Homosexual & sodomite: etymology, definition & synonyms

A.ModerateOne · Mar 1, 2021

Do you see "homosexuality" listed in the sins listed there in Ezekiel, by inspiration of the Holy Spirit? I don't see it listed. Man may make many theological constructions and replace God's word by his traditions, but that is futile and vain.

"Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition." (Mark 7:7-9 KJV)

East of Eden · Mar 1, 2021

A.ModerateOne said:
Do you see "homosexuality" listed in the sins listed there in Ezekiel, by inspiration of the Holy Spirit? I don't see it listed. Man may make many theological constructions and replace God's word by his traditions, but that is futile and vain.

"Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition." (Mark 7:7-9 KJV)

We disagree, and I don't think the church had this wrong for thousands of years.

See God Didn't Punish Sodom and Gomorrah for Homosexuality? - BreakPoint

It explains the error of your Ezekiel quote, you left out the following verses where it says the men of Sodom did an 'abomination' before Me. The word for abomination is the same one used in Leviticus to condemn homosexual behavior. So yes, homosexuality is one of the sins listed by Ezekiel.

A.ModerateOne · Mar 1, 2021

East of Eden said:
We disagree, and I don't think the church had this wrong for thousands of years.

See God Didn't Punish Sodom and Gomorrah for Homosexuality? - BreakPoint

It explains the error of your Ezekiel quote, you left out the following verses where it says the men of Sodom did an 'abomination' before Me. The word for abomination is the same one used in Leviticus to condemn homosexual behavior. So yes, homosexuality is one of the sins listed by Ezekiel.

Brother, go back and look, I did not leave out the verse about "abomination" in Ezekiel 16. I did explain what Ezekiel means by "abomination" the 40+ times he uses it; which is the same as its use in Lev. 18:22, which was male temple prostitution; and if you go look at Lev. 26:46; 27:34 you'll see this was for the Israelites under the Old Covenant, not quoted for Christians in the New Covenant. But, as to the views down through the centuries in the church, you'll find the perspective is about men who we'd call straight or heterosexuals, who are so perverted and consumed with lust that they choose to engage in sexual acts with other men as you can see in the 19th century JFB Commentary on Rom. 1:26,27 -

"But observe how vice is here seen consuming and exhausting itself. When the passions, scourged by violent and continued indulgence in natural [heterosexual] vices, became impotent to yield the craved enjoyment, resort was had to artificial stimulants by the practice of unnatural [homosexual] and monstrous vices."

Bible scholars understand that is what Paul is stating in Rom. 1:27 as well.
". In The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, Fully Revised 1988, Vol. 4 page, 437 we read this comment on Rom. 1:27:
"...how did Paul understand the homosexual behavior he condemned? Evidently he understood it as freely chosen (cf. 'exchanged,' 'gave up') by people for whom heterosexual relations were 'natural,' and as chosen (by heterosexual people) because of their insatiable lust ('consumed with passion')."

I'll not continue on this thread because those convinced against their will....

East of Eden · Mar 1, 2021

A.ModerateOne said:
Brother, go back and look, I did not leave out the verse about "abomination" in Ezekiel 16. I did explain what Ezekiel means by "abomination" the 40+ times he uses it; which is the same as its use in Lev. 18:22, which was male temple prostitution; and if you go look at Lev. 26:46; 27:34 you'll see this was for the Israelites under the Old Covenant, not quoted for Christians in the New Covenant.

The New Testament has it's own prohibitions against sodomy, and goes so far to say that those who engage in that will not inherit the kingdom.

But, as to the views down through the centuries in the church, you'll find the perspective is about men who we'd call straight or heterosexuals, who are so perverted and consumed with lust that they choose to engage in sexual acts with other men as you can see in the 19th century JFB Commentary on Rom. 1:26,27 -

All who engage in homosexual acts choose to do so, show me where the church has approved of any homosexual behavior before our present apostate age.

