING CHRIST, which CAUSES the good deeds". The deeper understanding (so clearly asserted in the rest of Romans) is that those who truly BELONG to Jesus, DO seek glory and honor and immortality! This because of their NEW NATURE! Ya' know, Paul also wrote Galatians and Ephesians! And Paul did not contradict himself between letters---Paul believed that TRULY SAVED, will by CONSEQUENCE have the good works!

Since you take the position you do, do you also agree with Luther that the book of James is evil for its clear statement that we are saved by works?

Where in James does it say "we are saved by works"? What chapter and verse? Chapter 2? First, please read Jesus' words in Matt7: "A good tree CANNOT bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. So then, you will KNOW them by their FRUITS!" FRUITS, are DEEDS. Deeds, attitudes, approach; and Jesus said "no good tree produces bad, no bad tree produces good."

Now look at what James says in chapter 2: "What use is it if one says he has faith, BUT HAS NO WORKS? THAT faith can NOT save him, CAN it! (the Greek here, is "me dunamai"---it is a negative question, which EXPECTS an answer of "no"---so how I have just quoted it is what James MEANT... If a brother or sister comes to you needing clothing and food, and you say 'GO your way be warmed clothed and fed', but you do not give them what they NEED, what use is that? So, FAITH, if it PRODUCES no works, is DEAD (being by itsef). Foolish fellow---do you not recognize that faith without works is USELESS?! Was not Abraham justified by works, (Isaac), his faith working THROUGH his works? Consequently Abraham's faith was PERFECTED through his works (but the works came FROM his faith)..."

Where is the contradiction? James said EXACTLY WHAT JESUS SAID! "TRUE, SAVED faith, will PRODUCE the works. Nowhere did James say "you are saved through works".

In fact, James understood perfectly that "salvation and works go hand-in-hand, but the FIRST CAUSES the second!" Paul eloquently stated, "for we are His workmanship, created to WALK in good works that He prepared beforehand that we may WALK IN them!" (Eph2:10)

Because of the NATURE of our salvation, which I am contending is FELLOWSHIP, (the Gal2:20, "no longer I who live but CHRIST lives in me!), Paul further says "it is GOD who works IN us both to will and to work according to His good purpose!"

Is it clear now? Salvation is "IN CHRIST"---we are IN CHRIST, He is IN US. We are surrendered to Him, submitted to His will---and He works through us. How can there be NO GOOD WORKS to one who IS SAVED? There cannot! We MUST do good works because it is JESUS who is IN us, doing the good works THROUGH us!

"No good tree produces bad fruit, no bad tree produces good fruit!"

Thank you for that insight into Protestants though I was trying to make another point, i.e., that animosity toward Catholicism suffuses Protestant theology not Protestants. You seem to share with Christ the divine ability to know the heart of man for how else can you know whether Protestants are so free of hatred? I think we all would like to believe you.

I apologize---there was a word I left out---"SAVED Protestants". You see, SAVED people, be they Protestant or Catholic, have the mind of God; and the heart of love. Not hatred...

I'm not aware of "hatred towards Catholics suffusing Protestant theology". To be fair, Catholics do sometimes have the reputation of believing in "salvation by faith + works + sacraments"---this I find contrary to Scripture. Yet MANY Catholics have corrected me that their understanding is that TRUE salvation CONSEQUENTS in works and sacraments---this harmonizes with Scripture.

I do not want to open a huge can of worms about "subsequent extra-Biblical revelations" (which Catholics do accept)---but I think Catholics and Protestants can find agreement, in that everything IN the Bible is TRUE and GOD-INSPIRED. So that when the Bible says, "saved by grace through faith, NOT WORKS", both groups CAN BELIEVE IT!

I note in passing that you hold Catholics to a higher standard of salvation. Since you have stated that salvation "IS" as simple as faith only, do you not discriminate against Catholics when you require them to "understand salvation," surrender and submit their lives to Him, and produce "DEEDS?" At first blush, your position seems to smell of a fishy inconsistency.

