Honest Question

[Hotpepper]

I have been reading this Progressive/Moderate Adventists faith group for the past couple of weeks. It seems to be relatively active but only by a handful. Is this group growing or has it always been a steady stream of regular posters? Anyway, everyone seems very nice and friendly here however I do have a couple of concerns.

First, I am a firm believer in the Scriptures and what they say. In fact I believe that it is the infallible Word of God. With that being said I do not believe that God's Word is limited only to the Scriptures and the Scriptures alone. Neither do I believe that the words on the pages are particularly saving in themselves but rather the context, which is the understanding that can only be given through the Holy Spirit. Also it is within this truth that is revealed by the Holy Spirit unto everlasting life that this love for Him is conceived and built into a trusting unshakable faith that continuously renews our hearts daily.

My concerns are that I have seen several posters here that do not believe in this very same way that I do (which is fine) and I wonder if this would be the right place for me. Are there many others here that believe and hold to the Scriptures? I'm not saying that I will not tolerate anything other than this. Not at all. In fact I respect individualism and believe that God has given each and every one of us the liberty and freedom to believe however we wish to believe. Who would I be to think any other way?

I've been having problems finding the right place here because it seems as though every time I write about freedom and liberty through love I am instantly challenged or pounced on. I do not conciser myself an SDA in that I adhere to the fundamental beliefs. I have a problem with certain ones and will not subscribe myself to such a system. However I have many friends that are SDA and I have attended church with them several times but I will not become a member. Many beliefs that I have run parallel with certain SDA pastors that I listen to regularly or read books from such as Herb Montgomery, Graham Maxwell, Timothy R. Jennings and I also love C.S. Lewis. Now, although Ellen White has written a few uplifting and edifying books (such as "The Desire of Ages") I do not by any stretch of the imagination believe that she was a prophetess.

I personally keep the Sabbath but not out of commandment to do so, I do it out of love and remembrance of the Creator recognizing that He is the one that made all of us and a workman is due his reward. We are his workmanship so because of this I remember Him on the Sabbath by love and not by commandment. No one can say to the one they love that they are only with them out of duty, obligation and commandment. How well would that be received? Yet it is sad that the Lord has to hear this far too often. We are with the ones we love because we love them. We do the things we do for them because we want to show them our love and to me, God deserves much, much more.

So my concern is that of respect. I will respect the individuals here that do not hold Scripture to be divinely inspired because that is the freedom you have been given from God and my love for liberty is as great as my love for God. "Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty." (2 Corinthians 3:17) Especially considering "God is Love" (1 John 4:8) and with love comes liberty. I only ask for the same respect back because I know nothing in and of myself but through the the Word of God. This will be a constant theme of mine to quote Scripture once in a while so I don't want to start off on the wrong foot with some who might somehow take offense to my believe in the authority of the Scriptures. I want you to know exactly where I am coming from right off the bat. I also do not bring this up for reason of a debate or contention but only for the sake of peace and respect of liberties. Feel free to read my testimony of Jesus Christ and may God bless you and bring you peace!

-Pepper

 

[k4c]

I have been reading this Progressive/Moderate Adventists faith group for the past couple of weeks. It seems to be relatively active but only by a handful. Is this group growing or has it always been a steady stream of regular posters? Anyway, everyone seems very nice and friendly here however I do have a couple of concerns.

First, I am a firm believer in the Scriptures and what they say. In fact I believe that it is the infallible Word of God. With that being said I do not believe that God's Word is limited only to the Scriptures and the Scriptures alone. Neither do I believe that the words on the pages are particularly saving in themselves but rather the context, which is the understanding that can only be given through the Holy Spirit. Also it is within this truth that is revealed by the Holy Spirit unto everlasting life that this love for Him is conceived and built into a trusting unshakable faith that continuously renews our hearts daily.

My concerns are that I have seen several posters here that do not believe in this very same way that I do (which is fine) and I wonder if this would be the right place for me. Are there many others here that believe and hold to the Scriptures? I'm not saying that I will not tolerate anything other than this. Not at all. In fact I respect individualism and believe that God has given each and every one of us the liberty and freedom to believe however we wish to believe. Who would I be to think any other way?

