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I don't think that Paul's teaching about women being silent in the congregation, applies
to anything but teaching, and prophesying in the congregation.
No.Doesn't that mean that women sin when they sing hymns in church, or hymns that have the Alto and Soprano parts (which are women's voices) are in that regard heretical?
When women are kept in silence, it does not mean she is silent in everything. There’s a context you have to find out. The context is what she has to be silence about. The context is (in verse 12) when it comes to authority over a man. The woman cannot have an authority where she is in charge of a man. Why? Because of the curse from God. Look at verse 13 (Tim) and 34 (Cor). What did God curse Eve? She is supposed to be in subjection to her husband.Doesn't that mean that women sin when they sing hymns in church, or hymns that have the Alto and Soprano parts (which are women's voices) are in that regard heretical?
It doesn't say "have authority over a man", it says "snatch authority from a man".The context is (in verse 12) when it comes to authority over a man.
You mean like Deborah - the God appointed judge who ruled the nation - did?The woman cannot have an authority where she is in charge of a man.
Her husband - yes; every man everywhere - no.Why? Because of the curse from God. Look at verse 13 (Tim) and 34 (Cor). What did God curse Eve? She is supposed to be in subjection to her husband.
No, it doesn't.it does mean in the public worship of the church these things are set down as God’s standards.
Yet Priscilla taught a male disciple; Apollos.Paul wrote Titus and instructed him on the role women had as teachers to other women.
Some can still do that; some of us don't have children so cannot teach others about theirs.3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
I agree. Do they mean any different?It doesn't say "have authority over a man", it says "snatch authority from a man".
Deborah was an incredible woman and like you said she was appointed by God. She was appointed during a time where men were cowards. God can just call about anyone for his purposes. Mary took the good news to the disciples but she was sent as an "ambassador" rather than a pastor.You mean like Deborah - the God appointed judge who ruled the nation - did?
How is preaching God's word snatching authority from a man? Jesus chose Mary Magdalene to take the Good News to his male disciples.
I don't deny that women can preach. The context is preaching in the setting of a church, setting doctrinal standards, as women are more prone to being deceived.Yet Priscilla taught a male disciple; Apollos.
Yes, I know she was with her husband but a) it's quite possible she could have done some of the teaching herself, and b) if women CAN teach when with their husbands, that implies that some women can be preachers.
Yes - "usurp" means to snatch, or grab, using force.I agree. Do they mean any different?
That is the standard response to Deborah's leadership, certainly. But God can call whoever he pleases - Gideon wasn't exactly full of faith when he was called.Deborah was an incredible woman and like you said she was appointed by God. She was appointed during a time where men were cowards.
Doesn't matter. She was chosen to be the first witness to the resurrection, told to go into a room full of men, tell them what she had seen and give them a message. She was teaching them - "Jesus is alive" - and telling them what to do - "go to Jerusalem". Both of which are, apparently, not allowed.Mary took the good news to the disciples but she was sent as an "ambassador" rather than a pastor.
ALL believers are the church.I don't deny that women can preach. The context is preaching in the setting of a church,
You realise that Eve hadn't been created when God gave Adam the command about not eating from the tree?1 Tim 2:11-1411 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
Eve is one with Adam, taken from man, so they are not two, they are one.You realise that Eve hadn't been created when God gave Adam the command about not eating from the tree?
That we are not told that Eve heard the command directly from God?
That when she repeated the command to the serpent, she got it wrong, Genesis 2:17, Genesis 3:17?
That in the NT women were not allowed to learn, yet Paul says "LET the women learn"?
That if someone knows something, because they have been taught, it is far harder to deceive them?
Besides, not allowing women to preach/be in leadership because Eve was deceived, makes no sense.
Adam wasn't deceived; he deliberately disobeyed God. So men should be disqualified from teaching. Who wants a teacher/preacher who has heard God speak, knows his will but deliberately disobeys him?
Whether it's "have" or "usurp" , the outcome of it places them in a position of authority over their man.It doesn't say "have authority over a man", it says "snatch authority from a man".
Yes God can call whoever he wishes - even a donkey. That does not warrant animals a place in our congregation, does it?That is the standard response to Deborah's leadership, certainly. But God can call whoever he pleases - Gideon wasn't exactly full of faith when he was called.
She was personally and specifically called by Jesus. I agree, she should do what was asked in that situation. What happens when there is no calling? Was that not why Paul laid down the rules for the church to adhere to?Doesn't matter. She was chosen to be the first witness to the resurrection, told to go into a room full of men, tell them what she had seen and give them a message. She was teaching them - "Jesus is alive" - and telling them what to do - "go to Jerusalem". Both of which are, apparently, not allowed.