No, I don't hold them to a higher standard---rather, to the same standard as myself. I have at first impression thought Catholics believe "salvation is a lifetime WORK", that "they cannot KNOW they are going to Heaven until they DIE" (this I find contradictory to passages like 1Jn5:11-13---we can KNOW we have eternal life!)--- but, on pressing them for further explanation, I am told that "salvation is IN CHRIST, sanctification and abiding and maturity is a lifetime walk, eternal life is the inheritance reserved in Heaven for those who ABIDE in salvation (abide in Christ)"; this explanation I find meshes PERFECTLY with what I believe.

Julie here has eloquently said, "A person should serve Christ because he loves Him, not because he is afraid he will lose his salvation." EXACTLY THAT! We "work out our salvation" (Philip2:12-13), by "DRAWING NEAR TO GOD that He DRAWS NEAR TO US!" (Jms4:8) Our fellowship with God, is woven of the fabric of LOVE! And love HAS no fear---1Jn4:18-19

Because every Christian has two natures, he has the choice of following the old man or the new man. God obviously wants us to walk in the Spirit.

EXACTLY that!

I just believe, that if one "backslides", it means "returning to practicing sin"---and as Heb10:26 says, "If we continue sinning willfully after RECEIVING THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but terrifying expectation of judgment, and the fury of fire which consumes adversaries". Do you suppose the writer was intending, "...after receiving HEAD-knowledge, but not SAVED-knowledge"? I don't think so---because just two verse later he writes: "How much severer punishment will he deserve who has trampled underfoot the Son of God and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he WAS SANCTIFIED, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? ...Therefore DO NOT THROW AWAY YOUR CONFIDENCE!" (according to Heb10:19 & 6:19-20, he's REALLY saying, "Don't throw away JESUS!) "For you have NEED of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God you may receive the Promise." How can these words accomdate "OSAS"? How could the writer have believed "you can be SAVED RELATIONSHIP but be out of FELLOWSHIP and SINNING WILLFULLY"?

How could the writer have meant anything but, "be careful that you remain in Jesus"???

 

[Julie]

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." (Jn. 5:24)

 

"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." (Romans 10:9)



 
"For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." (Romans 10:10)



"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Romans 10:13)

 

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." (Jn. 5:24)



"He that hath the Son hath life; he that hath not the Son of God hath not life." (I Jn. 5:12)



"These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God." (I Jn. 5:13)

 

 

 

 

 

 

Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, LUKE 24:45

 

[FluviusNeckar]

Originally posted by Ben johnson
FN, there is a foundational difference between what you say, and what I understand from Scripture. I would have worded your statement, "we do good BECAUSE we seek immortality. Do you see? It is not our ACTIONS that save us, but our saved heart that CAUSES the actions.

That statement was not mine. It was the statement of Paul around which you have been doing a one-man tango. Paul said that God would reward those who seek immortality by doing good. As long as you have a license to subtract Paul's meaning from his writings, and add a meaning more fitting to your private theology, then we can have no meaningful dialogue.

I quote again. "Eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek . . . immortality." Romans 2: 7.

Before you start resorting to "context" to prove your point, you will first have to be academically honest enough to let the Bible say what it says.

 

[FluviusNeckar]

Originally posted by Ben johnson
More specifically, "for by grace have you been saved through faith, and that (salvation) is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not as a result of works lest anyone boast." Eph2:8-9 Paul says salvation is:

1. Not of ourselves
2. Not of works

Paul spent his life fighting those who taught that Gentile Christians had to obey the Law of Moses. In the "context" of this, the major issue of Paul's public debate, his statement told the Judaizers that salvation is not a result of the works they said Gentiles had to do to be saved---works of the law. Paul realized his statement would empower his opponents and enable them to accuse him of preaching that we may sin that grace may abound. For that reason, he stated what has always been sound doctrine. to wit, "God will render to each one according to his deeds: eternal life to those who by . . . doing good seek . . . immortality. Romans 2: 6,7.