I've been having problems finding the right place here because it seems as though every time I write about freedom and liberty through love I am instantly challenged or pounced on. I do not conciser myself an SDA in that I adhere to the fundamental beliefs. I have a problem with certain ones and will not subscribe myself to such a system. However I have many friends that are SDA and I have attended church with them several times but I will not become a member. Many beliefs that I have run parallel with certain SDA pastors that I listen to regularly or read books from such as Herb Montgomery, Graham Maxwell, Timothy R. Jennings and I also love C.S. Lewis. Now, although Ellen White has written a few uplifting and edifying books (such as "The Desire of Ages") I do not by any stretch of the imagination believe that she was a prophetess.

I personally keep the Sabbath but not out of commandment to do so, I do it out of love and remembrance of the Creator recognizing that He is the one that made all of us and a workman is due his reward. We are his workmanship so because of this I remember Him on the Sabbath by love and not by commandment. No one can say to the one they love that they are only with them out of duty, obligation and commandment. How well would that be received? Yet it is sad that the Lord has to hear this far too often. We are with the ones we love because we love them. We do the things we do for them because we want to show them our love and to me, God deserves much, much more.

So my concern is that of respect. I will respect the individuals here that do not hold Scripture to be divinely inspired because that is the freedom you have been given from God and my love for liberty is as great as my love for God. "Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty." (2 Corinthians 3:17) Especially considering "God is Love" (1 John 4:8) and with love comes liberty. I only ask for the same respect back because I know nothing in and of myself but through the the Word of God. This will be a constant theme of mine to quote Scripture once in a while so I don't want to start off on the wrong foot with some who might somehow take offense to my believe in the authority of the Scriptures. I want you to know exactly where I am coming from right off the bat. I also do not bring this up for reason of a debate or contention but only for the sake of peace and respect of liberties. Feel free to read my testimony of Jesus Christ and may God bless you and bring you peace!

-Pepper

Hi HP,

I believe the Bible is infallible in its original language but much can be said about translations.

I believe the Bible has the ability to make one wise for salvation, if that is the purpose for which they read it. The reason for this is because they point to Jesus but many people who read the Bible don't want Jesus.

2 Timothy 3:15 From childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

John 5:39-40 "You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. "But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

As far as EGW goes, a prophet is one who speaks for God so I have no problem with viewing her has one who spoke for God. But we are not called to take everything someone says, even if they are viewed as one who has the gift of prophecy.

Listen to how God directs us in this matter.

1 Thessalonians 5:20-21 Do not despise the words of prophets, but test everything that is said to be sure it is true, and if it is, then accept it.

God calls us to test things and if it's good, hold on to it, if it seems not so good than just think of it as information only. Sometimes a word might be said out of season but will make sense later in life.

I too believe, as you do, that God's grace has set us free from the condemning aspect of the Law on stone with it's outward influence on the actions of sinful man but I don't believe we have been set free to break the Law.

Romans 6:15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!

Romans 6:1-2 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not!

The freedom we have is found in godly love. God's love will write His Law on our hearts and minds and will manifest itself through obedience without burden.

1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.

Keep up the good work and may God bless you as a light shinning in a dark place.

 

[StormyOne]

I have been reading this Progressive/Moderate Adventists faith group for the past couple of weeks. It seems to be relatively active but only by a handful. Is this group growing or has it always been a steady stream of regular posters? Anyway, everyone seems very nice and friendly here however I do have a couple of concerns.

First, I am a firm believer in the Scriptures and what they say. In fact I believe that it is the infallible Word of God. With that being said I do not believe that God's Word is limited only to the Scriptures and the Scriptures alone. Neither do I believe that the words on the pages are particularly saving in themselves but rather the context, which is the understanding that can only be given through the Holy Spirit. Also it is within this truth that is revealed by the Holy Spirit unto everlasting life that this love for Him is conceived and built into a trusting unshakable faith that continuously renews our hearts daily.

My concerns are that I have seen several posters here that do not believe in this very same way that I do (which is fine) and I wonder if this would be the right place for me. Are there many others here that believe and hold to the Scriptures? I'm not saying that I will not tolerate anything other than this. Not at all. In fact I respect individualism and believe that God has given each and every one of us the liberty and freedom to believe however we wish to believe. Who would I be to think any other way?

