Holiness

[FaithfulPilgrim]

What Scriptures are used to advocate the Holiness teachings of the groups like Nazarenes and Wesleyans?

This is something I have always been curious about and I have wondered where they got those teachings from. I started exploring it as I realized that God would never command us to do something that is impossible, and we can do all things through Him.

Is there any Scriptural support that we can be cleansed of the tendency to commit sin while we are still alive here on this planet?

Aside from Scripture, can you also advocate Holiness with reason and history?

 

[John Hyperspace]

What Scriptures are used to advocate the Holiness teachings of the groups like Nazarenes and Wesleyans?

This is something I have always been curious about and I have wondered where they got those teachings from. I started exploring it as I realized that God would never command us to do something that is impossible, and we can do all things through Him.

Is there any Scriptural support that we can be cleansed of the tendency to commit sin while we are still alive here on this planet?

Aside from Scripture, can you also advocate Holiness with reason and history?

I believe so (though perhaps not in the sense being advocated by the aforementioned branches) and a good passage to support such: 1 John 3:9. Now the real question is not, can we be holy and free from committing sin; but it is the question of how? What sin, by what measure? Paul also wrote: Romans 7:18. So it is not the will, but the how to perform that will. I would propose that it cannot be through the law, since it's written: Hebrews 7:11, Galatians 3:21, Hebrews 7:19: and as pertaining to the flesh the weakness of the law to give life was revealed: Romans 8:3, Hebrews 7:18.

But of the righteousness of faith: Habakkuk 2:4, Romans 1:17, Galatians 3:11, Hebrews 10:38, and so of sin and faith: Romans 14:23 so that which is not of faith is sin; and of the law it is written: Galatians 3:12. So by which measure of "sin" is holiness and righteousness? Of the law, or, of faith? Not of the law, or, not of faith? From whence does imputation of sin come? And, what is the way to holiness? By the law, or, by faith? Romans 3:21, Romans 4:13, Romans 10:4-5, Galatians 2:21, Philippians 3:9

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

What Scriptures are used to advocate the Holiness teachings of the groups like Nazarenes and Wesleyans?

This is something I have always been curious about and I have wondered where they got those teachings from. I started exploring it as I realized that God would never command us to do something that is impossible, and we can do all things through Him.

Is there any Scriptural support that we can be cleansed of the tendency to commit sin while we are still alive here on this planet?

Aside from Scripture, can you also advocate Holiness with reason and history?

Holiness is something which is worked in us by the Holy Spirit. We are justified by faith and so our Christianity is not performance-based. We are totally accepted by God and clothed with the righteousness of Christ through faith in Christ.

Once that is established, the Holy Spirit works sanctification in us as we grow in grace. When a person is truly converted to Christ the desire for holiness is planted within him or her. This desire causes us to pray that our experience of God be enhanced and that the sanctification process proceeds as quickly as possible. We realise that we are not called to uncleanness but to holiness, but also realise that holiness is not possible without the working of the Holy Spirit within us.

Therefore holiness cannot be imposed on us by any person or church. If we try to become more holy because it is a demand of the leaders of a church then we are trying to become self-righteous and are falling into performance-based religion instead of genuine Christianity. The scripture says that our righteousness is as filthy rags before God. Trying to be holy in our own strength is just trying to improve the filthy rags that are unacceptable to God.

Church leaders who are monitoring and disciplining the members because they are "not holy enough" are promoting self-righteousness and imposing rules and laws very similar to what the false apostles tried to impose on the Galatian churches. Paul utterly rejected those teachers, and yet there are teachers and leaders just like them in some of the Nazarene and Wesleyan holiness churches today.

To be fair, I fellowshipped with a Nazarene church in Wellington when I was younger, and I never felt that anyone was monitoring me or imposing anything on me. They seemed to believe in entire sanctification by faith. I think that some might misinterpret that by demanding that people be sinlessly perfect.

