How are back in History do Restorationist go?

[Thedictator]

Well the Restorationist's movement in America only goes back to the 1700's. In the 1500's in Europe people like John Lock tryed to Restore reason back to studing the Bible. In the Middle ages Erasmus of Rotterdam worked to Restore what he called "the pure source of faith" ( The Bible) to the people. In the late 100's AD Hippolytus Tryed to Restore True church government. In the first Century The Restorationist Paul Restored the true teaching of salvation to the Gentiles. On 33 AD the greatest Restorationist to ever live Jesus Christ Restored man's relationship with God.

 

[Thedictator]

Boy I'm DUMB, It's How Far back in history do restorationist go?

 

[benidict]

Well the Restorationist's movement in America only goes back to the 1700's. In the 1500's in Europe people like John Lock tryed to Restore reason back to studing the Bible. In the Middle ages Erasmus of Rotterdam worked to Restore what he called "the pure source of faith" ( The Bible) to the people. In the late 100's AD Hippolytus Tryed to Restore True church government. In the first Century The Restorationist Paul Restored the true teaching of salvation to the Gentiles. On 33 AD the greatest Restorationist to ever live Jesus Christ Restored man's relationship with God.

Fascinating take on history to say the least.

 

[Thedictator]

Fascinating take on history to say the least.

Well, thank you, I think.

 

[Justa Guy]

There is no question that many times in the history of the Church that groups of individuals sought to "restore the Church." Often these attempts were met with violence.

 

[Thedictator]

There is no question that many times in the history of the Church that groups of individuals sought to "restore the Church." Often these attempts were met with violence.

Yes that is the way the false church acted, take the case of William Hunter in the 1500's would not take communion for a lot of reasons but the Bishop of that area had him put to death. Why? Because the false church could not control him. For them they want power not holiness.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Strangely, in the early nineteenth century the Restoration movement was subverted by Joseph Smith who was influenced by new members of his church who had come from Campbellite churches. Smith claimed that his church (Mormon) was the true restored Church of Jesus Christ. To this day, Mormons proclaim that Mr. Smith restored the church to its original state. He did this, not by studying the Bible and/or early church history, but by divine revelation (as he claimed it to be), thus making his "restoration" truly authentic.

In the meantime, in Ireland and England a movement was afoot to restore the church to its original form. In time this movement garnered the name, Plymouth Brethren. They spread throughout the world and remain vibrant to this day. They bear many interesting paralells to the Cambellite movement of which you all are a part.

 

[Thedictator]

Strangely, in the early nineteenth century the Restoration movement was subverted by Joseph Smith who was influenced by new members of his church who had come from Campbellite churches. Smith claimed that his church (Mormon) was the true restored Church of Jesus Christ. To this day, Mormons proclaim that Mr. Smith restored the church to its original state. He did this, not by studying the Bible and/or early church history, but by divine revelation (as he claimed it to be), thus making his "restoration" truly authentic.

In the meantime, in Ireland and England a movement was afoot to restore the church to its original form. In time this movement garnered the name, Plymouth Brethren. They spread throughout the world and remain vibrant to this day. They bear many interesting paralells to the Cambellite movement of which you all are a part.

The Mormon Church was never part of the American Restoration Movement. Sidney Rigdon who was a member of the Restoration movement and friend of Alexander Campbell left the movement and brought to the Mormon Church the restoration philosophy. He later started an independent break off Mormon Church known as the Church of Jesus Christ they are mostly in Pennsylvania.

Alexander Campbell did meet with leaders of the English Movement and united with them. A lot of his early ideas came from Greville Ewing who was a leader of the Scotland Restoration Movement.

 

[a pilgrim]

...and I still cling to the concept that the TRUE church never has, nor ever will need to be Restored or Reformed.

Matt. 16
[18] And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Matt. 28
[18] And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
[19] Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
[20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Eph. 3
[20] Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,
[21] Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.


That pretty much sums it up.

 

[Thedictator]

...and I still cling to the concept that the TRUE church never has, nor ever will need to be Restored or Reformed.