I've been having problems finding the right place here because it seems as though every time I write about freedom and liberty through love I am instantly challenged or pounced on. I do not conciser myself an SDA in that I adhere to the fundamental beliefs. I have a problem with certain ones and will not subscribe myself to such a system. However I have many friends that are SDA and I have attended church with them several times but I will not become a member. Many beliefs that I have run parallel with certain SDA pastors that I listen to regularly or read books from such as Herb Montgomery, Graham Maxwell, Timothy R. Jennings and I also love C.S. Lewis. Now, although Ellen White has written a few uplifting and edifying books (such as "The Desire of Ages") I do not by any stretch of the imagination believe that she was a prophetess.

I personally keep the Sabbath but not out of commandment to do so, I do it out of love and remembrance of the Creator recognizing that He is the one that made all of us and a workman is due his reward. We are his workmanship so because of this I remember Him on the Sabbath by love and not by commandment. No one can say to the one they love that they are only with them out of duty, obligation and commandment. How well would that be received? Yet it is sad that the Lord has to hear this far too often. We are with the ones we love because we love them. We do the things we do for them because we want to show them our love and to me, God deserves much, much more.

So my concern is that of respect. I will respect the individuals here that do not hold Scripture to be divinely inspired because that is the freedom you have been given from God and my love for liberty is as great as my love for God. "Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty." (2 Corinthians 3:17) Especially considering "God is Love" (1 John 4:8) and with love comes liberty. I only ask for the same respect back because I know nothing in and of myself but through the the Word of God. This will be a constant theme of mine to quote Scripture once in a while so I don't want to start off on the wrong foot with some who might somehow take offense to my believe in the authority of the Scriptures. I want you to know exactly where I am coming from right off the bat. I also do not bring this up for reason of a debate or contention but only for the sake of peace and respect of liberties. Feel free to read my testimony of Jesus Christ and may God bless you and bring you peace!

-Pepper

Pepper, welcome... you will not offend if you choose to discuss issues using the bible as your point of reference, however I hope you choose not to be offended if not all share your point of view or don't hold the bible as authoritative as you do.... Look forward to your participation!!

 

[Laodicean]

Hello, Pepper -- nice name. Maybe you will spice up this forum a bit

Don't worry about what people will think about your position on the Bible. This forum is tolerant of varying views, and is open to discussion from all sides.

For my part, I consider the Bible to be authoritative, even though it was written by men. Because holy men were moved by the Holy Spirit to record their inspirations, I respect their writings as being as close to the truth about God as I could ever wish to find. So when there are texts that don't make sense to me, I don't discard them or pick and choose among them. I accept every single text as a reflection, some more obscure than others, of a truth about God. Instead of doubting the authority or veracity of any part of Scripture, I instead regard the hard-to-understand portions as a challenge to be wrestled with, through prayer, until understanding is gained.

So I suppose, with that attitude, you could say that I do consider the Bible to be the infallible word of God, once I can dig past the expressions of men and reach the message behind the words of holy men who have been inspired by God.

Does this make sense? That I can say that the Bible is not written by God, and yet it is the infallible word of God?

I suppose a relevant question for those who don't view the Bible this way is: What is the basis for holding the sources that you hold as authoritative?

My basis is that the Bible's fulfilled prophecies reveal a supernatural influence, and therefore I accept its writings as authoritative.

 

[StormyOne]

Why is it important to you Lao that person has a reason why certain sources are authoritative? Is it true, is it provable? If it cannot be proven, if its questionable as far as it being true, then it may not be credible.... However, I am okay with people not having a reason for believing what they believe....

 

[Laodicean]

Why is it important to you Lao that person has a reason why certain sources are authoritative? Is it true, is it provable? If it cannot be proven, if its questionable as far as it being true, then it may not be credible.... However, I am okay with people not having a reason for believing what they believe....

Stormy, the reason why it is important to me that I have a reason for what I believe is that I've been around educated nonbelievers, especially scientists, who routinely dismiss any statement of belief that is based only on blind faith. They accuse such a person as a believer in flying pink elephants and magical thinking, and as a result, that person carries no weight with them in a serious discussion.

It's fine to say, "My faith is enough for me, and I don't need to explain it to anyone else." But we do want to be able to communicate with nonbelieving thinkers in such a way as to share what we consider to be valuable to us. So just saying firmly and with conviction that "I believe" is not sufficient in those settings where we would like to interact on a level that commands a certain degree of respect.

 

[VictorC]

I have been reading this Progressive/Moderate Adventists faith group for the past couple of weeks. It seems to be relatively active but only by a handful. Is this group growing or has it always been a steady stream of regular posters? Anyway, everyone seems very nice and friendly here however I do have a couple of concerns.

