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Holiness
- Thread starter Abiel
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elm0
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Abiel said:
I don't quite get the question. Isn't holiness a part of Christian life? Each individual is to strive for holiness, not a denomination as a whole...
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From this week's Salvationist (UK weekly magazine), reporting a speech by the TC:
'He called for Salvationists to reaffirm belief in the holiness teaching of the Army, emphasising the importance of the doctrine of sanctification that has virtually disappeared from evry other church in the UK. He distanced himself from those within the Army who may try to reintroduce the sacraments of Eucharist and baptism, saying 'This is an indication that we have failed to grasp the full meaning of the sanctified life. Once holiness is understood the fascination with sacramental ritual falls away. Lord, please give us another chance!'
'He called for Salvationists to reaffirm belief in the holiness teaching of the Army, emphasising the importance of the doctrine of sanctification that has virtually disappeared from evry other church in the UK. He distanced himself from those within the Army who may try to reintroduce the sacraments of Eucharist and baptism, saying 'This is an indication that we have failed to grasp the full meaning of the sanctified life. Once holiness is understood the fascination with sacramental ritual falls away. Lord, please give us another chance!'
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Rebirth In Flames
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Regarding the speech by the TC:
Im one of the many Salvationists who is trying to reintroduce the sacraments such as the Eucharist, (bread and juice), and baptism. The fact that the TC basically says that because I want to take part in those sacraments I have failed to grasp the full meaning of the sanctified life, I take that as a direct hit and insult to my faith in Christ and say that he/she is broadly misjudging the soldiers that are fighting right along side him/her. If anything, Id say that since the TC is so adamant NOT to introduce those sacraments that our Lord took part in himself, he/she needs to redirect their attention on their own walk and find out what it is within themselves that wants nothing to do with it; i.e. what is this fear really spawned by?
I do not support the sacraments as a way of salvation, nor do I accept them to earn any favor either by men or by God. However, I take part in them because I feel that they are an outward expression of my sanctification within, which is the same reason I wear (the sacrament of) my uniform in a humble and holy reverence for not just the faith I profess, but as an expression of my love for my Father. For a leader in the Army to condone a New Testament sacrament, and yet support another as if one holds more merit than the other, is to indirectly declare their utter hypocrisy. (Note: I say that boldly because I feel that hypocrisy needs to be corrected instantly due to the fact that many in the unsaved world are watching us and are holding us accountable... seeing as how we are called to strive to be blameless in the eyes of men, I will correct my brothers out of love in a heart beat in the name of Christ if I see them stumble.)
Many in the post-modern culture, (or the immerging church), are looking for a no-holds-barred religion...a radical religion... kids my age want something real and unrestrained by rules and legalistic doctrines, dogmas, and church politics. We want fellowship, we want baptism, we want the communion, we want to be out in the streets evangelizing with all of our heart body and soul, ...we want the kind of religion that is described in the New Testament that our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ took part in! Radical? Yes, but only radical because we as Christians have changed so much and become something very different than what we started out as back in New Testament days. If I claim to follow Jesus, to be His disciple, then I want to do everything He tells me to do...the second I justify NOT doing something that He tells me very plainly I should do in remembrance of Him, is the second I have drifted away from being a True disciple, and have given into being a disciple of myself and my own selfish version of Christs teachings. If Jesus said it then its truth, if He tells me to do it then I want to do it with no exceptions or political restraints! If I claim to be a disciple of Christ then I want to strive to be a disciple of Christ in its truest and most unrestrained form!
Now it may be different in other countries, but as far as the U.S. is concerned theres going to be a revolution regarding these things, and the emerging church is going to lead it. Underneath the flying banner of the Salvation Army Ill walk with my finger pointed up to God, my heart set ablaze with the passion of the Holy Spirit, and Ill do it all in the name of Jesus Christ! May God help us!
Im one of the many Salvationists who is trying to reintroduce the sacraments such as the Eucharist, (bread and juice), and baptism. The fact that the TC basically says that because I want to take part in those sacraments I have failed to grasp the full meaning of the sanctified life, I take that as a direct hit and insult to my faith in Christ and say that he/she is broadly misjudging the soldiers that are fighting right along side him/her. If anything, Id say that since the TC is so adamant NOT to introduce those sacraments that our Lord took part in himself, he/she needs to redirect their attention on their own walk and find out what it is within themselves that wants nothing to do with it; i.e. what is this fear really spawned by?
I do not support the sacraments as a way of salvation, nor do I accept them to earn any favor either by men or by God. However, I take part in them because I feel that they are an outward expression of my sanctification within, which is the same reason I wear (the sacrament of) my uniform in a humble and holy reverence for not just the faith I profess, but as an expression of my love for my Father. For a leader in the Army to condone a New Testament sacrament, and yet support another as if one holds more merit than the other, is to indirectly declare their utter hypocrisy. (Note: I say that boldly because I feel that hypocrisy needs to be corrected instantly due to the fact that many in the unsaved world are watching us and are holding us accountable... seeing as how we are called to strive to be blameless in the eyes of men, I will correct my brothers out of love in a heart beat in the name of Christ if I see them stumble.)