Matt. 16
[18] And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Matt. 28
[18] And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
[19] Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
[20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Eph. 3
[20] Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,
[21] Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.


That pretty much sums it up.

That pretty much says nothing as for as the church being restored. Taking the word out of context does not make the grade here. Maybe it does in some denomination. They alway miss use the Word.

God has alway restored his people back to him all through history. The Bible is full of restionation stories.

 

[Jack Bauer]

I was part of this "church restoration" movement that supposedly already "restored the church". However, as I dug deeper and deeper in to real history I turned white as a ghost to discover that the original churhc established by Christ looked more like a faith I abhorred. It turns out the Ignaius of Antioch not only called the Church "catholic", meaning universal and a few other better interpretations, but also described the Catholic and Orthodox Church. They obviously believed in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist and were not to do anything without the bishop. He condemned those that do not believe the bread is Christ's body and the wine is Christ's blood. He called them heretics and said not to have anything to do with them.

Had this been the only person I uncovered saying this I might have ignored it. But that's not what happened. I then returned to studying what Catholicism and Orthodoxy teaches. My family joined the "One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church" that we uncovered was printed throughout history. Sin exists everywhere and the saying goes that "the Church is a hospital for sinners." Every time I try to disprove Catholicism or Orthodoxy, which is also really Catholic, I find myself lost in history unable to source believers that were not considered heretics and were for the most part Gnostics.

 

[Thedictator]

I was part of this "church restoration" movement that supposedly already "restored the church". However, as I dug deeper and deeper in to real history I turned white as a ghost to discover that the original churhc established by Christ looked more like a faith I abhorred. It turns out the Ignaius of Antioch not only called the Church "catholic", meaning universal and a few other better interpretations, but also described the Catholic and Orthodox Church. They obviously believed in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist and were not to do anything without the bishop. He condemned those that do not believe the bread is Christ's body and the wine is Christ's blood. He called them heretics and said not to have anything to do with them.

Had this been the only person I uncovered saying this I might have ignored it. But that's not what happened. I then returned to studying what Catholicism and Orthodoxy teaches. My family joined the "One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church" that we uncovered was printed throughout history. Sin exists everywhere and the saying goes that "the Church is a hospital for sinners." Every time I try to disprove Catholicism or Orthodoxy, which is also really Catholic, I find myself lost in history unable to source believers that were not considered heretics and were for the most part Gnostics.

Really????? Christ established idolatry? Are you really telling me the church who murdered millions in the of religion is the same one Jesus heads today. The Church of the Bible and the Catholic Church are not one in the same. Yes I'm sure that those who changed the church thoughtout history for the worst would say it was the original. I have done historical research also.

 

[Jack Bauer]

Really????? Christ established idolatry? Are you really telling me the church who murdered millions in the of religion is the same one Jesus heads today. The Church of the Bible and the Catholic Church are not one in the same. Yes I'm sure that those who changed the church throughout history for the worst would say it was the original. I have done historical research also.

I see you speak anit-Catholic quite well. It's a common language that seems hip to even Catholics. The bible exists because of the Church, not the other way around. Asserting that the Church Christ found is not the same as the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church is what I once beleived too. I doubt very seriously that you know church history well at all by making that statement. I too spoke the same language once. But it was digging deep into history that changed my mind - not jumping on some bandwagon of popular belief.

Your assertion about the Catholic Church killing millions is quite offensive and offensive by the fact you have not cited anything to back what you're saying or what it encompasses. The Church killed no one. People killed people. Unfortunately leaders in religious organization have killed many. but the numbers you cited would have had to be over a long stretch of time, hundreds of years. Those deaths were part of the culture of the time. Do you remember what happened when Moses returned form the Mount? Aaron killed many.