This is a unique closet that has over time received attention from a wide audience, but it is typical that most don't remain here. The range of topics here aren't all that varied, so a lot of people go to the General Theology area for more action. I am taking more time away from the forum, and so I just look at a few things here on occasion - so I'm not "typical".

First, I am a firm believer in the Scriptures and what they say. In fact I believe that it is the infallible Word of God. With that being said I do not believe that God's Word is limited only to the Scriptures and the Scriptures alone. Neither do I believe that the words on the pages are particularly saving in themselves but rather the context, which is the understanding that can only be given through the Holy Spirit. Also it is within this truth that is revealed by the Holy Spirit unto everlasting life that this love for Him is conceived and built into a trusting unshakable faith that continuously renews our hearts daily.

My own view is that the Scriptures we have present a coherent message over a long passage of time, and the goal of the entire narrative is so singular in conclusion that it has become obvious to me that there is only One Author behind them. I find the Bible reliable and its Source of inspiration as well.

I've been having problems finding the right place here because it seems as though every time I write about freedom and liberty through love I am instantly challenged or pounced on. I do not conciser myself an SDA in that I adhere to the fundamental beliefs. I have a problem with certain ones and will not subscribe myself to such a system. However I have many friends that are SDA and I have attended church with them several times but I will not become a member. Many beliefs that I have run parallel with certain SDA pastors that I listen to regularly or read books from such as Herb Montgomery, Graham Maxwell, Timothy R. Jennings and I also love C.S. Lewis. Now, although Ellen White has written a few uplifting and edifying books (such as "The Desire of Ages") I do not by any stretch of the imagination believe that she was a prophetess.

Perhaps the reason you're having a hard time finding the right place is because you're still absorbing information from a broad spectrum and finding reason to question the information you're getting. That happens a lot here, so maybe this is the right place to hang your hat for a spell. Regarding the liberty that you affirm (I agree) as the goal of the Christian faith, I would be interested in your thoughts concerning a short passage that appears in Matthew 17:24-26:

24 ¶ When they had come to Capernaum, those who received the temple tax came to Peter and said, "Does your Teacher not pay the temple tax?"
25 He said, "Yes." And when he had come into the house, Jesus anticipated him, saying, "What do you think, Simon? From whom do the kings of the earth take customs or taxes, from their sons or from strangers?"
26 Peter said to Him, "From strangers." Jesus said to him, "Then the sons are free".

From this passage the summary of the Gospel that appears in Galatians 4:1-7 takes on a new light. It is God's story of redemption that is presented here, and Matthew's account portrays a certain sovereignty over the created law that the Giver of that law enjoys because of His superiority over it as its Creator. That same sovereignty is enjoyed by His adopted children. That is the legal basis for the liberty we have.

I personally keep the Sabbath but not out of commandment to do so, I do it out of love and remembrance of the Creator recognizing that He is the one that made all of us and a workman is due his reward. We are his workmanship so because of this I remember Him on the Sabbath by love and not by commandment. No one can say to the one they love that they are only with them out of duty, obligation and commandment. How well would that be received? Yet it is sad that the Lord has to hear this far too often. We are with the ones we love because we love them. We do the things we do for them because we want to show them our love and to me, God deserves much, much more.

I don't think God's message for us stopped at the last page of Revelation. The narrative woven over time is continuing even now. The question concerning God's rest that we have entered versus the sabbath many of us perceive was designed to lead us to rages on, and addressing it will lead the individual to a greater understanding of God's redemption. If we all met on Saturday there would be no need to grapple with the topic, and we would be cheated of an education I think God has designed into the fabric of Hisstory.

This will be a constant theme of mine to quote Scripture once in a while so I don't want to start off on the wrong foot with some who might somehow take offense to my believe in the authority of the Scriptures.

Quote Scripture as liberally as you want It was given to us for a reason!

 

[Hotpepper]

Hi HP,

I believe the Bible is infallible in its original language but much can be said about translations.

I completely agree. Although I don't think the translations are an insidious attempt to pervert God's Word. (I know that isn't what you are saying either) unfortunately our English language is completely inferior compared to the much fuller Greek whereas it sometimes takes five or more English words (sometimes a couple of paragraphs) to define one Greek work. However the complexity of certain idioms and phrases in the Greek language can be troublesome for even the most educated scholar. With that being said it is most beneficial to not only educate one's self in the language but also to cross reference passages with as many translations as possible, as well a study the translator's footnotes. I prefer using Bible cc and NETBible (footnotes galore!!) among many other tools. We are truly blessed in our day and age to have so much information and many tools available to us.

