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Homosexuals and Bisexuals

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Shane Roach

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Sometimes men and women get together and can't have babies, but they still love each other want to commit themselves to each other in marriage.

And the law lets them do that.

Because the nature of marriage is that it happens before sex. The fact that you have broken that does not mean that this is not the function of marriage, it merely means you have undermined it.


All granted on the basis of a thousands of years old understanding about the uniqueness of the relationship between a man and wife. Under your new and invented form of "marriage", the very terms "husband" and "wife" become ambiguous, and close to meaningless.


There is no "modern" institution of marriage. Much of the reason why some of what you say is reflected in reality at all is because people just like yourself in the past have made arguments just like these.

The results have been increased divorce, increased single motherhood, decreased surety that we can know who the father of a given child is, decreased stability for kids, increased problems for our young, and dozens of other documented negative results of the deterioration of the understanding of the family as exactly what it is, always has been, and always will be -- the union of men and women to have their own kids and raise them.

Gays cannot engage in this institution, and do not uniquely therefore deserve all the benefits you describe, nor the responsibilities.
 
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David Brider

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Do you ever intend to tell us what behaviour you think homosexuality consists of, or are you just going to keep copy & pasting that non-answer?

David.
 
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beechy

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Because the nature of marriage is that it happens before sex. The fact that you have broken that does not mean that this is not the function of marriage, it merely means you have undermined it.
Despite your vehement assertions to the contrary, there is absolutely no evidence that modern civil marriage laws presume or require that a couple will have children at all, let alone through procreation as opposed to any other means.

What is the legal signifiance of the terms "husband" and "wife" which make it important that they not be collapsed into a single term, "spouse"?


There is no "modern" institution of marriage. Much of the reason why some of what you say is reflected in reality at all is because people just like yourself in the past have made arguments just like these.
At what point in history should marriage laws have stopped evolving? Shall we revert back to ancient Greece? They seem to be on board with the procreation thing. They also required the bride to marry whomever her father or guardian chose, whether she liked it or not. ("Girls in Athens were normally married soon after puberty to men who were typically in their late twenties or early thirties. Her father or other guardian provided the dowry and arranged the match.") See also: ("The bride's father, as her legal guardian, had the power to make [the betrothal pledge] without consulting his daughter, and she did not need to be present for the engye. Under ideal circumstances she could have no preferences in the choice of a groom, since the segregation of the sexes in ancient Greece would have provided her with little opportunity to come into contact with men.)

I agree that couples should be encouraged to create and maintain strong, lasting family units. I disagree that this provides a legitimate reason to exclude homosexual couples from marriage and the benefits and responsibilities they would concomitantly receive for themselves and their children.
 
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FlamingFemme

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I've been reading the last dozen pages or so, and (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) you seem to be saying that a gay couple with children is not a family, but a straight couple with children is.
Why? What, exactly, is so fundamentally different between my family - which consists of me, my wife, and our daughter - and a man/woman couple with a child?
And, if there isn't a fundamental difference, please stop saying that my family (and, in turn, any other family headed by a gay couple) is not a family.
 
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Wyzaard

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Can you prove that God does not exist?

I need not demonstrate the nonexistence of anything that has not been shown to exist.

Can you prove how the earth was created?

Cosmological models are fairly well confirmed...

Can you prove evolution?

... as are biological ones. Look them up on your own.

The facts are, No you cannot... Everything you present will be ideas, not proven fact, and there is no proven facts, just circumstantial evidence.

Well-confirmed empirical models are not assemblages of 'circumstantial evidence'.

There are far too many species of insects, mamals, fowl, fish, plant life, etc., to ever evolve from the same one cell life. Even scientist believe there was an instant explosion of life...

Study up, and then get back to us.

TalkOrigins Archive: Exploring the Creation/Evolution Controversy
 
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Wyzaard

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Socialists simply do not want us to be able to self govern in this matter any more...


If you were really interested in self-governance, you would be a libertarian; what you ACTUALLY espouse is a flavor of totalitarianism... the state exacting invasive control over the bodies of the citizenry.

Good thing the Supreme Court has recognized the horrors that come from governments dictating to people when and how they may procreate.
 