Exodus 32:25-29

English Standard Version (ESV)

25And when Moses saw that the people had broken loose (for Aaron had let them break loose, to the derision of their enemies), 26then Moses stood in the gate of the camp and said, "Who is on the LORD’s side? Come to me." And all the sons of Levi gathered around him. 27And he said to them, "Thus says the LORD God of Israel, 'Put your sword on your side each of you, and go to and fro from gate to gate throughout the camp, and each of you kill his brother and his companion and his neighbor.'" 28And the sons of Levi did according to the word of Moses. And that day about three thousand men of the people fell. 29And Moses said, "Today you have been ordained for the service of the LORD, each one at the cost of his son and of his brother, so that he might bestow a blessing upon you this day.""

Catholics, Protestants, Hindu, Buddhists, Muslims, Jews and Pagans have all killed many people in the name of their religious beliefs in their time. But the sins of individual people doesn't debunk anything. The Church is a hospital for sinners, not a resort for the saved. You're anti-Catholicism is showing. It not only lacks truth, but also lacks charm.

Go look at this website of the many converts that were once preachers, missionaries, elders and preacher's kids, etc. We've converted to Catholicism and Orthodoxy. Sorry for your loss.

 

[a pilgrim]

I see you speak anit-Catholic quite well. It's a common language that seems hip to even Catholics. The bible exists because of the Church, not the other way around. Asserting that the Church Christ found is not the same as the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church is what I once beleived too. I doubt very seriously that you know church history well at all by making that statement. I too spoke the same language once. But it was digging deep into history that changed my mind - not jumping on some bandwagon of popular belief.

Your assertion about the Catholic Church killing millions is quite offensive and offensive by the fact you have not cited anything to back what you're saying or what it encompasses. The Church killed no one. People killed people. Unfortunately leaders in religious organization have killed many. but the numbers you cited would have had to be over a long stretch of time, hundreds of years. Those deaths were part of the culture of the time. Do you remember what happened when Moses returned form the Mount? Aaron killed many.

Catholics, Protestants, Hindu, Buddhists, Muslims, Jews and Pagans have all killed many people in the name of their religious beliefs in their time. But the sins of individual people doesn't debunk anything. The Church is a hospital for sinners, not a resort for the saved. You're anti-Catholicism is showing. It not only lacks truth, but also lacks charm.

Go look at this website of the many converts that were once preachers, missionaries, elders and preacher's kids, etc. We've converted to Catholicism and Orthodoxy. Sorry for your loss.

Read The Martyr's Mirror. That will settle any dreams the Catholic Church as well as others were not responsible for the death's of millions of people in the name of the Holy "Catholic" Church.

Martyr's Mirror Online

In the year 1571, on the 11th of March, in the night, the Spaniards at Deventer (having held a tournament during the day) went out with swords,halberds, guns, and many other implements, to apprehend the sheep of Christ. They went through many houses, searching in some streets from house to house; and all whom they could find they apprehended, and fettered and ironed them, saying, "O you heretical dogs, because you deny the Roman Catholic faith you will have to die." For a few days the gates were closed, and there was read by the sound of the town bell, the proclamation, that no one should conceal any, and if any one should know of any that were concealed, that he should report them. But this order was not obeyed; for many were concealed, who secretly fled, and left their goods for a spoil. In all there were apprehended twelve, namely, Ydse Gaukes, Dirck van Wesel, with Anneken and Janneken, their wives; Harmen the dyer, Bruyn, and Anthonis the weaver, Claes Opreyder, Li j sbet and Catharina Somerhuys, Lijntgen Joris, and Trijntgen her daughter; all of whom at first when they were apprehended, were valiant, and confessed their faith; but some were greatly afraid according to the flesh, and abandoned the faith even before they were tortured. (In the torture they were drawn up, their hands tied behind their back and heavy weights of iron, or cannon balls, suspended to their feet). Several others did indeed remain valiant in the torture, but subsequently also apostatized from the faith; and four remained valiant throughout.

Just a sample of Catholic treatment of those they deemed, heretical dogs.

 

[Jack Bauer]

Read The Martyr's Mirror. That will settle any dreams the Catholic Church as well as others were not responsible for the death's of millions of people in the name of the Holy "Catholic" Church.