As for me, I have a Puritan theology which assures a person that they are justified by faith, and sanctification is developmental and will not be complete until we see Jesus in glory. Holiness churches are Arminian in theology where a person can be saved today, but if they fail in holiness they can be lost. I think that this is a confusion between justification and sanctification which are two different things. This is why I am Calvinist when it comes to distinguishing between justification which remains while a believer continues to have faith in the finished work of Christ, and sanctification which is a developmental work that carries on over a whole lifetime.

 

[FaithfulPilgrim]

Holiness is something which is worked in us by the Holy Spirit. We are justified by faith and so our Christianity is not performance-based. We are totally accepted by God and clothed with the righteousness of Christ through faith in Christ.

Once that is established, the Holy Spirit works sanctification in us as we grow in grace. When a person is truly converted to Christ the desire for holiness is planted within him or her. This desire causes us to pray that our experience of God be enhanced and that the sanctification process proceeds as quickly as possible. We realise that we are not called to uncleanness but to holiness, but also realise that holiness is not possible without the working of the Holy Spirit within us.

Therefore holiness cannot be imposed on us by any person or church. If we try to become more holy because it is a demand of the leaders of a church then we are trying to become self-righteous and are falling into performance-based religion instead of genuine Christianity. The scripture says that our righteousness is as filthy rags before God. Trying to be holy in our own strength is just trying to improve the filthy rags that are unacceptable to God.

Church leaders who are monitoring and disciplining the members because they are "not holy enough" are promoting self-righteousness and imposing rules and laws very similar to what the false apostles tried to impose on the Galatian churches. Paul utterly rejected those teachers, and yet there are teachers and leaders just like them in some of the Nazarene and Wesleyan holiness churches today.

To be fair, I fellowshipped with a Nazarene church in Wellington when I was younger, and I never felt that anyone was monitoring me or imposing anything on me. They seemed to believe in entire sanctification by faith. I think that some might misinterpret that by demanding that people be sinlessly perfect.

As for me, I have a Puritan theology which assures a person that they are justified by faith, and sanctification is developmental and will not be complete until we see Jesus in glory. Holiness churches are Arminian in theology where a person can be saved today, but if they fail in holiness they can be lost. I think that this is a confusion between justification and sanctification which are two different things. This is why I am Calvinist when it comes to distinguishing between justification which remains while a believer continues to have faith in the finished work of Christ, and sanctification which is a developmental work that carries on over a whole lifetime.

My grandma was raised a Nazarene, but I guess her church was one of the more legalistic ones as she felt religion was forced on her and she became a misotheist.

I agree with the concept of holiness, for reasons I explained in the OP, but because I also believe that many Christians are too worldly, so I want to see holiness promoted in church without being legalistic or holier than thou.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

My grandma was raised a Nazarene, but I guess her church was one of the more legalistic ones as she felt religion was forced on her and she became a misotheist.

I agree with the concept of holiness, for reasons I explained in the OP, but because I also believe that many Christians are too worldly, so I want to see holiness promoted in church without being legalistic or holier than thou.

Quite right. It is difficult to get the right balance between legalism and liberalism. I am convinced that a person who is genuinely converted to Christ hates it when he or she fails in any area of holiness because of the new heart that is given. It is on that new heart that the law of Christ is written. Before a person is converted, he or she couldn't care less about sin, righteousness and judgment to come. But after conversion that same person couldn't care more! An unbeliever doesn't struggle with sin, but a genuine believer does, and the struggle can be heart-breaking at times.

Also, there are lying and accusing demons in the mix as well. I am sure that it is the influence of lying demons that cause some to panic and get legalistic and try to establish their own righteousness for fear of losing their salvation. It is a lying demon that would tell a person that they could lose their salvation for not being holy enough. A person can lose their salvation by completely turning their back on Christ and becoming atheist again. But a genuine believer with a new heart could never do that. That is why John says that the person who is born of God cannot sin. The sin he is talking about are not our shortcomings and failures to resist temptation at times. It is the sin of rejecting Christ. This makes his statement meaningful - that the true believer could never reject Christ. In this sense, once-saved-always-saved is true. While it is possible for a believer to lose his salvation, it is not likely.

