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Its not my law. I'm not Jewish.
I was referring to this statement as a slur against the OT. If you don't have the OT, you don't have anything to relate to the NT too.
And if you don't want the law, then you don't want the Ten Commandments because "I'm not Jewish". It kinda goes together.
And if someone mentions something negative about the apocrypha in their signature and has a Catholic symbol, it makes one wonder?
Because if you don't believe in the apocrypha of the OT and put most of the OT down, one IS excommunicated from the RCC. That's just a fact, so I found it peculiar. Facts are facts.
31And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
I'm not Jewish, I'm a Christian, and Christians are beholden to Christ, not the 10 commandments.
That is not a negative against Jews. Thats not a negative against the apocrypha. Its nothing remotely like anything you are sayi9ng I said. I will not be any further drawn by this red herring. You attempt to divert discussion from the perfectly made point that Lev 18.22 is as irrelevant to modern Christians as the Levitical condemnation of mixed fabrics or excluding injured people from church is noted, seen through, and will henceforth be ignored, by me at least.
So, address the OP please, or start a new "is LightHorseman a TRUE Catholic?" thread.
So you miss the bit where I said the 10 commandments have been superceded by Christ's new commandments?It's not a red herring. If you take the 10 commandments, you take the law too.
And the law does not exclude injured people from the church. Where do you read these things?
Why shouldn't I be convinced, for example, that Jesus didn't literally die and rise from the dead?Those who stand on their claim that the Bible is literal will never be convinced on anything - they have already made up their minds.
Point 1. Scientifically, we now know that HIV Aids did not originate within the homosexual community.(Aids and Compassion (1988) edited by Dr. Jim McPherson).
Point 2. Sodom was not destroyed for its homosexuality....but makes no reference as to what caused its downfall. None make mention of homosexuality as the reason.
Point 3. The only claim in the Bible that homosexuality could have been the reason for Sodom's destruction comes in Jude 7. But Jude was written in about 80 AD and after one Philo of Alexandria (d. cira 50 AD), a Jewsih philosopher and writer living at the time of Paul, had claimed that Sodom's sin was homosexuality. It was Philo, the only Jewish writer from antiquity that made the first claim which, in all probability, influenced later authors like Paul and Jude.
Point 4. Paul certainly mentions homosexuality as a sin but it might be worth looking at the cultural with which the early believers were surrounded.
The Roman world had come into peace under Tiberius after years of civil wars. Pax Romana bought rest and wealth to a land weary of internal fighting. Tiberius was hailed as hero and was proclaimed Augusta - God with us. The Roman Empire now spanned many cultures and one was the Hellenised Greek culture - a culture that worshiped the human body. (The Olympic Games were held nude - well, at least for the athletics). This aesthetic influenced spread to Rome and coupled with the Emperor cult and the general peace and wealth enjoyed by the citizens, together with the practice of Temple prostitution and blood sports, resulted in a culture that was in love with itself - idolatry. This was the sin Paul was concerned with - the worship of the human body as god and the practice of self-indulgence. Paul was concerned to make separate his 'believers' from a population that worshipped 'self'.
Point 5. Yet, it seems clear there is no overwhelming prerogative that the Bible teaches homosexuality is a sin. But what the Bible does teach time and time again is the sin of self-indulgence - where such self-indulgence becomes self-worship. That's our error - worshipping ourselves.
I accept your apology.Okay, I apologize if I have hurt you in any way. I am sorry.
As far as the OP:
1) I agree homosexuality has some aspects of temple prostitution of a type of prostituing oneself's in a homosexual way for idol temple prostitution. And God detests this.
2) The cleanliness laws and AIDS may show someone can die from this practice (anal sex). I'm not completely convinced that anal sex should be avoided at all costs because of the greater possibility of STD's. I am not in complete agree with the point on AIDS at stated in the OP and that anal sex is a large aspect of AIDS as is blood (including "shooting up" with drugs). We know most diseases are nearly deadly once they get into the blood. I was just reading in Leviticus how much God told us to keep clean our blood and ways to do it!
Please stop being so Americo-centric. Yes, the first recorded cases of HIV/AIDS were among homosexuals in America, however the disease had been extant and spreading through African populations, of both hetero and homosexuals, unreported or unidentified for considerable time previuous to that.By the way, is there any scholarly evidence that shows heterosexuals first acquired Aids or is that just an opinion or a theory?
