How are we certain that God created everything?

[ShaftedTwice]

Atheist: And what created the thing that created the universe?
If you say that God created the universe and that God doesn't need a creator, then we can conclude that the Universe doesn't need a creator either.

How am I to respond to this? It is not based on faith alone, if it is, I will not be able to explain to this man with the excuse of faith alone. Try to leave the Bible out of this one, because obviously, he doesnt believe in it either.

Thanks for any responses,

The always and ever Catholic,
ShaftedTwice

 

[Karl - Liberal Backslider]

Don't even think of starting to argue someone into faith starting with Creation.

Start personal. Demonstrate God through your life. Once we've established God exists, and is the God revealed through Our Lord Jesus Christ, it naturally follows He created the universe.

 

[billwald]

This is the problem of first cause. There are only two possible answers, either "God" or "Always was." Neither is testable. You pays your money and takes your choice.

 

[DynamicDrummer]

One common mistake I made and a lot of people made is they think God is limited to our dimensions. God exists OUTSIDE time, space, and matter. Since there is no time in eternity, no one has ever preceeded God and no one will ever suceed Him.

 

[PaladinValer]

Another way people limit God is that they deny that He could have used evolution to Create life...

 

[DynamicDrummer]

Probably because in Genesis it is written (in the King James Version) that on THE first day, THE second day, etc. It doesn't say that on A first day, and on A second day, etc. like in some translations. If God did use millions of years to get us here, then you have a retarded god who can't get us created right in the first place. I get the feeling that aren't talking about the same God because the God that is revealed in the scriptures created the universe in 6 literal days, and on THE seventh day, He rested.

 

[lucaspa]

Atheist: And what created the thing that created the universe?
If you say that God created the universe and that God doesn't need a creator, then we can conclude that the Universe doesn't need a creator either.

How am I to respond to this? It is not based on faith alone, if it is, I will not be able to explain to this man with the excuse of faith alone. Try to leave the Bible out of this one, because obviously, he doesnt believe in it either.

Thanks for any responses,

The always and ever Catholic,
ShaftedTwice

Karl gave you the correct answer. You don't use the Creation to "prove" God. Your belief in God comes from other areas of your life.

Now, what the atheist did was trick you. The question is: What caused the universe? Possible answer: God created it. Now the atheist says: What caused God? If you can't answer that, then your answer "God caused the universe is invalid." That's faulty logic. Knowledge works in layers. Answer one question and 3 or 4 new questions pop up out of the answer. You can't use the failure to answer a question deeper down to invalidate an answer.

We know the universe has not existed forever. The data shows that the universe had its beginning at the Big Bang about 13.4 billion years ago. So, what caused the universe? Possible answer: God. What caused God? God always existed. But it does not then follow that the universe always existed. The data shows that the universe did not always exist. There is no data on God.

As it turns out, someone also pointed out that this is eventually First Cause. There are 5 possible candidates for First Cause. http://christianforums.com/t43923 God is one of them. But that there are 4 other candidates that are not God means you can't conclude that God is First Cause. IOW, you can't "prove" God by citing First Cause.

 

[lucaspa]

Probably because in Genesis it is written (in the King James Version) that on THE first day, THE second day, etc. It doesn't say that on A first day, and on A second day, etc. like in some translations. If God did use millions of years to get us here, then you have a retarded god who can't get us created right in the first place. I get the feeling that aren't talking about the same God because the God that is revealed in the scriptures created the universe in 6 literal days, and on THE seventh day, He rested.

In Genesis 2:4b, the Bible also states that God created in one day. "in the day God created the heavens and the earth." It's even clearer in Hebrew, where the word is "beyom" for "in the day" meaning one day. It is the same word -- beyom -- used to denote the 7th day so that you know that the 7th day was just one day and isn't continuing.

Genesis 1 was deliberately written around a 6 day creation so that the authors could give a (unnecessary IMO) justification for the commandment for the Sabbath. Remember, in Jewish history, the Exodus happened first. That is, God made the 10 Commandments before Genesis was written. So God commands the Sabbath. No justification, just commands. The authors of Genesis 1 felt the need to find a justification for that command.

 

[DynamicDrummer]

So the 10 commandments were around before God gave them to Moses on Mt. Sinai?

 

[PaladinValer]

Not to mention "yom" isn't always literally one literal 24 hrs...

 

[DynamicDrummer]

Not to mention "yom" isn't always literally one literal 24 hrs...

But the word "yom" wouldn't equal out to be millions and millions of years, would it?

 

[PaladinValer]

Possibly, yes

 

[Karl - Liberal Backslider]

So the 10 commandments were around before God gave them to Moses on Mt. Sinai?

No. Genesis was written after the 10 Commandments were given.

 

[lovegod_will]

So does the Bible hold ultimate authority?

 

[DynamicDrummer]

No. Genesis was written after the 10 Commandments were given.

How do you know that? I thought it was uncertain when Genesis was written. Where and when exactly was Genesis written?

 

[PaladinValer]

Genesis was started as early as the 9th century bce but wasn't completed until Ezra redactored it along with the rest of the Torah

 

[DynamicDrummer]

Genesis was started as early as the 9th century bce but wasn't completed until Ezra redactored it along with the rest of the Torah

Oh ok. That's kool. But one questions....what does BCE mean?

 

[Dark_Lite]

Oh ok. That's kool. But one questions....what does BCE mean?

BCE = BC
CE = AD

 

[gluadys]

So does the Bible hold ultimate authority?

No. God holds ultimate authority. The authority of the bible is derivative and depends on the primary authority of God.

The authority of the bible is also derivative and secondary in that it was not given directly by God (as creation was) but through human mediaries. The human limitations and fallibilities of the human mediaries are sometimes reflected in the bible. For example, the "science" in the bible is the science contemporary with that of the humans who wrote the scripture and so is sometimes in conflict with the more extensive science of today which the writers were not aware of.

In giving scripture God tempered revelation to what humans could receive. Just as a parent provides a child with the information and guidance a child can understand, and explains matters more fully when the child is more mature.

Within this understanding, however, the bible is normative for Christians. It is their indispensable source of teaching, reproof, correction, instruction for right living, and equipping the Christian for every kind of good work. 2Tim. 3:16-17

 

[gluadys]

BCE = BC
CE = AD

And they mean "Before Common Era" and "Common Era". Since the (western) Christian calendar has become the world's common calendar no matter what a person's religion (or lack of religion) is, the terms BCE and CE are used in place of the older terms ("Before Christ" and "Anno Domini" = in the Year of our Lord) which are appropriate only in a Christian context.

It is a matter of respect for non-Christians who use the Christian dates in a secular way.

Maybe we will one day invent a new world calendar and then the Christian calendar will be used only religiously as the Jewish, Muslim, Orthodox Christian and many other calendars are used today.