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Skaloop

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More semantic games. A person who exhibits punctuality is a person who is punctual. Same concept. Punctuality is a behavior -- the behavior of being habitually on time.

A person who exhibits homosexuality is a person who is homosexual. Homosexuality is a behavior -- the behavior of _________________.

Could you fill in that blank for me, please?
 
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CraigBaugher

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So once we put aside your name calling, and your side step dance, your answer is no... You acknowledge there is no proof, just accepted ideas...
 
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SiderealExalt

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So once we put aside your name calling, and your side step dance, your answer is no... You acknowledge there is no proof, just accepted ideas...

In much the same way a person falling from the top of a three story building acknowledges there is no proof of the theory of gravity, just the accepted idea of the theory of gravity as supported by accurate information , experimentation and corroborated evidence.

If on the other hand you seem to want to push the notion and dive straight into relativism. Then I suppose if you and I are looking at a red car. And you say, "Hey look, a blue car!" and I say, " No you dope, it's a red car." Then both our statements are true, as what constitutes red is simply an accepted idea of language.

The irony of people who believe in "One true religion." engaging in these levels of relativism to dismiss scientific realities that contradict their world view boggles me.
 
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Philothei

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The irony of people who believe in "One true religion." engaging in these levels of relativism to dismiss scientific realities that contradict their world view boggles me.
How are the "religious" people engage in relativism? I think it is the other way around. Those who are relativists engage in 'theories' not yet "proven" and drow conclusions without even a trace...of available data ...

example what you call "homosexual family" that the findings are so rare and recent that no one truly can affirm that children are going to come out okay...The relativism is all with those who aspouse that new "idea of family" since in the recorded history no such data exists!! Talkig about experimentation...hmmmm
 
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CraigBaugher

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Really dude... like, the biologist dudes, have like, ideas, but they can't prove anything dude... really...
 
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SiderealExalt

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How are the "religious" people engage in relativism? I think it is the other way around. Those who are relativists engage in 'theories' not yet "proven" and drow conclusions without even a trace...of available data ...
Craig is, as in, he specifically is and others do as well.

Point A. Do you actually know what a SCIENTIFIC theory is. The term you are describing with, "engage in theories not yet proven." shows you are thinking of the term, "hypothesis." Which in layman's terms is often referred to as a theory. But is your misuse or lack of understanding over scientific terminology science's fault? I seriously doubt it. And what you are describing barely qualifies as a scientific hypothesis because that involves making an EDUCATED guess using already established information in order to form that hypothesis. Which is then tested. Come on now, this is basic high school science, and I'm not that old so apparently the public education system still apparently works now and then.

This mass of sentences does not make sense. Seriously, it's like you read my post, didn't actually understand any of it(are you even familiar with the concept of relativism?). Said, "Argh he's saying bad stuff bout religious people...I think." And just posted anything to sound snarky.
Really dude... like, the biologist dudes, have like, ideas, but they can't prove anything dude... really...
So basically you're unwilling to go through the actual trouble of studying?
 
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Shane Roach

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A person who exhibits homosexuality is a person who is homosexual. Homosexuality is a behavior -- the behavior of _________________.

Could you fill in that blank for me, please?

Having sex with someone of the same gender.

As to this science related stuff, moral relativism is not related to science. Also, there's a fairly simple end around for Christians to be moral relativists.

A. All moral values are opinions.
b. God has moral values.
c. God communicates His values to people.
d. God's values do not change.
e. Even though moral values are relative, God will preserve His own. The others will pass away.

The point is largely irrelevant.

In any event, you'll note there is still silence on the issue of the nature of consciousness. Show me your consciousness, and I will then accept that there is something unusual or uniquely unobserved about God. Otherwise, I am convinced that after acknowledging that I myself have this quality, that it is illogical to assume that others do not have it, or that there may not be truth to portions great or small of many religions or even the entirety of one.

Further study and thought has led me where I am today. It's not even mildly illogical. It's a more complete view of the world and the nature of mankind that any that pretends to explain things that are not explained, and it does not require me to hold too tightly to the probability of things that frankly are currently beyond our ability to thoroughly research, i.e. claims to know the source of the universe, all of life's diversity, and so forth.
 
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