Actually the sin of Sodom was inhospitality. If you want to tie it in with the whole Lot event, then the sin was attempted RAPE. Consentually homosexuality in Sodom is never mentioned in the Bible.It would be more logical to believe the sin of Sodom was a case of pornea rather than solely homosexuality.
The belief that Sodom was destroyed because of homosexuality is a tradition started around the 9th century from memory. It certainly is not a Biblical claim.I disagree. Homosexuality was one of the reasons; however, it was not the only reason.
1959: Congolese man
One of the earliest documented HIV-1 infections was discovered in a preserved blood sample taken in 1959 from a man from Leopoldville, Belgian Congo (now Kinshasa, Democratic Republic of the Congo).[25] However, it is unknown whether this anonymous person ever developed AIDS and died of its complications.[26]
[edit] 1960: Congolese woman
A second early documented HIV-1 infection was discovered in a preserved lymph node biopsy sample taken in 1960 from a woman from Leopoldville, Belgian Congo.[11]
[edit] 1969: Robert R.
In 1969, a 15-year-old African-American male known to medicine as Robert R. died at the St. Louis City Hospital from aggressive Kaposi's sarcoma. AIDS was suspected as early as 1984, and in 1987, researchers at Tulane University School of Medicine confirmed this, finding HIV-1 in his preserved blood and tissues. The doctors who worked on his case at the time suspected he was a prostitute, though the patient did not discuss his sexual history with them in detail.[27][28][29][30][31]
[edit] 1969: Arvid Noe
In 1976, a Norwegian sailor named Arvid Noe, his wife, and his nine-year-old daughter died of AIDS. The sailor had first presented symptoms in 1969, eight years after he first spent time in ports along the West African coastline. A gonorrhoea infection during his first African voyage shows he was sexually active at this time. Tissue samples from the sailor and his wife were tested in 1988 and found to contain the HIV-1 virus (Group O).[32][33][34]
[edit] Spread to the western hemisphere
HIV-1 strains are thought to have arrived in the United States from Haiti in the late 1960s or early 1970s.[35] HIV-1 is believed to have arrived in Haiti from central Africa, possibly through professional contacts with the Democratic Republic of the Congo.[36]
Because of the long incubation period of HIV (up to a decade or longer) before symptoms of AIDS appear, and because of the initially low incidence, AIDS was not noticed at first. By the time the first reported cases of AIDS were found in large United States cities, the prevalence of HIV infection in some communities had passed 5%.[37] Worldwide, HIV infection has spread from urban to rural areas, and has appeared in regions such as China and India.
why is this part of Leviticus binding, yet we allow priests to trim their beards, or women to wear mixed fibres?
The tone of your post is reasonable, and I admire the chernobyl bit... however, here is my crux issue.It isn't whether Leviticus is binding or not, but where the heart stands morally on this issue. Internally---the heart----when homosexual tendencies are played out in peoples lives is what defiles someone.
Being straight forward, it has to do more with your body being God's temple than an issue about Leviticus. Pornea defiles God's temple. God didn't raise you up so you could "self-indulge" or erotically love others in that way. Intellectually, you were not designed for that purpose just as individuals were not intellectually designed for indulging in premartial sex.
My argument lies more in recognizing homosexuality as a form of pornea and helping people to understand this rather than unloading a chernobyl nuclear-meltdown sermon on my brethern.
Please stop being so Americo-centric. Yes, the first recorded cases of HIV/AIDS were among homosexuals in America, however the disease had been extant and spreading through African populations, of both hetero and homosexuals, unreported or unidentified for considerable time previuous to that.
Nope. It was a variety of things, but specifically the Angels caught Sodom red-handed with an attempted gay rape. That was the most infamous known reason for its destruction, but not it's only one nor it's only prime reason. It was the final straw as we do know the Angels went down to Sodom to check things out in case their was one righteous man alive.http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/may/26/aids.topstories3Actually the sin of Sodom was inhospitality.
If you want to tie it in with the whole Lot event, then the sin was attempted RAPE. Consentually homosexuality in Sodom is never mentioned in the Bible.
I disagree. The text clearly depicts an unjust episode of pornea---one of the reasons why God had the final straw with the people of Sodom.The belief that Sodom was destroyed because of homosexuality is a tradition started around the 9th century from memory. It certainly is not a Biblical claim.
The tone of your post is reasonable, and I admire the chernobyl bit... however, here is my crux issue.
