So general. What if we are and in accepting our weekness we desire to help others? Hmmm....
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The context is that most who are anti-gay, are closeted gays that can't accept their own true sexuality themselves...context.
ok. How is it not relevant?I don't really care how you "see it." It is not picking and choosing. You have not shown how any reference to men shaving has any relevance to the passages I cited, and at least two gay websites categorize, as a condemnation of ALL homosexual acts, according to scripture. I am not aware of any N.T. mandate that men do or do not shave. Men also wore long flowing robes in that era. I know many occupations where that would be a hazard. And a thought just popped into my mind. Beards are a hazard for law enforcement personnel, firemen, military personnel and many others.
Now if you could quote any passages you think are relevant IN CONTEXT and indicate how you think they relate, please do so. Back it up or pack it up!
As I said you have dug yourself into a pit trying to prove somehow that "shaving" or "boy prostitutes" is the main thrust of Clement. And you can't even find any support in the gay community.
[SIZE=-1]ok. How is it not relevant?
Which scripture is used to bring up the whole topic of Clement.
When he spoke about shaving, He didn't show how ignoble of gay men to shave. He said how ignoble of men to shave. Context bru.
Which scripture is he basing his arguments on? By any chance is it related to the word "malakoi"? I wonder. I just get the sneaky suspicion that malakoi is referring to men, both straight and gay.[/SIZE]
. . .When early, Greek-speaking homophobic Christians (John Chrysostom and Clemet of Alexandria) condemned homosexuality, they did not use arsenokoitai, even when discussing Cor 6:9 and Tim. 1:10. Arguments from silence are generally weak, but had the word meant homosexuals, Chrysostom and Clemet [sic] would of most likely condemned homosexuals when they commented on Cor. 6:9 or Tim. 1:10. But they did not. This combined with the above discussion of the occurrences of the word, I feel, provide some serious problems for traditionalists.
http://home.wanadoo.nl/inspiritus/The Mystery.htm
Exactly right, context.
The context is that most who are anti-gay, are closeted gays that can't accept their own true sexuality themselves...context.
Your extracts are out of contextIt is your responsibility to show how your so-called evidence relates to a topic. NOT quote one word or a sentence fragment and expect someone else to show it does not.
Tell you what I will post my quotes from Clement again, then you show how your reference to shaving, etc. is relevant. Don't tell me what your "sneaky suspicion," is produce the original language.
And let us not forget these two gay websites agree that Clement condemned ALL homosexual acts.
People with a History presents the history of lesbians, gay men, bisexuals and transgendered people [=LGBT]. It includes hundreds of original texts, discussions, and [soon] images, and addresses LGBT history in all periods, and in all regions of the world.
Clement of Alexandria was a major early Church father. He addressed sexuality in some detail. In this chapter of his work Paidogogus, he discusses effeminate men and masculine women. He is clearly hostile. Nevertheless the passage is interesting for a number of reasons:
Clement gives a lot of information about pathic homosexual activity.
Although he discusses men for the most part, he includes a discussion of female homosexuality as well. There is no question that he has in mind some general notion of "homosexuality" here.
Clement also seems to discuss lesbian marriages.
The last two points play a major role in Bernadette Brooten's book, Love Between Women, (Chicago: 1996). Brooten argues that the marriages referred to by Clement were a real Egyptian social custom, although this is controversial. The book is required for those interested in the period.
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/pwh/clem-ped-3-3.html
Clement of Alexandria The Instructor. [Paedagogus.] Book III [153 - 217 AD]
The fate of the Sodomites was judgment to those who had done wrong, instruction to those who hear. The Sodomites having, through much luxury, fallen into uncleanness, practicing adultery shamelessly, and burning with insane love for boys; the All-seeing Word, whose notice those who commit impieties cannot escape, cast His eye on them. . . .Accordingly, the just punishment of the Sodomites became to men an image of the salvation which is well calculated for men.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf02.vi.iii.iii.html
Clement of Alexandria Exhortation To The Heathen
And what are the laws? Thou shalt not kill; thou shalt not commit adultery; thou shalt not seduce boys; thou shalt not steal; thou shalt not bear false witness; thou shalt love the Lord thy God. And the complements of these are those laws of reason and words of sanctity which are inscribed on mens hearts: Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself; to him who strikes thee on the cheek, present also the other; thou shalt not lust, for by lust alone thou hast committed adultery.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf02.vi.ii.html
Clement of Alexandria The Instructor [Paedagogus] Book 1
But life has reached this pitch of licentiousness through the wantonness of wickedness, and lasciviousness is diffused over the cities, having become law. Beside them women stand in the stews, offering their own flesh for hire for lewd pleasure, and boys, taught to deny their sex, act the part of women. Luxury has deranged all things; it has disgraced man. A luxurious niceness seeks everything, attempts everything, forces everything, coerces nature. Men play the part of women, and women that of men, contrary to nature; women are at once wives and husbands: [Lesbian marriage!] no passage is closed against libidinousness; [i.e. every possible body opening is used for lechery/libidinousness.] and their promiscuous lechery is a public institution, and luxury is domesticated.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf02.vi.iii.i.html
Clement of Alexandria The Instructor - Pedagogos Book 3
Chapter 3
Against Men Who Embellish Themselves
Such was predicted of old, and the result is notorious: the whole earth has now become full of fornication and wickedness. I admire the ancient legislators of the Romans: these detested effeminacy of conduct; and the giving of the body to feminine purposes, contrary to the law of nature, they judged worthy of the extremest penalty, according to the righteousness of the law.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf02.vi.iii.iii.html
[/url]
Do you have further information on this survey?So then you believe that 73% of Christians are gay then?
