How are infants saved?

Der Alter said:

Romans 4:15
(15) Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
Romans 5:13
(13) (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

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He der alter,

Could be. However, that then begs the question, why did God destroy the whole earth and destroy Sodom and Gomorrah if not for the sin and wickedness of mankind? Is it your understanding that all those people that were destroyed in both the flood and the fire and brimstone will receive eternal life because there was no law at that time? Or is there some other law that you're referring to other than the law given unto the Israelites in the desert? Is everyone who lived before Israel was given the law going to receive eternal life? Seems to me that if that were the case, God should have just skipped that step and He would get what He says is His hearts desire...that all men be saved.


God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

ladodgers6 said:

I came across this question in another thread. Want people to post their thoughts and Scripture to support it. Is there a age limit before they can be held accountable? Do infants get a pass? Do you believe in infant baptism?

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No on baptism and yes on the pass. The answer is simple...

In Hebrew there are three words that WE tend to view as "sin." But, in Hebrew, they are very unique.

1. Chata'ah - this is unintentional sin. The best way to understand this is to consider an archer with a bow and arrow. His goal is ALWAYS to hit the target (the target being God's will) and because he exists in a fallen state, he will simply miss from time to time. Lexicons say this is, "missing the mark," but it carries the idea of being unintentional or unknown.

2. Avon - we see this most times as iniquity or transgression and the idea is the same archer, same target... even the same desire (to hit the target ALL the time) but in this case he gets caught up in an emotion and aims, temporarily at the wrong target. Once he realizes and calms down, he adjusts back to the proper target.

3. Pesha - rebellion... this guy knows the target and doesn't care. His aim is deliberately at anything but the proper target.

Numbers 2 and 3 include awareness... number 1 can but doesn't have to. A baby is no aware, has no ability to make a choice... and hasn't broken any commandments other than it is born into a fallen condition. The "sin sacrifice" that is Yom Kippur and that points to Yeshua (Jesus) giving himself is specifically for chata'ah. That doesn't mean the other 2 can't be forgiven, they can... but both require repentance and a heart change whereas the heart in chata'ah was always aimed at God even when it failed.

A baby is covered because it has no ability to even know it fell short. God's grace is sufficient and He seeks to save ALL He can.

The biggest support for the fact that children too young to be accountable for their actions and the understanding of salvation, is when King Davids infant son died.

David prayed and lamented over his sick son. Praying that he be healed and restored to health.

Then, when his son died, he took off his clothes of mourning and celebrated.... His reason.....

2 Samuel 12:22-2421st Century King James Version (KJ21)

22 And he said, “While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept; for I said, ‘Who can tell whether God will be gracious to me, that the child may live?’


23 But now he is dead; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.”

David knew that his son was in paradise and that, some day, David would join him there.

ladodgers6 said:

I came across this question in another thread. Want people to post their thoughts and Scripture to support it. Is there a age limit before they can be held accountable? Do infants get a pass? Do you believe in infant baptism?

Click to expand...

An Infant, a young child cannot understand or comprehend the
Meaning or knowing the difference of being saved or not, until the child
Knows from right and wrong.
Consciously aware of this 1st,
Then presented the Gospel with
That they could refuse or believe
This is their decision to make.
This is the age that they are held
Accountable.
Water baptism does not save a
Person or for an other, if for an
Infant.

miamited said:

He der alter,
Could be. However, that then begs the question, why did God destroy the whole earth and destroy Sodom and Gomorrah if not for the sin and wickedness of mankind? Is it your understanding that all those people that were destroyed in both the flood and the fire and brimstone will receive eternal life because there was no law at that time?

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God stated very clearly why He destroyed sinful mankind in Genesis, so I don't understand why you are asking this question. When I read the Bible I don't look for errors, contradictions etc. Only God knows who is/is not saved. I'm sure that He is just and will deal justly and fairly with the pre-flood mankind.