If it is right and proper for a heterosexual couple who love each other to be in a monogomous sexual relationship, I don't see why a homosexual couple in a loving monogomous relationship should be any different. Pornea/agape/whatever aside, I don't see any inherent difference in the relationships.
Um... I didn't change my position at all. The first cases of HIV could have been in hetero or homosexuals, since either hetero or homosexual;s can be bush meat hunters.Despite your mounting evidence, only theories and suspicions are proposed concerning the origins of Aids. Nothing is exactly set in stone.
I would like to note that no one knows who first exactly contracted Aids or how it was first spread. I welcome that you changed your position to include "both hetero and homosexuals".
People only suspect SIV is related to AIDS. Rest assured, I would rather believe in the NWO conspiracy theories that AIDS was an engineered virus that was released for either population control or as an experiment.
raping strangers is pretty inhospitable, wouldn't you say? Although God had condemned Sodom BEFORE the angel incident, you'll recall, the Angels were only there looking for a handful of righteous people to save it. Where the sin of Sodom is actually specifically given (in Ezekiel maybe? I'm not 100% sure) it is specifically given as "inhospitality and haughtiness".Nope. It was a variety of things, but specifically the Angels caught Sodom red-handed with an attempted gay rape. That was the most infamous known reason for its destruction, but not it's only one nor it's only prime reason. It was the final straw as we do know the Angels went down to Sodom to check things out in case their was one righteous man alive.
I have no problem with just retribution against rapists. Believe me, I wish there were a great deal more in the world. However, my issue here is that I think it is BRUTALLY wrong to look at an example of attempted homosexual rape, and conclude that it is the homosexual part of the offence that is the crime, rather than the rape part. Yet this is what anti-homosexuals who cite the Sodom incident do time and again.Justice is mentioned. Wasn't it unjust for the people of Sodom to attempt to rape the Angels? By the way, there is a similar episode at the end of Judges where another rape is attempted. In response to it, the Israelites united together and sought justice against the Benjamites(I think it was them but correct me if I am wrong) for their actions.
But is the pornea in question the rape element or the homosexual element?I disagree. The text clearly depicts an unjust episode of pornea---one of the reasons why God had the final straw with the people of Sodom.
Well, as far as determining the "truth" as far as human inter relations are concerned, I try to use Christ's second new commandment as my yardstick... and as such, I can't see condemning ANY mutually consentual, non-third party harming activity as wrong, so as far as homosexuals in consentual relationships are concerned, I really think we are not to interfere in any way. Further (and heres a big if) even if homosexuals are sinning, and lets assume for the sake of argument they are, even if, under Christ's new commandment to us, since consentual homosexual intimacy is a non-third party harming activity, even if it IS a sin, it is not the place of you, me or anyone but the two people involved to discuss it as such, and absolutely never anbyone else's place to condemn it (let him without sin cast the first stone, mote in thy neighbours eye, etc)Sometimes we are like Pilate, asking Jesus and others, "What is truth?" Sometimes the truth is never clear to anyone. Like children of God, we tend to stray from Him and seek our own ways and do as we feel is right like Israel in the Book of Judges.
Um... I didn't change my position at all. The first cases of HIV could have been in hetero or homosexuals, since either hetero or homosexual;s can be bush meat hunters.
And yes, while it is always possible new information will come to light disproving the current scientific consensus, as far as ANY theory (including stuff like, you know, gravity and atoms) is ever proved, that HIV/AIDS is a zoonomic disease spread from chimps to Humans in Western Africa is proved
LOL..raping strangers is pretty inhospitable, wouldn't you say?
Although God had condemned Sodom BEFORE the angel incident, you'll recall, the Angels were only there looking for a handful of righteous people to save it.
Perhaps, but I am presenting my argument to show that homosexuality and gangrape were contributing reasons, but not the only reasons.Where the sin of Sodom is actually specifically given (in Ezekiel maybe? I'm not 100% sure) it is specifically given as "inhospitality and haughtiness". I have no problem with just retribution against rapists. Believe me, I wish there were a great deal more in the world. However, my issue here is that I think it is BRUTALLY wrong to look at an example of attempted homosexual rape, and conclude that it is the homosexual part of the offence that is the crime, rather than the rape part.