I believe the Bible has the ability to make one wise for salvation, if that is the purpose for which they read it. The reason for this is because they point to Jesus but many people who read the Bible don't want Jesus.

I certainly agree with you again, even Satan knows the Word of God as evident in Matthew 4:5-6 when he used the Scripture of Psalm 91:11-12 in order to try to tempt Jesus.

"For he will command his angels concerning you to guard you in all your ways; they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone." Psalm 91:11-12 NIV

Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. "If you are the Son of God," he said, "throw yourself down. For it is written: " 'He will command his angels concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.' " Matthew 4:5-6 NIV

What is fascinating is that Satan looks as though He left out something according to the NIV, NASB, ESV and KJV if you compare Matthew 4:5-6 and Psalm 91:11-12 in each of these bibles as well as the Greek. Notice that "to guard you in all your ways" or in the KJV "to keep thee in all thy ways" (which means the same thing) is missing in what Satan says. However the NLT states that Satan only leaves out "wherever you go" only when in comparison:

"For he will order his angels to protect you wherever you go. They will hold you up with their hands so you won’t even hurt your foot on a stone." Psalm 91:11-12

"Then the devil took him to the holy city, Jerusalem, to the highest point of the Temple, and said, “If you are the Son of God, jump off! For the Scriptures say, ‘He will order his angels to protect you. And they will hold you up with their hands so you won’t even hurt your foot on a stone." Matthew 4:5-6

Do I think this was insidious by the translators of the NLT?Of course not. However was it a mistake? Yes, because to leave out "guard you" or "protect you" shows that Satan was twisting the meaning or context of the passage to fit better with his plans to have Jesus "throw himself" down or "jump off!". Why would God in the flesh need guarding or protection from Himself? He wouldn't that is ridiculous and it is precisely why Satan conveniently left it out.

I am not picking on the NLT here in any way whatsoever because all translations have errors and not just the NLT only. But has God preserved His Word to be infallible by allowing so many ways to cross examine the Scriptures throughout the ages? Definately. I've discovered that no translation is really better than the other. There were literally hundreds of thousands of manuscripts with mainly four different text types, variants, from different geological areas, different eras, some are "literal" translations (formal equivalency), some are "meaning" translations (dynamic equivalency) and almost all of them differ in some way or another.

There also was a time period when the "expansion of piety" took place during the 11th century when the Byzantine text type became "fuller". Fuller in the sense of "adding to" the name "Jesus" (for instance) in areas for sake of reverence. So instead of "Jesus" they would write "Lord Jesus Christ" instead out of zealous piety. These Byzantine text types exploded in mass production mostly because the writing material was cheaper than the costly animal skins and ink that only scribes used previously (which put pressure on them not to make as many mistakes). So during this explosion of production and expansion of piety the layman could copy for himself his relative's or friend's hand written copy of only certain sections of the bible. They were not as fortunate as we are today having a complete bible... and of course to err is human so if one person made a mistake and gave it to his buddy he would copy that mistake exactly and perhaps make another mistake somewhere else and so on.

Imagine how this branched out across the land. What is spectacular is that most of them, although differing here and there, are remarkably similar. However the several older more ancient manuscripts that were more durable and lasted longer than the papyrus are the closest to each other. Our modern versions use the "meaning" way of translation and use the Alexandrian text type, while the KJV uses the "literal" way of translation using the Byzantine (later produced) text type following after the majority of the manuscripts thus the "Majority Text".

Regardless of all this, it is obvious that throughout the thousands of years there has been suspect of fraudulent translations. This actually worked in the favor of the infallible Word of God by having it re-translated repeatedly into many different ways throughout history. In this very way, God preserved His Word to be infallible by allowing so many ways to cross examine the Scriptures throughout the ages because even though there were variations, the meaning has never changed taken in the light of the thousands of manuscripts that have spread into many branches of copies and copies of copies and re-translations across the world. It is really quite amazing. There was never anytime in history that one specific man or governing system could change these Scriptures because they were uncontainable by the love and faith of those that preceded us. Most of them gave their lives willingly rather than to turn over their precious manuscripts. Even throughout the many persecutions of the church by Nero or during the medieval ages these manuscripts were buried and hidden to protect them from such evil men.