"But observe how vice is here seen consuming and exhausting itself. When the passions, scourged by violent and continued indulgence in natural [heterosexual] vices, became impotent to yield the craved enjoyment, resort was had to artificial stimulants by the practice of unnatural [homosexual] and monstrous vices."

Bible scholars understand that is what Paul is stating in Rom. 1:27 as well.
". In The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, Fully Revised 1988, Vol. 4 page, 437 we read this comment on Rom. 1:27:
"...how did Paul understand the homosexual behavior he condemned? Evidently he understood it as freely chosen (cf. 'exchanged,' 'gave up') by people for whom heterosexual relations were 'natural,' and as chosen (by heterosexual people) because of their insatiable lust ('consumed with passion')."

That is a distinction without a difference. More proof that in the last days men will not put up with sound teaching.....

I'll not continue on this thread because those convinced against their will....

We can agree on that.

dms1972 · May 23, 2021

hedrick said:
My own translation would probably be voluptuous persons and male prostitutes.

"Voluptuous" in the sense of self-indulgent or sensual?

hedrick · May 23, 2021

dms1972 said:
"Voluptuous" in the sense of self-indulgent or sensual?

yes.

SkyWriting · Sep 18, 2021

Dave-W said:
English words mean nothing.

That's pretty hard to defend - given your post.

SkyWriting · Sep 18, 2021

A.ModerateOne said:
The etymology and standard English definitions are from The New Shorter Oxford English Dictionary. For the synonyms the Roget's International Thesaurus, Seventh Edition

"homosexual...a. & n. L19[1870-1899]...A adj. Sexually attracted to people of one's own sex; of, pertaining to, or characterized by sexual attraction between people of the same sex. L19[1870-1899]. B n. A person who is sexually attracted (often exclusively) to people of his or her own sex. E20[1900-1929]"

"sodomite... n. ME[1150-1349] ... Late L. f. Gk Sodomite f. Sodoma Sodom 1 Sodomy. Only in ME[1150-1349]. 2 A person who practises or commits sodomy. LME[1350-1469]."

"sodomy n. ME[1150-1349]. [med.L sodomia, f. eccl.L peccatum Sodommiticum sin of Sodom... Any form of sexual intercourse with a person of the same or opposite sex, except copulation; spec. anal intercourse. Also, bestiality."

The word "homosexual" is not found in the KJV, ASV, RSV(1971) or the NRSV. The word "sodomite(s)" is found 5 times in the KJV: Dt. 23:17; 1 Kgs 14:24; 15:12; 22:46; 2Kgs 23:7 but the KJV does not use the word anywhere in the New Testament.

The word "sodomites" is found 2 times in the NRSV, 1Co 6:9; 1Ti 1:10 but is not found anywhere in the Old Testament of the NRSV.

The synonyms in their context from the Roget's:

Page 60 Sect. 75.14 "homosexual" gay person, homosexualist, homophile, invert;"

Page 60 Sect. 75.16 "sexual pervert; pervert, perve <nf>, deviant, deviate, sex pervert, sex fiend, sex criminal, sexual psychopath; sodomist, sodomite, sob <Brit nf> , bugger, pederast"

The word "sodomite(s)" in the KJV is defined by the BDB thus:

Strong's H6945 qâdêsh
1) male temple prostitute
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: from H6942

Strong's H6942 qâdash
BDB Definition:
1) to consecrate, sanctify, prepare, dedicate, be hallowed, be holy, be sanctified, be separate

The confusion and uncertainty about the word "homosexual" in the NASB & NKJV demonstrates the problem of being dogmatic here for malakos & arsenokoites and I'll demonstrate by the pertinent phrase from the two translations:
NASB - "nor effeminate, nor homosexuals" here arsenokoites is translated as "homosexuals".
NKJV - "nor homosexuals, nor sodomites" here malakos is translated as "homosexuals".