A genuine believer will do all he can to achieve the highest standard of holiness he can. This is not because of fear, but of a passion and desire to glorify Christ and be the person Jesus wants him to be. It is not something forced upon him, but he chooses it out of that strong desire to respond to the wonderful love and grace that Christ extends to him. In a sense, we can rest in Christ, that what He doesn't like about us, He will change it. That is what brings a deep sense of peace, because through Christ we have peace with God and are free to do His will and be used of Him. Actually, through the bestowal of the righteousness of Christ which makes us totally acceptable to God, we have the confidence that God does not see us in terms of how holy we are, because He sees us through the holiness of Jesus. So as long as we keep our faith in Jesus and follow the leading of the Holy Spirit, we will be walking in the light, and the blood of Jesus will cleanse us from all sin.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Quite right. It is difficult to get the right balance between legalism and liberalism. I am convinced that a person who is genuinely converted to Christ hates it when he or she fails in any area of holiness because of the new heart that is given. It is on that new heart that the law of Christ is written. Before a person is converted, he or she couldn't care less about sin, righteousness and judgment to come. But after conversion that same person couldn't care more! An unbeliever doesn't struggle with sin, but a genuine believer does, and the struggle can be heart-breaking at times.

Also, there are lying and accusing demons in the mix as well. I am sure that it is the influence of lying demons that cause some to panic and get legalistic and try to establish their own righteousness for fear of losing their salvation. It is a lying demon that would tell a person that they could lose their salvation for not being holy enough. A person can lose their salvation by completely turning their back on Christ and becoming atheist again. But a genuine believer with a new heart could never do that. That is why John says that the person who is born of God cannot sin. The sin he is talking about are not our shortcomings and failures to resist temptation at times. It is the sin of rejecting Christ. This makes his statement meaningful - that the true believer could never reject Christ. In this sense, once-saved-always-saved is true. While it is possible for a believer to lose his salvation, it is not likely.

A genuine believer will do all he can to achieve the highest standard of holiness he can. This is not because of fear, but of a passion and desire to glorify Christ and be the person Jesus wants him to be. It is not something forced upon him, but he chooses it out of that strong desire to respond to the wonderful love and grace that Christ extends to him. In a sense, we can rest in Christ, that what He doesn't like about us, He will change it. That is what brings a deep sense of peace, because through Christ we have peace with God and are free to do His will and be used of Him. Actually, through the bestowal of the righteousness of Christ which makes us totally acceptable to God, we have the confidence that God does not see us in terms of how holy we are, because He sees us through the holiness of Jesus. So as long as we keep our faith in Jesus and follow the leading of the Holy Spirit, we will be walking in the light, and the blood of Jesus will cleanse us from all sin.

Wow, Oscar. That was beautiful! Can I quote you in my book on grace?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Wow, Oscar. That was beautiful! Can I quote you in my book on grace?

Yep. You don't have to use my name. Just take it as yours.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Yep. You don't have to use my name. Just take it as yours.

Thanks, I just created a document called Grace according to Oscar.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Thanks, I just created a document called Grace according to Oscar.

Why did I think of "The World According to Garp" when I read that??

 

[1stcenturylady]

Why did I think of "The World According to Garp" when I read that??

Silly man!

 

[com7fy8]

What Scriptures are used to advocate the Holiness teachings of the groups like Nazarenes and Wesleyans?

I do not know what they understand about holiness, plus I would say individual members can have different ideas . . . maybe what they discover as they grow and mature as children of God, while others might not be truly saved and might have mainly doctrinal ideas.

demanding that people be sinlessly perfect.