I too believe, as you do, that God's grace has set us free from the condemning aspect of the Law on stone with it's outward influence on the actions of sinful man but I don't believe we have been set free to break the Law.

Amen.

"This is how we know we are God's children, we love God and keep his commandments. For this demonstrates our love for God. We keep his commandments and his commandments are not difficult because everyone who is born from God has overcome the world." 1 John 5:2-4

 

[Hotpepper]

Pepper, welcome... you will not offend if you choose to discuss issues using the bible as your point of reference, however I hope you choose not to be offended if not all share your point of view or don't hold the bible as authoritative as you do.... Look forward to your participation!!

Not a problem!

 

[Hotpepper]

Hello, Pepper -- nice name. Maybe you will spice up this forum a bit

Haha!

For my part, I consider the Bible to be authoritative, even though it was written by men. Because holy men were moved by the Holy Spirit to record their inspirations, I respect their writings as being as close to the truth about God as I could ever wish to find. So when there are texts that don't make sense to me, I don't discard them or pick and choose among them. I accept every single text as a reflection, some more obscure than others, of a truth about God. Instead of doubting the authority or veracity of any part of Scripture, I instead regard the hard-to-understand portions as a challenge to be wrestled with, through prayer, until understanding is gained.

So I suppose, with that attitude, you could say that I do consider the Bible to be the infallible word of God, once I can dig past the expressions of men and reach the message behind the words of holy men who have been inspired by God.

Does this make sense? That I can say that the Bible is not written by God, and yet it is the infallible word of God?

This makes perfect sense to me. I also believe that the writers themselves were inspired. I believe that the author of the Scriptures was God Himself through His faithful by the Holy Spirit

 

[Laodicean]

Pepper, I've read through your blogs and enjoyed your perspective. Those are some very difficult topics, and I value your reasoning. Thank you.

 

[Hotpepper]

Perhaps the reason you're having a hard time finding the right place is because you're still absorbing information from a broad spectrum and finding reason to question the information you're getting. That happens a lot here....

Well, in a lot of ways it has to do with my history in which I am not proud. By this I am referring to the picture of who I believed God was. The Lord revealed Himself to me through His Word. But it wasn't by the words that are on the pages. For years I knew Scripture and could recite many passages by memory. I read my bible nearly every day for years. I guess you could even say the the scribes and pharisees in Jesus' day knew the Scriptures like the back of their hands. In this way (not like the back of my hand) I knew the bible and I knew verses but I had no idea of who God was.

God revealed Himself to me but it was only after I came to a point in my life that I was broken. It was when I threw every single one of my beliefs out forever and started back over from scratch with only the Gospel of Christ as the foundation. I declared to Him that I never truly knew Him and it was apparent by how deep I was in this pit of death and sin. I asked Him to show me who He really was and told Him I was willing to renew my entire mind and heart and throw away every belief and sinful thing out of my life, and I did that day. I thought to myself just before I started reading my bible "who are you God? Please show me..."

God is love, I thought, according to 1 John 4:8 but what does that mean? I've read and heard this a million times and I always thought it was a little corny when someone said it. This time I thought about it in a different light and thought "what does that mean?" What is love? If I could find that out, I would know who God was... I randomly opened my bible and began to read. I felt a rush throughout my whole body as it filled with LOVE when my heart took in 1 Corinthians 13:4-8. I had read it a thousand times over before, throughout the years, and even had it memorized at one point in my life. However this time it was different. This time I was looking at God Himself. I felt like a conduit. Like I had grabbed a hold of a live electrical wire but instead of pain and electricity flowing in and out of me, it was contentment and love flowing to me and back to God. I nearly fainted but the awe and surprise, actually shock, kept me from doing so. I looked at the character of Jesus in the bible who was the exact likeness of His Father and the context or "understanding" of the scriptures hit me like a indescribable force.

so maybe this is the right place to hang your hat for a spell.

I sure hope so. I don't think I've ever had such a warm welcome in any other place. I sure do appreciate it!

Regarding the liberty that you affirm (I agree) as the goal of the Christian faith, I would be interested in your thoughts concerning a short passage that appears in Matthew 17:24-26:

24 ¶ When they had come to Capernaum, those who received the temple tax came to Peter and said, "Does your Teacher not pay the temple tax?"
25 He said, "Yes." And when he had come into the house, Jesus anticipated him, saying, "What do you think, Simon? From whom do the kings of the earth take customs or taxes, from their sons or from strangers?"
26 Peter said to Him, "From strangers." Jesus said to him, "Then the sons are free".