Or is there some other law that you're referring to other than the law given unto the Israelites in the desert? Is everyone who lived before Israel was given the law going to receive eternal life? Seems to me that if that were the case, God should have just skipped that step and He would get what He says is His hearts desire...that all men be saved.
God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

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What law did Noah and his family have and obey that God considered him righteous? Psalms 19:1-4, Romans 1:17-20

Luke Paul said:

An Infant, a young child cannot understand or comprehend the
Meaning or knowing the difference of being saved or not, until the child
Knows from right and wrong.
Consciously aware of this 1st,
Then presented the Gospel with
That they could refuse or believe
This is their decision to make.
This is the age that they are held
Accountable.
Water baptism does not save a
Person or for an other, if for an
Infant.

Click to expand...

I agree. Baptism for an infant does not bring it salvation, or anyone for that matter. At some point in our life, we will have to choose to serve Christ, baptized at birth or not.

Der Alter said:

What law did Noah and his family have and obey that God considered him righteous? Psalms 19:1-4, Romans 1:17-20

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Possibly the same one that Abraham had. To believe God.

However, your position seemed to have been that Paul saying that sin is not imputed where there is no law, that there was a time that there was no law. This discussion is regarding the fate of infants and young children. All I'm saying is that infants and young children born today are born since the law of Moses' day. So, how does that apply is really what I'm trying to discern?

Now, you may well say, "But, they aren't aware of the law." Yes, I'd agree, but Paul's statement doesn't seem to place any value on whether or not one is aware of the law, just that when there is no law, sin is not imputed.

God bless you,
In Christ, Ted

What do you guys think about the possibility of multiple lives? If this is a fact, this whole question is out the window, because this "infant" will live again....and will have it's chance to make it back to Heaven.......(yes I meant back to.....no man goes to heaven save He who has left it?)

Think about....Is it fair to send a baby to hell who hasn't had a chance to do anything knowingly wrong? Also, is it fair to send an infant to Heaven who had no chance of being tempted and therefore had nothing to overcome or sacrifice?...While a man of 30 was tempt in every way and happened to fail at one goes to hell?

God is not a man, and He is not like man. We see the adulteress and pick up stones to throw.....Christ sees no fault. We see a hitler and condemn him to burn forever, God sees a son who doesnt knows it yet......who knows not what he does?

How many of you can think of a something your child can do that would make you ok with watching him burn for ever with no chance of escape? most of us cant.....but God, who IS love, can? a day is like a thousand years? So even if we lived to 85 that would still be less than 30mins to God. Is it fair to base eternity on 30mins of action( for those who believe time is real, that is). but I digress.

Every "infant" will make their way into the arms of God. What is all this talk of death anyway? When you are Born from above...of the spirit...you shall not even Taste Death, now or after this life. He who has an ear....

RaymondG said:

What do you guys think about the possibility of multiple lives? If this is a fact, this whole question is out the window, because this "infant" will live again....and will have it's chance to make it back to Heaven.......(yes I meant back to.....no man goes to heaven save He who has left it?)

Think about....Is it fair to send a baby to hell who hasn't had a chance to do anything knowingly wrong? Also, is it fair to send an infant to Heaven who had no chance of being tempted and therefore had nothing to overcome or sacrifice?...While a man of 30 was tempt in every way and happened to fail at one goes to hell?

God is not a man, and He is not like man. We see the adulteress and pick up stones to throw.....Christ sees no fault. We see a hitler and condemn him to burn forever, God sees a son who doesnt knows it yet......who knows not what he does?

How many of you can think of a something your child can do that would make you ok with watching him burn for ever with no chance of escape? most of us cant.....but God, who IS love, can? a day is like a thousand years? So even if we lived to 85 that would still be less than 30mins to God. Is it fair to base eternity on 30mins of action( for those who believe time is real, that is). but I digress.

Every "infant" will make their way into the arms of God. What is all this talk of death anyway? When you are Born from above...of the spirit...you shall not even Taste Death, now or after this life. He who has an ear....

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Well, I understand your thought process. However, this kind of puts it right out there:

Hebrews 9:27King James Version (KJV)

27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

I don't know where the first beliefs of reincarnation or such sort of events first started, but the Bible is clear that we are given one time of life on this earth.

Reiterating the scripture of David and his son, that died as an infant, David mentions nothing about the child having a second chance at living a full life on earth..

JacksBratt,

I agree, we have to die once......die to Sin...once you do, you shall never taste death again. Hard to explain spiritual things....they have to be experienced....It really does "passeth all understanding"

If you are extremely literate with the bible, there is not much else I can say that would make sense.