It depends on what you consider to be sin. There are people who are very into do's and don'ts, while others are concerned with how to relate in love, and others can be about what is right in feelings and emotions, and others are concerned with how our character . . . our nature . . . is becoming. I would tend to go with holiness being about God changing our nature so we become like Him in His love > 1 John 4:17.

many Christians are too worldly

If we count on ourselves to develop our ideas and ways, we will become more and more worldy . . . either giving in to lusts for pleasures and convenience, or congratulating ourselves that we are so right and with this comes looking down on others.

Holiness of God's love includes how we have become immune to sin-sick drives and interests >

"And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires." (Galatians 5:24)

And holiness of Jesus love makes us humble . . . not conceitedly looking down on anyone else, but being strong with compassion >

"He can have compassion on those who are ignorant and going astray, since he himself is also subject to weakness." (Hebrews 5:2)

I want to see holiness promoted in church without being legalistic or holier than thou.

What matters is if we present what really is holiness.

My personal understanding is something like this >

First, a person trusts in Jesus, and he or she is joined to Jesus >

"But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him." (1 Corinthians 6:17)

Faith includes our actual union with God. And in our union spiritual with God, His grace includes the effect of His almighty power of His love in our nature >

"Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world." (1 John 4:17)

Included in the process of becoming holy, then, is how God's love cures our nature. Also, Hebrews 12:4-11 says that God's correction makes us become "partakers of His holiness". This fits with how being "one spirit with Him" (1 Corinthians 6:17) has us sharing with Him in how He is holy. And God is holy in His way of loving, which is so superior to and better than how we humans have loved. We become "as He is" "in this world" (1 John 4:17), because of how His love in us perfects us and makes us holy in love. This includes how we become pleasing to our Heavenly Father > in His gentle and quiet love >

"rather let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the incorruptible beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is very precious in the sight of God." (1 Peter 3:4)

So, we trust God to make us deeply and pleasantly quiet and humble. And in His quietness and rest we share with him in His own almighty immunity against any and all sorts of fears and personality torments and pleasure lusts and selfish ways of reacting to not getting pleasure and convenience. Instead, we share with God, and do not give in, also, to boredom and loneliness and depression and bitterness and hurts which would violate us and degrade us from being quiet and sweetly and sensitively sharing with God in His love.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Silly man!

The manager of the Budgeting organisation where I am the board chairperson told me that during an interview of a prospective employee when I said that I had made a cup of instant coffee to give me the strength to make a cup of real coffee. I think she looked sideways at me the other day when I said that I had got a parking ticket and pleaded insanity. I told the Judge, "Who in their right mind would park on the passing lane?" I said that when two staff members were getting a bit heated at each other and the tension was broken when they laughed!

 

[1stcenturylady]

The manager of the Budgeting organisation where I am the board chairperson told me that during an interview of a prospective employee when I said that I had made a cup of instant coffee to give me the strength to make a cup of real coffee. I think she looked sideways at me the other day when I said that I had got a parking ticket and pleaded insanity. I told the Judge, "Who in their right mind would park on the passing lane?" I said that when two staff members were getting a bit heated at each other and the tension was broken when they laughed!

I've got to know what the judge did!

P.S. I'm off to bed. Nitie nite

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I've got to know what the judge did!

P.S. I'm off to bed. Nitie nite

The judge recommended that he park his car at on the grass verse at the side of the motorway. I tried that but every time I started off to go anywhere I had to start at 60mph! So I parked in the middle of the motorway, but had to shoo cars off my driveway! I then parked it in a tow away zone, but when I came back to it the whole zone had disappeared!

 

[1stcenturylady]

The judge recommended that he park his car at on the grass verse at the side of the motorway. I tried that but every time I started off to go anywhere I had to start at 60mph! So I parked in the middle of the motorway, but had to shoo cars off my driveway! I then parked it in a tow away zone, but when I came back to it the whole zone had disappeared!

The whole zone disappeared, including your car? LOL

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

The whole zone disappeared, including your car? LOL

Well, it was a tow-away zone! The Bermuda Triangle got sick of being too warm where it was so it shifted to Alaska. Now Santa Claus has disappeared...