.....

Just a sample of Catholic treatment of those they deemed, heretical dogs.

I'm familiar with many atrocities done in the name of Christ and the Church. Let's not kid ourselves into believing that Protestants didn't do similar things. If you read more of the history surrounding many of the reformers you'll find that they too wanted to order the deaths of people. You see, this is NOT the Church, but people who believe they are acting on behalf of the Church... HUGE difference. Anyone the professes Christ has a history of persecution blood on their hands - figuratively speaking. I'm not happy with what those leaders did or justified as well. It's why I left Catholicism many years ago. Ultimately, it was history, not bad examples and bad leadership that led me back but truth.

Would you leave the Church of Christ because of Judas?

 

[a pilgrim]

I'm familiar with many atrocities done in the name of Christ and the Church. Let's not kid ourselves into believing that Protestants didn't do similar things. If you read more of the history surrounding many of the reformers you'll find that they too wanted to order the deaths of people. You see, this is NOT the Church, but people who believe they are acting on behalf of the Church... HUGE difference. Anyone the professes Christ has a history of persecution blood on their hands - figuratively speaking. I'm not happy with what those leaders did or justified as well. It's why I left Catholicism many years ago. Ultimately, it was history, not bad examples and bad leadership that led me back but truth.

Let's look at Pope Honorius:

"And all heretics, of both sexes and of every name, we damn [I thought that God does this] to perpetual infamy; we declare hostility against them; we account them accursed, and their goods confiscated; nor can they ever enjoy their property, or their children succeed to their inheritance [punishing the children!]; inasmuch as they grievously offend against the Eternal as well as the temporal king [the pope]." source: Quinta Compilatio Epistolarum Decretalium Honorii III. P.M. Innocentii Cironii, Juris Utriusque Professoris, Canonici ac Ecclesiae, et Academae Tolosannae Cancellarii, Comp. v. tit. iv. cap. i. p. 200; Tolosae, 1645.
​

This is not RANDOM people acting by themselves. This is the decree of a pope.

Would you leave the Church of Christ because of Judas?

Judas was a demon possessed false apostle. He never was a "member" of the body of Christ.

 

[Jack Bauer]

Let's look at Pope Honorius:

"And all heretics, of both sexes and of every name, we damn [I thought that God does this] to perpetual infamy; we declare hostility against them; we account them accursed, and their goods confiscated; nor can they ever enjoy their property, or their children succeed to their inheritance [punishing the children!]; inasmuch as they grievously offend against the Eternal as well as the temporal king [the pope]." source: Quinta Compilatio Epistolarum Decretalium Honorii III. P.M. Innocentii Cironii, Juris Utriusque Professoris, Canonici ac Ecclesiae, et Academae Tolosannae Cancellarii, Comp. v. tit. iv. cap. i. p. 200; Tolosae, 1645.
​

This is not RANDOM people acting by themselves. This is the decree of a pope.

Judas was a demon possessed false apostle. He never was a "member" of the body of Christ.

Wow. Where's the Rolling on the Floor Laughing my Tail Off emoticon?

Have you ever really read the bible or is that just too much to ask? I find folks that try to exclude evidence showing authority given to the apostles and his disciples, passed on down through time, to lack a sense of reason. about them. I never walk around condemning people and their religion. The use of Judas, whether he was possessed or not is irrelevant to the discussion. It is a discussion I hope. I do not have time nor the desire to engage in debate with you or anyone else. However, I discussion of facts is fine, so long as I have time.
The fact is that Jesus gave the apostles much authority to exercise. My hands are tied right now anyway, because I can't post links to website providing much information for reading. As my hands become untied, I'll start posting links. Copying and pasting is not enough. Ever read articles from New Advent? There are other documents. There is no doubt that many leaders in the Church have made some pretty bad decisions. Some are considered heretics, including Popes. But the discussion is about "The Church" doing something. The individuals, collaboratively at times, did do and say horrible things. But they are not "The Church" but rather flawed human beings attempting to exercise authority inappropriately or in some cases horribly. Your evidence only solidified my conjecture.