From this passage the summary of the Gospel that appears in Galatians 4:1-7 takes on a new light. It is God's story of redemption that is presented here, and Matthew's account portrays a certain sovereignty over the created law that the Giver of that law enjoys because of His superiority over it as its Creator. That same sovereignty is enjoyed by His adopted children. That is the legal basis for the liberty we have.

I think you nailed it. I never really thought about this but I'm glad you showed it to me. I learn something new everyday.

God bless

 

[Hotpepper]

Pepper, I've read through your blogs and enjoyed your perspective. Those are some very difficult topics, and I value your reasoning. Thank you.

Thank you Lao. All of that would have been completely different six months ago. I thank God everyday that He pulled me out of the place I was before. Extremist hyper-Calvinism. Would you ever have guessed that?

 

[AzA]

I have been reading this Progressive/Moderate Adventists faith group for the past couple of weeks. It seems to be relatively active but only by a handful. Is this group growing or has it always been a steady stream of regular posters?

...

My concerns are that I have seen several posters here that do not believe in this very same way that I do (which is fine) and I wonder if this would be the right place for me.

Hey, Hotpepper! There's a core of regular posters but the core varies over time.
There are also occasional flybys and visitors. The door is open.

This was designed to be an open space as far as general site rules allow. We also try to self-regulate.

Thanks for posting and hope to see you round.
AzA

 

[Hotpepper]

Hey, Hotpepper! There's a core of regular posters but the core varies over time.
There are also occasional flybys and visitors. The door is open.

This was designed to be an open space as far as general site rules allow. We also try to self-regulate.

Thanks for posting and hope to see you round.
AzA

Thanks AzA for the welcome. Does the NF|NT have something to do with Jung / Myers Briggs ? - just curious

 

[VictorC]

I think you nailed it. I never really thought about this but I'm glad you showed it to me. I learn something new everyday.

Proverbs 27:17 is inspiration for meaningful discussion: "As iron sharpens iron, So a man sharpens the countenance of his friend."

 

[AzA]

Thanks AzA for the welcome. Does the NF|NT have something to do with Jung / Myers Briggs ? - just curious

Yes... funny -- someone else asked me that yesterday too.
I'm interested in various modes of dealing with information, and use as many as I can as appropriate.

 

[Hotpepper]

Yes... funny -- someone else asked me that yesterday too.
I'm interested in various modes of dealing with information, and use as many as I can as appropriate.

I am at my best when I'm thinking to myself without distraction. I also think that the importance of as much outside information as possible (within the boundaries of morality) is essential to be able to apply any thought or idea as coming close to concrete. However the concreteness is never completely set as long as there lingers the infinite possibility of more information.

Well I'm sure with that being said you've probably figured out that I am an INTP hehe!

 

[Laodicean]

Yes... funny -- someone else asked me that yesterday too.
I'm interested in various modes of dealing with information, and use as many as I can as appropriate.

There was a time in my life when my feelings ruled me, seriously ruled. And it didn't help that I fell into the introversion category, either. I do think I'm still perceptive, but I'm betting if I were to take the MBTI today, I'd score much differently. In other words, I think -- no, I know I've changed. I don't know what I'd be classified as anymore.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

First, I am a firm believer in the Scriptures and what they say.

Hi, Pepper. Welcome! I sense that all of us are in agreement on this point.

In fact I believe that it is the infallible Word of God.

I lean in this same direction too. This is a subject that is often debated here.

I've been having problems finding the right place here because it seems as though every time I write about freedom and liberty through love I am instantly challenged or pounced on.

If you don't also emphasize the crucial role of obedience, there are some who will certainly pounce. I won't be one of them. I believe that faith expressed through love is what matters most.

I do not conciser myself an SDA in that I adhere to the fundamental beliefs. I have a problem with certain ones and will not subscribe myself to such a system.

I sympathize. I am a former SDA.

I personally keep the Sabbath but not out of commandment to do so, I do it out of love and remembrance of the Creator recognizing that He is the one that made all of us and a workman is due his reward.

Just curious. How is your sabbath behavior different than your behavior on other days?

Hope to hear more from you!
BFA