The English words "sodomites" and "homosexuals" did not exist in the times of the Bible as can be seen above in the etymology. The two words are NOT synonymous. Spending a lot of time researching this verse, it seems that the NIV Greek-English Interlinear literal translation of "nor voluptuous persons, nor sodomites" is close, keeping in mind today's meaning of "sodomite" as seen in the Roget's quoted above. In similar translation, the New Jerusalem Bible translates these as "the self-indulgent, sodomites".

The Greek word malakos occurs 3 other times apart from 1 Co. 6:9 and it is not in anyway used in a sexual context:

But what went ye out for to see? A man clothed in soft(malakos) raiment? behold, they that wear soft(malakos) clothing are in kings' houses. (Matt 11:8, KJV)
But what went ye out for to see? A man clothed in soft(malakos) raiment? Behold, they which are gorgeously apparelled, and live delicately, are in kings' courts. (Luke 7:25, KJV)

From Heinrich Meyer's commentary on this verse:

"μαλακοί] effeminates, commonly understood as qui muliebria patiuntur, but with no sufficient evidence from the usage of the language (the passages in Wetstein and Kypke, even Dion. Hal. vii. 2, do not prove the point); moreover, such catamites (molles) were called πόρνοι or κίναιδοι. One does not see, moreover, why precisely this sin should be mentioned twice over in different aspects. Rather therefore: effeminate luxurious livers. Comp Aristotle, Eth. vii. 7 : μαλακὸς καὶ τρυφῶν, Xen. Mem. ii. 1, 20, also μαλακῶς, iii. 11. 10 : τρυφὴ δὲ καὶ μαλθακία, Plato, Rep. p. 590 B."

It means non-monogamous.

A.ModerateOne · Sep 18, 2021

East of Eden said:
The New Testament has it's own prohibitions against sodomy, and goes so far to say that those who engage in that will not inherit the kingdom.

I see no sin named "sodomy" in either the OT or the NT of any English translation.

All who engage in homosexual acts choose to do so, show me where the church has approved of any homosexual behavior before our present apostate age.

Maybe the church as refused to read about Jonathan's heart felt love for David and David's praise of Jonathan's love...

"That same day, when Saul had finished talking with David, he kept him and would not let him return any more to his father's house, for he saw that Jonathan had given his heart to David and had grown to love him as himself." (1 Sam. 18:1 New English Bible)
katapi home page

From an online Hebrew-English Interlinear OT in literal translation of this verse:

"and soul-of Jonathan she-was-tied in-soul-of David"
https://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/1sa18.pdf

The KJV words "was knit" translates the Hebrew "qashar", and every place the word is used with humans, when the modifier "she" is added in a literal translation, it is with females when the context indicates gender, EXCEPT HERE, where it speaks of Jonathan's love. So the usual cross reference to Gen. 44:30 does not match this usage in 1 Sam. 18:1.

Then when you come to the lament at the death of Jonathan, it is quite clear:

"I grieve for you, Jonathan my brother; dear and delightful you were to me; your love for me was wonderful, surpassing the love of women." (2 Sam. 1:26 New English Bible)
katapi home page

If David meant wives or mothers, it would read that way. The phrase "love of women" is clearly sexual in a normal reading of language. Of course you can use the church mis-translation Douay-Rheims that adds a completely fraudulent sentence to the verse about mother love!

SkyWriting · Sep 18, 2021

East of Eden said:
Even if so, irrelevant, the sin has been around since Sodom.

It depends on how the term is used and it's context at the time.
At the time it meant "Sleeping around outside of marriage".
Or "Abandoning marriage in favor of other kinds of sex related situations"
Some abandoned marriage for same sex, alternative sex, and unregulated sex.
And no, Sodom was not the beginning of this behavior or even considered the worst type of sin.

SkyWriting · Sep 18, 2021

East of Eden said:
OK, but you left out the sin of homosexual activity, which was condemned throughout the Bible and uniformly throughout most of church history.

"Extra marital" activity, actually. Not limited in any way to same-sex activity.

East of Eden · Sep 18, 2021

SkyWriting said:
It means non-monogamous.

Which means about everybody in the gay world.

SkyWriting · Sep 22, 2021

East of Eden said:
Which means about everybody in the gay world.