According to Ellison Research,73% of christianity strongly agree that homosexual activity is a sin. You can click on the attachment at the bottom of this post to see the survey results.
Just so you'll know Ellison Research is a reputable research firm, here is a listing of their clients:
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[SIZE=-1]Your extracts are out of context[/SIZE]
I've already elaborated on one of your links.My post was 658 words, your meaningless reply only 6.
Prove it! You keep repeating "out of context" like a mantra, show me you know what it means and how anything I posted is out of context.
As I have said repeatedly you are in a pit of your own making even homosexual websites contradict you.
. . . [SIZE=-1]
Granted, he refers to sexual immorality, referring to men and boys, and women prostitutes, because they are decking themselves out in this way in order to appeal to their customers. But in now [sic] ways possible does he refer to a loving monogamous homosexual relationship.[/SIZE]
no, my above post was all mine.People with a History presents the history of lesbians, gay men, bisexuals and transgendered people [=LGBT]. It includes hundreds of original texts, discussions, and [soon] images, and addresses LGBT history in all periods, and in all regions of the world.
[SIZE=+1]Clement of Alexandria was a major early Church father. He addressed sexuality in some detail.[/SIZE] In this chapter of his work Paidogogus, he discusses effeminate men and masculine women. [SIZE=+1]He is clearly hostile[/SIZE]. Nevertheless the passage is interesting for a number of reasons:
[SIZE=+1]Clement gives a lot of information about pathic homosexual activity[/SIZE].
Although he discusses men for the most part, he includes a discussion of female homosexuality as well. There is no question that he has in mind some general notion of "homosexuality" here.
[SIZE=+1]Clement also seems to discuss lesbian marriages[/SIZE].
The last two points play a major role in Bernadette Brooten's book, Love Between Women, (Chicago: 1996). Brooten argues that the marriages referred to by Clement were a real Egyptian social custom, although this is controversial. The book is required for those interested in the period.
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/pwh/clem-ped-3-3.htmlClement of Alexandria The Instructor [Paedagogus] Book 1Been doing some checking please tell me you are not so desperate that you are using Morton Smith and his discredited "The Secret Gospel of Mark and Clement."
But life has reached this pitch of licentiousness through the wantonness of wickedness, and lasciviousness is diffused over the cities, having become law. Beside them women stand in the stews, offering their own flesh for hire for lewd pleasure, and boys, taught to deny their sex, act the part of women. Luxury has deranged all things; it has disgraced man. A luxurious niceness seeks everything, attempts everything, forces everything, coerces nature. Men play the part of women, and women that of men, contrary to nature; [SIZE=+1]women are at once wives and husbands: [Lesbian marriage!] [/SIZE]no passage is closed against libidinousness; [i.e. every possible body opening is used for lechery/libidinousness.] and their promiscuous lechery is a public institution, and luxury is domesticated.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf02.vi.iii.i.html
no, my above post was all mine.
My comments were on Clement's effeminate article. Which is not about homosexuality.
A Letter Attributed to Clement of Alexandria
To Theodore.
You did well in silencing the unspeakable teachings of the Carpocrations. For these are "wandering stars" referred to in the prophecy, who wander from the narrow road of the commandments into a boundless abyss of the carnal and bodily sins. For, priding themselves in knowledge, as they say, "of the deep things of Satan, they do not know that they are casting themselves away into "the netherworld of the darkness" of falseness, and boasting that they are free, they have become slaves of servile desires. Such men are to be opposed in all ways and alltogether. For, even if they should say something true, one who loves the truth should not, even so, agree with them. For not all true things are the truth, nor should that truth which merely seems true according to human opinions be prefered to the true truth, that according to the faith.