One day you will understand that the letter killeth and the spirit maketh alive.
Until then you should keep learning and gaining wisdom and when you are finished...... you have to acknowledge that mans wisdom is foolishness to God...and then go to him as an ?infant?(sorry trying not to stray too far from the thread topic) and let him lead and guide you into all truth and be set free!

RaymondG said:

JacksBratt,

I agree, we have to die once......die to Sin...once you do, you shall never taste death again. Hard to explain spiritual things....they have to be experienced....It really does "passeth all understanding"

If you are extremely literate with the bible, there is not much else I can say that would make sense.

One day you will understand that the letter killeth and the spirit maketh alive.
Until then you should keep learning and gaining wisdom and when you are finished...... you have to acknowledge that mans wisdom is foolishness to God...and then go to him as an ?infant?(sorry trying not to stray too far from the thread topic) and let him lead and guide you into all truth and be set free!

Click to expand...

I read this a bit different. This is not talking about "dying to sin". If it was there would not be such a concern about judgement. This "judgement" is for all men, or all mankind, each of us individually. This "judgement" is for the saved and the unsaved. For those who have died unto sin and for those that did not.

It is appointed for each human "once" to die. Then judgement. This is the death of a human life. An earthly death.

As soon as anyone dies... their next conscious moment will be standing in front of the Lord Jesus Christ, for judgement.

I strongly believe that this is not talking about "death to sin".

JacksBratt said:

I read this a bit different. This is not talking about "dying to sin". If it was there would not be such a concern about judgement. This "judgement" is for all men, or all mankind, each of us individually. This "judgement" is for the saved and the unsaved. For those who have died unto sin and for those that did not.

It is appointed for each human "once" to die. Then judgement. This is the death of a human life. An earthly death.

As soon as anyone dies... their next conscious moment will be standing in front of the Lord Jesus Christ, for judgement.

I strongly believe that this is not talking about "death to sin".

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Belief is a good start. You eventually have to move to knowing. I use to believe there were talking pigs building houses and wolves that blew them down when the story was read to me. This was most of my life in church...believe everything, questioning and trying to understand nothing. Next I started thinking.....I've never seen a pig do anything but eat and oink....this whole story is BS. This is the person who finds some falsities in church(building) doctrine or leaders and just walk out the church(building), called hypocrisy and never go back..... But you cant do that.... I tried to find the hidden meanings behind the story....and now my houses are standing while others are being blown away by the big bad ?devil? These are the people who, like Christ, can do the works He did and greater! I plan to be in the latter group. Why dont you join me.

RaymondG said:

Belief is a good start. You eventually have to move to knowing. I use to believe there where talking pigs building houses and wolves that blew them down when I read the story. This was most of my life in church...believe everything, questioning and trying to understand nothing. Next I started thinking.....I've never seen a pig do anything but eat and oink....this whole story is BS. This is the person who finds some falsities in church(building) doctrine or leaders and just walk out the church(building), called hypocrisy and never go back..... But you cant do that.... I tried to find the hidden meanings behind the story....and now my houses are standing while others are being blown away by the big bad ?devil? These are the people who, like Christ, can do the works He did and greater! I plan to be in the latter group. Why dont you join me.

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When I say " I believe" or "I strongly believe" it is because I know. I am not the type of person to unintentionally insult someone by saying things in a curt way.

So, in my last statement where I said:

I strongly believe that this is not talking about "death to sin".

I was being polite and trying not to sound arrogant. I never believed "The Three Little Pigs" story. It was obvious, to me, at a young age, that pigs don't build houses and a wolf would never eat a pig. In fact, growing up in my house you would know that if you drag a dead calf out in the back field, it will be eaten in a week. Where a dead pig will just sit and rot.

JacksBratt said:

When I say " I believe" or "I strongly believe" it is because I know. I am not the type of person to unintentionally insult someone by saying things in a curt way.

So, in my last statement where I said:

I strongly believe that this is not talking about "death to sin".

I was being polite and trying not to sound arrogant. I never believed "The Three Little Pigs" story. It was obvious, to me, at a young age, that pigs don't build houses and a wolf would never eat a pig. In fact, growing up in my house you would know that if you drag a dead calf out in the back field, it will be eaten in a week. Where a dead pig will just sit and rot.