Doesn't matter, 1 Tim 2:11-14 still applies.ALL believers are the church.
Christians who meet in Bible study groups, coffee shops, Christian Unions, fresh expressions of church etc - are church.
Source?That in the NT women were not allowed to learn,
Again, it's not about denying women the rights to be in leadership, the context is in a position of authority over men.Besides, not allowing women to preach/be in leadership because Eve was deceived, makes no sense.
Adam wasn't deceived; he deliberately disobeyed God. So men should be disqualified from teaching. Who wants a teacher/preacher who has heard God speak, knows his will but deliberately disobeys him?
It's a big difference. The verse says "I [Paul] do not allow a woman to usurp authority over a man".Whether it's "have" or "usurp" , the outcome of it places them in a position of authority over their man.
Yes - and the message that he gave through that donkey was valid and authoritative.Yes God can call whoever he wishes - even a donkey.
No one - man, woman or child - should assume to do something if there is no calling from God.She was personally and specifically called by Jesus. I agree, she should do what was asked in that situation. What happens when there is no calling?
According to your interpretation.Doesn't matter, 1 Tim 2:11-14 still applies.
Several commentaries.Source?
That's the argument though; women can't preach because Eve was deceived. That's why those verses are quoted.Again, it's not about denying women the rights to be in leadership, the context is in a position of authority over men.
Deborah and Esther have nothing to do with this. You are assuming Paul had them in mind when writing down this verse. You cannot usurp authority if you do not "have" desire to do so in the first place.It's a big difference. The verse says "I [Paul] do not allow a woman to usurp authority over a man".
As a Jew, Paul was well aware that Deborah had been judge over the whole nation. He also knew that Esther had been a queen and used her influence (beauty, actually) to persuade the king to change his mind and not slaughter the Jews. They still celebrate this each year - the feast of Purim.
How is preaching God's word usurping authority from a man?
Yes when God calls, it overrides everything else, but that's only when He calls. We cannot use the examples of a few isolated cases of women called by God in the OT and apply it to every woman.Yes - and the message that he gave through that donkey was valid and authoritative.
Ditto with all those who are called by him. Including women.
Exactly, so we have to be very prudent.No one - man, woman or child - should assume to do something if there is no calling from God.
That is not the case for the female preachers I know - including myself.
As explained above, God has the authority to override everything.That's the argument though; women can't preach because Eve was deceived. That's why those verses are quoted.
You even drew attention to the fact of her deception.
And, again, the verse does not say they cannot "be in a position of authority over" - otherwise God contradicted himself because he appointed Deborah. The verse says "cannot usurp authority over". And it's Paul who says that he doesn't allow it - he is not in a position to object.
No, I'm saying that if Paul was writing a command from God that women shouldn't have authority over men, that would contradict the fact that God called Deborah to be judge over the nation.Deborah and Esther have nothing to do with this. You are assuming Paul had them in mind when writing down this verse.
If God thought those roles "belonged" to men, he wouldn't call some women, and give them the gifts, to do them.It's when women take on roles in church that belong to men, like being a pastor/teacher.
I never said that every woman is called to be a pastor/teacher.Yes when God calls, it overrides everything else, but that's only when He calls. We cannot use the examples of a few isolated cases of women called by God in the OT and apply it to every woman.
And we are.Exactly, so we have to be very prudent.
But he will not override, or contradict, his word.As explained above, God has the authority to override everything.
Deborah and Esther have nothing to do with this. You are assuming Paul had them in mind when writing down this verse. You cannot usurp authority if you do not "have" desire to do so in the first place.
Please note that women's preaching has nothing to do with usurping authority. It's when women take on roles in church that belong to men, like being a pastor/teacher. Paul is not forbidding them from teaching in other appropriate conditions or circumstances
Yes when God calls, it overrides everything else, but that's only when He calls. We cannot use the examples of a few isolated cases of women called by God in the OT and apply it to every woman.
Exactly, so we have to be very prudent.
As explained above, God has the authority to override everything.
There can't be evidence in the Bible, which was compiled hundreds of years ago, of what God is doing today.No scriptural evidence for that.
The pastoral role is exclusively for men only as outlined in the bible.But there is plenty of evidence that God called women to serve him - even in positions of authority - and as prophetesses, a judge, a queen.
It isn't - and never was.The pastoral role is exclusively for men only as outlined in the bible.
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