Not true in the least. And still little difference from any other sexual preference group.
And you need to consider that gay couples were prohibited from living together. This makes monogamy extremely difficult to practice.

hedrick · Sep 23, 2021

SkyWriting said:
Not true in the least. And still little difference from any other sexual preference group.
And you need to consider that gay couples were prohibited from living together. This makes monogamy extremely difficult to practice.

It’s hard to get reliable data on this, but it looks like one consequence of acceptance of gays and gay marriage has been a partial move in the direction of a more conventional life style. Certainly not all gay relationships are monogamous. I saw one estimate of 50% for married couples. But I think that’s a much higher rate than a few decades ago.

A year or so I saw an opinion piece by an older gay person somewhat nostalgic for the older, countercultural gay scene. It’s still there. As I’ve said before, there is no one gay life style. But a more conventional style is also common.

SkyWriting · Sep 23, 2021

hedrick said:
It’s hard to get reliable data on this, but it looks like one consequence of acceptance of gays and gay marriage has been a partial move in the direction of a more conventional life style. Certainly not all gay relationships are monogamous. I saw one estimate of 50% for married couples. But I think that’s a much higher rate than a few decades ago.

A year or so I saw an opinion piece by an older gay person somewhat nostalgic for the older, countercultural gay scene. It’s still there. As I’ve said before, there is no one gay life style. But a more conventional style is also common.

What I've been trying to explain is that scripture is not even referring to sexual preferences.
It is referring to the countercultural gay scene. Why would any "straight" person want to marry a formerly "Gay" person? Even God knows that's crazy. What scripture is saying is that "Those people need to stop sleeping around!"

And that goes for "straight" people, even more so. Farther back into the Old Testament.

East of Eden · Sep 23, 2021

SkyWriting said:
Why would any "straight" person want to marry a formerly "Gay" person?

No different than marrying someone who has sinned heterosexually in the past, and repented. Jesus would say to a repentant homosexual the same as he said to the woman caught in adultery, "Your sins are forgiven, go and sin no more."

East of Eden · Sep 23, 2021

hedrick said:
It’s hard to get reliable data on this, but it looks like one consequence of acceptance of gays and gay marriage has been a partial move in the direction of a more conventional life style. Certainly not all gay relationships are monogamous. I saw one estimate of 50% for married couples. But I think that’s a much higher rate than a few decades ago.

Many Successful Gay Marriages Share an Open Secret (Published 2010)

God's standard for sex is one man, one woman, in a lifelong marriage relationship, period.

hedrick · Sep 23, 2021

East of Eden said:
Many Successful Gay Marriages Share an Open Secret (Published 2010)

God's standard for sex is one man, one woman, in a lifelong marriage relationship, period.

That article was the source of my 50%. While many gay marriages are open, many are not.

SkyWriting · Sep 23, 2021

East of Eden said:
No different than marrying someone who has sinned heterosexually in the past, and repented. Jesus would say to a repentant homosexual the same as he said to the woman caught in adultery, "Your sins are forgiven, go and sin no more."

Note that he doesn't identify any sins but leaves them to the woman to decide what is sin.
You are also called to let people decide what is sin for themself.

James 4:17
So whoever knows the right thing to do and fails to do it,
for him it is sin.

No, having a sexual preference you don't have, is not a sin.

SkyWriting · Sep 23, 2021

East of Eden said:
God's standard for sex is one man, one woman, in a lifelong marriage relationship, period.

You are welcome to that opinion, but one wonders about all the other forms of sex and sex attraction that people have. Christian priests for example. Having a sexual preference that you don't have, is not a sin.

My point being that God makes a huge variety of people.
A friend of mine was born with spinal cancer which left her 95% paralyzed.

So me with my Dr. God sex prescription pad: What do I write for her?
How do I dictate what sex acts are godly for a quadriplegic?
Is it mine or any idiots place to dictate her partners or sex acts?

Homosexual & sodomite: etymology, definition & synonyms

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