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Good luck to you. I know everything will work out for you exactly how you believe it will. Nice talking to you.

miamited said:

Possibly the same one that Abraham had. To believe God.
However, your position seemed to have been that Paul saying that sin is not imputed where there is no law, that there was a time that there was no law. This discussion is regarding the fate of infants and young children. All I'm saying is that infants and young children born today are born since the law of Moses' day. So, how does that apply is really what I'm trying to discern?
Now, you may well say, "But, they aren't aware of the law." Yes, I'd agree, but Paul's statement doesn't seem to place any value on whether or not one is aware of the law, just that when there is no law, sin is not imputed.
God bless you,
In Christ, Ted

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I'm puzzled, why do you insist on devising arguments for everything I say? Do you want infants to be punished for sins even when they are incapable of knowing right from wrong?
Suppose we choose a random infant and place a complete OT beside him. Does the infant "have" the law? Can the infant comprehend the law?

RaymondG said:

If you are extremely literate with the bible, there is not much else I can say that would make sense.

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Hi Raymond, I hope you and Jack don't mind if I jump in with a couple of thoughts!

My first thought is this, that the Man who was the most Bible-literate of all, and who continually quoted the Scriptures to us to make His points, was the Lord Himself. He didn't need to do that, of course, but because He did, He demonstrated the importance of it and declared our need to do likewise, because it's within the pages of the Bible that the the truth of God can be found, IOW, in His "breathed" words to us that, when understood correctly, will prepare and equip us for every situation we encounter in this life, in our walk with Him .. 2 Timothy 3:16-17. And it is by the truth, NOT apart from it, that the HS is able to lead us through this life to Glory in a manner that is both pleasing and glorifying to Him

RaymondG said:

One day you will understand that the letter killeth and the spirit maketh alive.

Click to expand...

The "letter" (which in this case is the "Law of Moses"), kills those who try to save themselves by obeying it, because no one can obey it (well, there was One who did, PTL ). The Law was never meant to save anyone, rather, it was put in place to show us how sinful and lost we really are (and then to drive us to the feet of Christ in the hope of finding mercy .. i.e. Galatians 3:24).

St. Paul's statement (in 2 Corinthians 3:6) has nothing to do with our understanding of the "deeper meaning/true intent" of the Law (the "spirit" of the Law as the saying goes ), it's telling us that our 'only' hope of salvation rests in Christ APART from the Law, through the agency of the Holy Spirit. IOW, the contrast here is between the old covenant and the new, between the Law and the Spirit, between trying to save ourselves by obeying the Law (which is impossible) and being saved by grace.

The "Spirit" spoken of in this passage is the "Holy Spirit" (so it has nothing to do with the "spirit of the Law" vs the "letter of the Law").*


So whenever the Bible is speaking of the "spirit" of the Law, it never means for us to disregard the "letter" of the Law, rather, it tells us to keep the "letter" and to do so very much more than that

You continue:

RaymondG said:

Until then you should keep learning and gaining wisdom and when you are finished...... you have to acknowledge that mans wisdom is foolishness to God...and then go to him as an ?infant?(sorry trying not to stray too far from the thread topic) and let him lead and guide you into all truth and be set free!

Click to expand...

You are correct, man's wisdom is foolishness (at least where matters of the "Spirit" are concerned)! Fortunately for us, God's wisdom can be found on the pages of Scripture, for those who are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ and who, as a result, are indwelt by the HS and have been given the very "mind of Christ" The word of God cannot be apprehended by a non-believer, a "natural" man/woman, because His words must be "spiritually appraised" and are as nothing but "foolishness" to those who are not "in Christ" .. 1 Corinthians 2:12-16.

Yours in Christ,
David
p.s. - we are commanded to be as "literate" as we can be with God's word (2 Timothy 2:15), because it's clear that the less we know about the Bible, the further away we get from understanding it and it's Author properly. What we end up with is, at least in part, the word of Raymond or the word of David, etc., not the word of God

Der Alter said:

I'm puzzled, why do you insist on devising arguments for everything I say? Do you want infants to be punished for sins even when they are incapable of knowing right from wrong?
Suppose we choose a random infant and place a complete OT beside him. Does the infant "have" the law? Can the infant comprehend the law?