Matthew 16:15-19
John 20:19 - 29
Acts 5:1-11

 

[Thedictator]

The Catholic Church is not the first or the original Church. The early Church used many names "the way" "Christian Church" "Church of Christ" Church of God and many more. The word catholic was never used until the late 2nd century and it was used less than most of the other names. Around the 2nd Century many of the bishops wanted political power over the religious power they had. It was not until the 4th century that they truly gained that political power and began to turn the Church of Jesus into a political organization, at that point it truly stoped being Christ's Church and became the Political organization we know today as the Roman Catholic Church. The followers of the Catholic Church left the Church to become the oldest false so called Christian religion which is more political than religious.

The Catholic Church with it's political power began centuries of persecution. Popes ordered the violent torture, rape of woman and the execution of millions of so called heretics and non believers ( mostly Jews) The whole Catholic Church was guilty of this crime. Did the body rise up and say no to this evil and remove the leaders as God told them to do in the Bible the Word of God? No, they went along with it. The true Church of Jesus Christ had to go underground and stay there until the 1700's.

Power and authority was given to the Apostles to govern the Church but that power and authority was placed in the New Testament ( God's Word ) that they through the Holy Spirit wrote. It is God's Word that governs the Church today not a bunch of ungodly people or a pope.

Around 1095 Pope Urban II declared War on the Muslims. This war lasted until the 1300's when the Muslims won. Again million died in this war. In my book what the Nazi party did in the 1930 and 40 has no comparison to what evil the Catholic Church has done thoughout history.

My salvation is not based on dead men thoughout history or some kind of religious genealogies, that Jews who also think they are saved by. ( 1 Timothy 1:3 ) My salvation is by faith.


THE CHURCH IS NOT THE SAME AS THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.

 

[Jack Bauer]

See what I mean. Perfect example of no academic or intellectual honesty contained within these comments. It also is the opposite example of what Christ taught us to be, charitable.

The Catholic Church is not the first or the original Church. The early Church used many names "the way" "Christian Church" "Church of Christ" Church of God and many more. The word catholic was never used until the late 2nd century and it was used less than most of the other names. Around the 2nd Century many of the bishops wanted political power over the religious power they had. It was not until the 4th century that they truly gained that political power and began to turn the Church of Jesus into a political organization, at that point it truly stoped being Christ's Church and became the Political organization we know today as the Roman Catholic Church. The followers of the Catholic Church left the Church to become the oldest false so called Christian religion which is more political than religious.

The Catholic Church with it's political power began centuries of persecution. Popes ordered the violent torture, rape of woman and the execution of millions of so called heretics and non believers ( mostly Jews) The whole Catholic Church was guilty of this crime. Did the body rise up and say no to this evil and remove the leaders as God told them to do in the Bible the Word of God? No, they went along with it. The true Church of Jesus Christ had to go underground and stay there until the 1700's.

Power and authority was given to the Apostles to govern the Church but that power and authority was placed in the New Testament ( God's Word ) that they through the Holy Spirit wrote. It is God's Word that governs the Church today not a bunch of ungodly people or a pope.

Around 1095 Pope Urban II declared War on the Muslims. This war lasted until the 1300's when the Muslims won. Again million died in this war. In my book what the Nazi party did in the 1930 and 40 has no comparison to what evil the Catholic Church has done thoughout history.

My salvation is not based on dead men thoughout history or some kind of religious genealogies, that Jews who also think they are saved by. ( 1 Timothy 1:3 ) My salvation is by faith.


THE CHURCH IS NOT THE SAME AS THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.

 

[Jack Bauer]

Google early christian documents and look for the Ignatius of Antioch letter to the Smyrnaeans.

I removed the link that I used "dot" to help post it. I hope this didn't offend anyone. I also hope that a charitable debate on Church History can be conducted without the hateful remarks.

Written around 107 A.D.