Now of the things they keep saying about the divinely inspired Gospel according to Mark, some are altogether falsifications, and others, even if they do contain some true elements, nevertheless are not reported truely. For the true things being mixed with inventions, are falsified , so that, as the saying goes, even the salt loses its savor.
As for Mark, then, during Peter`s stay in Rome he wrote an account of the Lord`s doings, not, however, declaring all of them, nor yet hinting at the secret ones, but selecting what he thought most useful for increasing the faith of those who were being instructed. But when Peter died a martyr, Mark came over to Alexandria, bringing both his own notes and those of Peter, from which he transferred to his former books the things suitable to whatever makes for progress toward knowledge. Thus he composed a more spiritual Gospel for the use of those who were being perfected. Nevertheless, he yet did not divulge the things not to be uttered, nor did he write down the hierophantic teaching of the Lord, but to the stories already written he added yet others and, moreover, brought in certain sayings of which he knew the interpretation would, as a mystagogue , lead the hearers into the innermost sanctuary of truth hidden by seven veils. Thus, in sum, he prepared matters, neither grudgingly nor incautionously, in my opinion, and, dying, he left his composition to the church in 1, verso Alexandria, where it even yet is most carefully guarded, being read only to those who are being initated into the great mysteries.
But since the foul demons are always devising destruction for the race of men, Carpocrates, instructed by them and using deceitful arts, so enslaved a certain presbyter of the church in Alexandria that he got from him a copy of the secret Gospel, which he both interpreted according to his blasphemous and carnal doctrine and, moreover, polluted, mixing with the spotless and holy words utterly shameless lies. From this mixture is withdrawn off the teaching of the Carpocratians.
To them, therefore, as I said above, one must never give way ; nor, when they put forward their falsifications, should one concede that the secret Gospel is by Mark, but should even deny it on oath. For, "For not all true things are to be said to all men". For this reason the Wisdom of God, through Solomon, advises, "Answer the fool with his folly," , teaching that the light of the truth should be hidden from those who are mentally blind. Again it says, "From him who has not shall be taken away" and "Let the fool walk in darkness". But we are "children of Light" having been illuminated by "the dayspring" of the spirit of the Lord "from on high", and "Where the Spirit of the Lord is" , it says, "there is liberty", for "All things are pure to the pure".
To you, therefore, I shall not hesitate to answer the questions you have asked, refuting the falsifications by the very words of the Gospel. For example, after "And they were in the road going up to Jerusalem" and what follows, until "After three days he shall arise", the secret Gospel brings the following material word for word:
"And they come into Bethany. And a certain woman whose brother had died was there. And, coming, she prostrated herself before Jesus and says to him, "son of David, have mercy on me". But the disciples rebuked her. And Jesus, being angered , went off with her into the garden where the tomb was, and straightway, going in where the youth was, he stretched forth his hand and raised him, seizing his hand. But the youth, looking upon him, loved him and began to beseech him that he might be with him. And going out of the tomb they came into the house of the youth, for he was rich. And after six days Jesus told him what to do and in the evening the youth comes to him, wearing a linen cloth over his naked body. And he remained with him that night, for Jesus thaught him the mystery of the Kingdom of God. And thence, arising, he returned to the other side of the Jordan."
And these words follow the text, "And James and John come to him" and all that section. But "naked man with naked man" and the other things about which you wrote, are not found.
And after the words,"And he comes into Jericho," the secret Gospel adds only, "And the sister of the youth whom Jesus loved and his mother and Salome were there, and Jesus did not receive them." But many other things about which you wrote both seem to be and are falsifications.
The Lord forgives our sins, but He also said that we need to leave our sins.Homosexuality is natural. And i am sorry to step on toes but that makes it wrong. Our nature is sin, sin is who we are. Society has lied to us by saying that we should be ourselves. That is not right in any way shape or form. We are to be who God created us to be.
The Lord forgives our sins, but He also said that we need to leave our sins.
What are you trying to say? I am pretty sure everyone here knows that.
If every body "here" knows, understands and accepts that, then why are all of these debates about this coveted and blatant sin, that is being forced down the throats of society to conform and affirm, continually taking place in a Christians Only forum?
I could understand it in a non-Christian forum, that there would be such debates, but not in a Christians Only forum, where all are professed followers of Christ.
I mean that everyone knows you are supposed to turn away from your life of sin when you become a christian.
I was replying to an old post. sorry.What are you trying to say? I am pretty sure everyone here knows that.
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