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Hi der alter,

It doesn't matter what I want. I'm not the judge. All I'm doing is looking at the Scriptures and making a discernment as to what they say. What I want is the truth. What I know is that my ways are not God's ways and His ways are not my ways.

However, neither do I want to make my discernments based on my particular emotional appeal regarding an issue. For me, the Scriptures don't seem to make it clear cut as to what happens to infants or young children, but it does say quite a bit about the way of salvation. Jesus said that no one can enter the kingdom of heaven unless he is born again. Was he referring only to mature adults? Can we make a case for that position from evidences found in the Scriptures? I don't think so.

I'm not sure that God works on the same emotional appeal that I might have. After all, if we believe the account of the flood, He did destroy all human life except for eight people. Surely there were children caught up in that. They would have suffered and drowned just like all the adults. In Egypt the death angel slew every first born of every family. Surely some of those first born were likely just recently born. He destroyed the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah. Are we to believe that they were some Club Med cities with only adults living in them?

So, I'm not willing to claim that God will have mercy on some class of people based on my emotional biases. Whether children and infants have sinned or not, have they been born again? The Scriptures, and even most attempts at conversion, describe people as being born with the sin nature that Adam passed on throughout all the generations. Jesus said that through the first man Adam came death, but through the second man came life. So, it would seem that some catalytic change has to happen in a person's life to gain eternal life. It is never described as something that anyone gets as just a general practice of who they are, or some class that they may belong to.

I have sorrow for pretty much everyone who dies without Jesus as their savior. Oh, maybe not the Adolph Hitlers of the world, but I believe that a lot of 'nice' people are going to wind up separated from God. I believe that it isn't my authority to determine who receives God's gift of eternal life, but that God has told us how He will make His decision. Anyone whose name is not written in the Lamb's Book of Life will not be given eternal life with God. Are we to believe that each one of us when we are born do have our names in that book, but then when we first sin our name is blotted out, but then we repent and believe our name is written back in? For me, that doesn't seem to be in line with what the Scriptures teach.

Jesus said to hinder not the little children from coming to him, but he didn't say that they had already arrived. Just as in the law of Israel, God commanded that a very large part of a parent's responsibility was to teach their children about Him. I believe that's what Jesus was also referring to. Let us, as parents and adults, teach the children the ways of God. For by not doing so we would be hindering them from going to him.

Each one of us determines what we believe to be the truth. Man has always been that way. But, what I seek is truth and I try not to base my understanding of 'truth' on my particular emotional feelings, but rather on what my Father has revealed to me in His word. I do understand that for a parent who has lost a child that such a teaching can be difficult to accept, but we are a people who stand by gravesides all the time and console loved ones with words of their departed being with God, and yet, Jesus said that few there be that find the way of eternal life. So, I think we deceive ourselves about this particular issue a lot because of the emotional appeal that we just can't stand to think that any loved one who has departed will be separated from God. That appeal is especially strong where infants and children are involved. However, I try to separate the emotional appeal and discern what is the truth that the Scriptures tell me.

Yes, I too, feel sorrow that small infants and little children would have suffered and gasped out their last breath under a deluge of rising water when God sent the flood. That parents may have been grasping at their little hands to try and save them. But, I believe that it is what happened. God's word tells me that He destroyed all life; animals and people who moved about the earth. Except for the seven people and all the animals that were with Noah. That's what God's word says.

And, as I pointed out, Paul's comments about having or not having the law don't seem to say anything about whether or not an individual is aware of or is able to comprehend that law. It merely says that where there is no law, sin is not imputed.

God bless you,
In Christ, Ted

St_Worm2 said:

Hi Raymond, I hope you and Jack don't mind if I jump in with a couple of thoughts!

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Sure, no problem at all. Our conversation was over and my initial statement was for all to consider and not any one individual.

