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Home Schooling vs Public School

acropolis

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That's a problem with society, not with literacy.

It's unethical and just unkind to let children pay the price for that. People need to be able to read to survive in today's society.

Many kids do enjoy learning to read, but it's usually in an environment that is supportive and informative. What if the parents are themselves illiterate? Or what if they just don't care to teach their kids much of anything? It's these cases that require society to act on behalf of the kid.

We all, as a society, get to decide what we will and will not tolerate. We don't allow parents to neglect their children. Not teaching them to read is one of the most damaging things you can do to a kid in terms of their future success, so it's important that we don't allow it to happen.

Children aren't 100% developed rational actors yet. They don't know what is best for them because they are new to the world. It's up to adults to raise them in a good way. Parents don't have the right to rob their children of any chance for success. A minimum of care and education must be provided to the child, by one method or another, and it's well within the rights of society to protect a child from a negligent parent.

Any ethical model which removes neglect as something that can happen even in theory is highly suspect, to say the least. I think you may need to more fully consider the ramifications of what you're proposing.
 
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MacFall

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It's unethical and just unkind to let children pay the price for that. People need to be able to read to survive in today's society.

It is unethical and unkind to treat children like receptacles for your values system, regardless of what their needs are.

Many kids do enjoy learning to read, but it's usually in an environment that is supportive and informative.
Good. Offer that environment to them, then. You seem to be unable to tell the difference between making something available to people and pushing people around to get them to do what you want.

We all, as a society, get to decide what we will and will not tolerate.
Bullcrap. Society does not exist; only individuals do. YOU, as an individual have your own personal preferences, and the biggest gang in town happens to be run by individuals share them.

You are not in a special moral category. You do NOT have the right to do what you think they should do against their will. All you have is an ideological similarity to the mafia with a flag, who can get away with killing anyone who sufficiently disagrees with you.

Any ethical model which removes neglect as something that can happen even in theory is highly suspect, to say the least. I think you may need to more fully consider the ramifications of what you're proposing.
You think neglect doesn't happen now? LOL.

You can't make Utopia. You can steamroll all over the rights of everyone who disagrees with you, you can herd their children into indoctrination centers, you can put a cop in every home if you want, but you won't make the society you want. Abuse will still happen. The only difference is that you will have made yourself a part of it.

All you will EVER achieve through violence is hurting people, including those whom you are trying to help.

Fortunately, no system of control lasts long enough for the control freaks ultimately to get their way, and the education system is no exception. I predict its demise for economic reasons within a few decades, if ideological reasons don't end it first.
 
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acropolis

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It is unethical and unkind to treat children like receptacles for your values system, regardless of what their needs are.

You are trying awfully hard to cast teaching kids to read as a wicked horrible mind-control practice when it is the opposite. Literacy sets people free and gives them a tremendously powerful tool to create their own identities and make up their own minds.

Good. Offer that environment to them, then. You seem to be unable to tell the difference between making something available to people and pushing people around to get them to do what you want.
That's exactly why we need public schools, in order to offer that environment to the children of parents who for whatever reason cannot provide it themselves! Bad parents exist! Busy parents exist! You're taking the best case scenario of a parent who has the time, knowledge, and desire to properly educate their children and assuming that's how it is for everyone. It isn't! And we would be remiss if we allowed children to fall through the cracks.

Society does exist, and there is a consensus on what will and will not be tolerated. Starving a child is not tolerated, and society will step in to remedy that situation. The freedom of a parent to dispose of their child in whatever way they see fit is not absolute, and there are certain things they are forbidden to do, or even to fail to do. They have an obligation to education their children. If they have the resources to do so alone then they can do that, provided they can demonstrate it, but for those who can't there must be a public option.


Neglect happens all the time, but by its nature it is only made worse by ignoring it. In order to protect children from neglect we must check in on those kids, one way or another, and make sure they're doing OK. If it's clear they aren't then something must be done.

It's not about utopia, but about ensuring some basic level of care and education for children. They didn't choose to be born to neglectful parents, nor do they have the power to protect themselves, so society must help them. Parents do not have the right to harm their children, even if they really want to, or if it's part of their belief system, or for any reason. There are standards of care they must provide and society must take action to ensure it happens.

Public school plays an essential role in ensuring the well-being and education of children, particular those whose parents are least equipped to provide it themselves. There are problems with how public schools are run, but it's not a solution to simply abandon children altogether.

edit: And just to be completely clear I'm not arguing for abolishing home school or anything like that, just that there needs to be some way to check on the welfare of the child and make they're learning some basic essentials and aren't malnourished etc. Parents who can teach their kids and keep them socialized and healthy are more than welcome to. They'll still be obligated to fund the public option, but they don't have to use it.
 
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MacFall

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All you are doing is expressing your willingness to force your values on other people and trying to excuse it by pretending you know better then them. Well, you don't. You're not that special. You're not superior. And most importantly, you do not have special rights because you are in agreement with a group of people with the legal power to kill those who do not do as they say. All you are is someone who happens to agree with a group of extremely successful murderers. And if that group constituted 99% of "society", it wouldn't change anything. So just stop with the pretense of caring about people's best interests. If you gave a crap about that, you would treat them with respect instead of as a pile of eggs to make your perfect omelet. You would not have the ridiculous belief that a gang of murderers could possibly take better care of children than their freaking PARENTS.

Also, I just love how you characterize "not forcing people to do something" as "keeping people from doing something". I think you're just too in love with the idea of control through violence to consider the idea that people can function without it, otherwise you wouldn't keep up that characterization.
 
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acropolis

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You're completely ignoring the existence of child neglect. It happens, and the only way to remedy it is to step in on behalf of the child. Whether it's refusing to feed them or refusing to educate them to some basic degree it's still not acceptable. No actual violence needs to be done to the parents, they just will lose their kids most likely.

Look guy you have some nice beliefs about how violence is bad, and I agree it's a bad thing and we should all be as free as possible, but there are practical issues with securing people from violence and keeping them free. For example, some kid who can't read and never leaves the farm so he or she can work for their parents while not being property fed is not free and is not free from violence. We need to actively protect children from situations like that. This isn't exactly a controversial position I'm taking here.
 
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MacFall

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You're completely ignoring the existence of child neglect.

I am not. I just don't pretend that the most violent institution in the history of the human race is capable of dealing with the issue of neglect. I also don't believe that I'm so superior to everyone that I ought to be able to redefine "neglect" beyond basic needs to fit my personal values.

There is a peaceful solution to the problem of neglect. I understand it's just so convenient to send in the thugs with guns and badges, but convenience is no excuse for force.
 
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acropolis

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Literacy is a pretty basic need. Also neglect can't be remedied if no one is checking in on the kid so it falls to the community one way or another to stop it.
 
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acropolis

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The problem is that your idea of a "community" is actually "thugs with guns and badges".

Right. Well I'm in full support of intervention in the case of neglect, including refusing to educate a child. So are most people so that's what tends to happen, sorry if that ruins any of your future plans.
 
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