Clearly, it would be more logical to deduce rape, but from how YHWH lays down the rules via two mediators, Moses and Jesus, it is clear it may have been both. From that bold episode in Sodom, who knows what else they may have done.But is the pornea in question the rape element or the homosexual element?
A classic liberal case presented by Trudeu, the prime minister of Canada; that is that politics stays out of the bedroom.Well, as far as determining the "truth" as far as human inter relations are concerned, I try to use Christ's second new commandment as my yardstick... and as such, I can't see condemning ANY mutually consentual, non-third party harming activity as wrong, so as far as homosexuals in consentual relationships are concerned, I really think we are not to interfere in any way. Further (and heres a big if) even if homosexuals are sinning, and lets assume for the sake of argument they are, even if, under Christ's new commandment to us, since consentual homosexual intimacy is a non-third party harming activity, even if it IS a sin, it is not the place of you, me or anyone but the two people involved to discuss it as such, and absolutely never anbyone else's place to condemn it (let him without sin cast the first stone, mote in thy neighbours eye, etc)
No worries, happens to all of us.Sorry LightHorseman, I confused you with Wayseer....lol
I originally replied to him then to you, and in response for some reason I forgot I replied to his first post in this discussion to begin with.
I remember directing my first post to him (about how aids was first recognized in homosexuals, thus suggesting it may have started in homosexuals as well).
I just wanted to clear things up
I stand corrected you never changed any position to begin with----ho ho ho
Think we may have to agree to disagree on this one.You know what, I don't know whether it originated from gays or straights, but I am one of the few people out there that suspect that the NWO theories surrounding Aids may be true, indeed, contrary to the opinions of many
I saw a video called Blueprint For Global Enslavement, and that was shocking when it discussed what the western governments did to their own populations on health grounds.
LKaughter is prayer. Glad I could inspire you thus.LOL.
Um... I'm happy to accept it as read that the inhabitants of Sodom were generally sinful... making assumptions about the exact typoes or severity of those sins, or even assuming that any or a majority of them were inherently sexual seems, to me, Biblically unsupported supposition.BEFORE the angel incident, it is logical to believe that Sodomites were no different than those actors in internet videos like 2girls1cup, Kids in a sandbox, Mr. Hands dies-by-a-horse-dick, ect? Sodom hands down was pretty bad, wouldn't you say and is quite logical they probably did a lot of immoral and other evil things?
I still don't see any part that says that homosexuality was a contributing factor at all.Perhaps, but I am presenting my argument to show that homosexuality and gangrape were contributing reasons, but not the only reasons.
I don't think it would have been any more shocking had it been an attempted heterosexual rape. But hey, for the sake of argument, lets agree that the homosexuality aspect makes this a death worthy sin... it STILL doesn't suggest that CONSENTUAL homosexual sex is.It is easy to interpret it that way because men wanted to have sex with men just before the city was burned to a crisp
I mean, come on man! When I first read the bible and I came across to this chapter, it was shocking!!!! I couldn't believe that an actual attempted rape scene was depicted in the bible. It was shocking for me to see that.
Where did Jesus mention homosexuality?Clearly, it would be more logical to deduce rape, but from how YHWH lays down the rules via two mediators, Moses and Jesus, it is clear it may have been both. From that bold episode in Sodom, who knows what else they may have done.
Rather a circular agrgument... homosexuality is pornea, pornea is bad, therefore homosexuality is bad... the obvious step that would sell me is missing./.. i.e. explicitly in what way is homosexuality harmful to those engaging in it? Conversely, again, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, and for the sake of argument, lets agree that homosexuality IS bad because it "defiles God's temple". So I can take it that you and others who subscribe to this point of view will spend as much time and energy condemning smoking, alcohol, classical ballet and professional athletics as you do condemning homosexuality?A classic liberal case presented by Trudeu, the prime minister of Canada; that is that politics stays out of the bedroom.
There is a case where homosexuality is harmful. Paul argues that those who partake in pornea harm themselves. The apostles argued that we are God's Temple and pornea defiles that it.
Dr (and I use the term loosely) Schlessinger is not exactly the best example of consistent morality to look to for guidance. However, even though she is a self proclaimed orthodox Jew, the Leviticus 18.22 canard is quite often the first thing the anti-homosexual Christian will reach for when questioned about homosexuality, and I think the points raised about the other Levitical silliness that show how silly it is for "Dr. Laura" to cite Lev 18.22 without regard to context or contemporary ethics are equally applicable to Christians who make the same errors.
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