St_Worm2 said:

My first thought is this, that the Man who was the most Bible-literate of all, and who continually quoted the Scriptures to us to make His points, was the Lord Himself. He didn't need to do that, of course, but because He did, He demonstrated the importance of it and declared our need to do likewise, because it's within the pages of the Bible that the the truth of God can be found, IOW, in His "breathed" words to us that, when understood correctly, will prepare and equip us for every situation we encounter in this life, in our walk with Him .. 2 Timothy 3:16-17. And it is by the truth, NOT apart from it, that the HS is able to lead us through this life to Glory in a manner that is both pleasing and glorifying to Him



The "letter" (which in this case is the "Law of Moses"), kills those who try to save themselves by obeying it, because no one can obey it (well, there was One who did, PTL ). The Law was never meant to save anyone, rather, it was put in place to show us how sinful and lost we really are (and then to drive us to the feet of Christ in the hope of finding mercy .. i.e. Galatians 3:24).

St. Paul's statement (in 2 Corinthians 3:6) has nothing to do with our understanding of the "deeper meaning/true intent" of the Law (the "spirit" of the Law as the saying goes ), it's telling us that our 'only' hope of salvation rests in Christ APART from the Law, through the agency of the Holy Spirit. IOW, the contrast here is between the old covenant and the new, between the Law and the Spirit, between trying to save ourselves by obeying the Law (which is impossible) and being saved by grace.

The "Spirit" spoken of in this passage is the "Holy Spirit" (so it has nothing to do with the "spirit of the Law" vs the "letter of the Law").*

*This comparison (the "spirit" vs the "letter" of the Law) is made elsewhere in the Bible however. It was something the Lord blamed the Pharisees with (i.e. Matthew 23:23), who believed they were actually 'keeping' the Law. But in saying this to them, the Lord didn't mean that they were being too exacting, rather, that they were not being exacting enough IOW, they were doing what they should have been doing by obeying the "letter" of the Law as perfectly as they could, but there was so much more to it, the weightier portions of it, what it meant by the "spirit" of the Law in this case. 'That' they were failing to understand and do.​

So whenever the Bible is speaking of the "spirit" of the Law, it never means for us to disregard the "letter" of the Law, rather, it tells us to keep the "letter" and to do so very much more than that

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Remember another character in the Bible who continually quoted scripture.......the devil. He uses it well, but seems to mis-apply them. But if we are going to be like Jesus, lets quote from the only scriptures he knew of at the times. The "OT". So far I only see you mention text from the NT which wasn't even around until almost 100 years after his "death." And I assure you, everything in the new is in the old as well.

Also the bible scholars....Masters of the Law....Lawyers (interpreters of the bible) dedicated their whole lives to priesthood and the study of the torah, prophets and the writings. They knew it better than anyone and better than i ever could. Yet these were the pharisees and hypocrites that Jesus rebuked the most. Even the nice ones like nicodemus, another master of the jews, knew nothing of the spirit.

Learning the letters without the spirit i dont think will help us much. But it is very important. You just need to move pass the letters and stories at some point in time and get to the spiritual meanings. Jesus said he spoke in parable so that seeing that would not see and hearing they would not hear. And without parable spoke he not the the multitudes. They think they understand but they dont. And in secret Jesus told his disciples about the mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven. Until we are taught the Mysteries by Christ, we are just the blind leading blind. God will direct our path. Trust in Him and lean not to thine own understand....This is what I hear.

St_Worm2 said:

You continue:



You are correct, man's wisdom is foolishness (at least where matter of the "Spirit" are concerned)! Fortunately for us, God's wisdom can be found on the pages of Scripture, for those who are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ and who, as a result, are indwelt by the HS and have been given the very "mind of Christ" The word of God cannot be apprehended by a non-believer, a "natural" man/woman, because His words must be "spiritually appraised" and are as nothing but "foolishness" to those who are not "in Christ" .. 1 Corinthians 2:12-16.

Yours in Christ,
David
p.s. - we are commanded to be as "literate" as we can be with God's word (2 Timothy 2:15), because it's clear that the less we know about the Bible, the further away we get from understanding it and it's Author properly. What we end up with is, at least in part, the word of Raymond or the word of David, etc., not the word of God

"Study [be diligent] to present yourself approved to
God, as a workman who does not need to be
ashamed, handling accurately [rightly
dividing] the word of truth"
2 Tim 2:15​

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I disagree with the notion that the truth of God is found in a book. It can lead you to it , but it cannot give it to you.....only God can. Truth cant be taught and learned...It can only be experienced....and even once you experience it, you cant give the truth to others...you can only try to lead them to it. When you experience the truth, you are set free....no more talk of this dying stuff etc...

You can read a driving book and books on the ins and outs of cars for decades.....but you cant say that it is Truth that you KNOW how to drive until you actually get behind the wheel and experience it. And think about it, would I take driving lessons from someone who has studied for years but never actually drove? And why wouldnt I.....but wait...on a side note, isnt our Soul more important? Should we take as truth the method to go to heaven from someone who has only read instruction on how to do so but never did it?....but this is a topic for another thread....

miamited said:

Hi der alter,
It doesn't matter what I want. I'm not the judge. All I'm doing is looking at the Scriptures and making a discernment as to what they say. What I want is the truth. What I know is that my ways are not God's ways and His ways are not my ways.
However, neither do I want to make my discernments based on my particular emotional appeal regarding an issue. For me, the Scriptures don't seem to make it clear cut as to what happens to infants or young children, but it does say quite a bit about the way of salvation. Jesus said that no one can enter the kingdom of heaven unless he is born again. Was he referring only to mature adults? Can we make a case for that position from evidences found in the Scriptures? I don't think so.
I'm not sure that God works on the same emotional appeal that I might have. After all, if we believe the account of the flood, He did destroy all human life except for eight people. Surely there were children caught up in that. They would have suffered and drowned just like all the adults. In Egypt the death angel slew every first born of every family. Surely some of those first born were likely just recently born. He destroyed the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah. Are we to believe that they were some Club Med cities with only adults living in them?
So, I'm not willing to claim that God will have mercy on some class of people based on my emotional biases. Whether children and infants have sinned or not, have they been born again? The Scriptures, and even most attempts at conversion, describe people as being born with the sin nature that Adam passed on throughout all the generations. Jesus said that through the first man Adam came death, but through the second man came life. So, it would seem that some catalytic change has to happen in a person's life to gain eternal life. It is never described as something that anyone gets as just a general practice of who they are, or some class that they may belong to.
I have sorrow for pretty much everyone who dies without Jesus as their savior. Oh, maybe not the Adolph Hitlers of the world, but I believe that a lot of 'nice' people are going to wind up separated from God. I believe that it isn't my authority to determine who receives God's gift of eternal life, but that God has told us how He will make His decision. Anyone whose name is not written in the Lamb's Book of Life will not be given eternal life with God. Are we to believe that each one of us when we are born do have our names in that book, but then when we first sin our name is blotted out, but then we repent and believe our name is written back in? For me, that doesn't seem to be in line with what the Scriptures teach.
Jesus said to hinder not the little children from coming to him, but he didn't say that they had already arrived. Just as in the law of Israel, God commanded that a very large part of a parent's responsibility was to teach their children about Him. I believe that's what Jesus was also referring to. Let us, as parents and adults, teach the children the ways of God. For by not doing so we would be hindering them from going to him.
Each one of us determines what we believe to be the truth. Man has always been that way. But, what I seek is truth and I try not to base my understanding of 'truth' on my particular emotional feelings, but rather on what my Father has revealed to me in His word. I do understand that for a parent who has lost a child that such a teaching can be difficult to accept, but we are a people who stand by gravesides all the time and console loved ones with words of their departed being with God, and yet, Jesus said that few there be that find the way of eternal life. So, I think we deceive ourselves about this particular issue a lot because of the emotional appeal that we just can't stand to think that any loved one who has departed will be separated from God. That appeal is especially strong where infants and children are involved. However, I try to separate the emotional appeal and discern what is the truth that the Scriptures tell me.
Yes, I too, feel sorrow that small infants and little children would have suffered and gasped out their last breath under a deluge of rising water when God sent the flood. That parents may have been grasping at their little hands to try and save them. But, I believe that it is what happened. God's word tells me that He destroyed all life; animals and people who moved about the earth. Except for the seven people and all the animals that were with Noah. That's what God's word says.
And, as I pointed out, Paul's comments about having or not having the law don't seem to say anything about whether or not an individual is aware of or is able to comprehend that law. It merely says that where there is no law, sin is not imputed.
God bless you,
In Christ, Ted

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Hebrew 9:27
In the flood and Sodom and Gomorrah, if God had only destroyed the adults who would have cared for the surviving infants and children?