Many in the post-modern culture, (or the immerging church), are looking for a no-holds-barred religion...a radical religion... kids my age want something real and unrestrained by rules and legalistic doctrines, dogmas, and church politics. We want fellowship, we want baptism, we want the communion, we want to be out in the streets evangelizing with all of our heart body and soul, ...we want the kind of religion that is described in the New Testament that our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ took part in! Radical? Yes, but only radical because we as Christians have changed so much and become something very different than what we started out as back in New Testament days. If I claim to follow Jesus, to be His disciple, then I want to do everything He tells me to do...the second I justify NOT doing something that He tells me very plainly I should do in remembrance of Him, is the second I have drifted away from being a True disciple, and have given into being a disciple of myself and my own selfish version of Christs teachings. If Jesus said it then its truth, if He tells me to do it then I want to do it with no exceptions or political restraints! If I claim to be a disciple of Christ then I want to strive to be a disciple of Christ in its truest and most unrestrained form!
Now it may be different in other countries, but as far as the U.S. is concerned theres going to be a revolution regarding these things, and the emerging church is going to lead it. Underneath the flying banner of the Salvation Army Ill walk with my finger pointed up to God, my heart set ablaze with the passion of the Holy Spirit, and Ill do it all in the name of Jesus Christ! May God help us!
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That is a very good post! I found the quoted portion of the speech odd to say the least, and am delighted that I am not alone. In the same speech he acknowledged that the army (in the UK?) has shrunk numerically every year since 1937.
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coalfarm
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Rebirth In Flames said:
REintroduce? The Salvation Army never practised the sacraments. How, then, can they be REintroduced.
There are many denominations and churches who say that the practise of the sacraments is an essential part of Christian living. Some even say that it is necessary to salvation.
Salvationists recognise that the sacraments are merely an outward expression or symbol of an inward grace. Therefore, as a prophetic reminder to the rest of the Body that these are not essential, the Salvation Army foregoes the blessing of these symbols.
With regards to holiness, i think the TC is supposing that the reason salvationists in Britain are advocating so strongly for the introduction of the sacraments is that they are not experiencing the inward grace of holiness without the outward symbol.
My experience growing up in the Salvation Army is that the doctrine of whole sanctification is at best looked on as something most Christians won't attain. Most of the time people exibit a reluctance to believe that someone can live without intentional habitual sin for the rest of their lives.
The belief is far from the 'privelige of all believers'.
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It is the case that in the early days of the army sacrements were practiced. They were dropped for several reasons. Firstly the one we all know - that too many relied on them to 'prove ' their religion was real. Another reason was because they wanted to avoid a controversy about whether women were fit to minister the sacrements.
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There is an ad-hoc change occuring within the army. I have had discussions on this board with folk whose Corps are going down to the beach to baptise. Fellowship meals and last supper re-enactments are happening. If there is a policy (which as far as I understand it is, do these things if you wish, but not in army halls), it is being stretched all over the world. Hence the UK TCs speech, I presume 'He distanced himself from those within the Army who may try to reintroduce the sacraments of Eucharist and baptism'
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InTheFlame
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Holiness... hmmm interesting one.
This is one of the 'primitive SA' teachings that from the moment I read about it, has intrigued and inspired me. I really need to sit down and study the concept in depth some time (Samuel Brengle's Helps to Holiness would probably be a good start, eh?). It's important to understand, when I talk about my fascination with the holiness teachings, that this is NOT really part of many denom's teachings, and not a concept I grew up with. Personally, I think the truth lies part-way between 'holiness doctrine' and the 'progressive sanctification' (if anyone's interested, I'll see if I can find some good links that explain both simply, but well) I grew up with.
The basic foundation of holiness doctrine, to me, is this - that when we walk in tune with God, we do not sin. It's when we allow ourselves to get out of tune with God, that we begin to sin... because we hear our selfishness louder than we hear God. I have to say that in my experience, it's true. I've experienced amazing things when I HAVE walked through my life with God. He's worked through me in all sorts of ways. An open channel leaves God a lot of room to work!
It's the opening up that's the struggle most of the time... I think it requires a deep 'heart' knowledge of the goodness that God can bring into our lives, and a trust that He always works for our good.
This is one of the 'primitive SA' teachings that from the moment I read about it, has intrigued and inspired me. I really need to sit down and study the concept in depth some time (Samuel Brengle's Helps to Holiness would probably be a good start, eh?). It's important to understand, when I talk about my fascination with the holiness teachings, that this is NOT really part of many denom's teachings, and not a concept I grew up with. Personally, I think the truth lies part-way between 'holiness doctrine' and the 'progressive sanctification' (if anyone's interested, I'll see if I can find some good links that explain both simply, but well) I grew up with.
The basic foundation of holiness doctrine, to me, is this - that when we walk in tune with God, we do not sin. It's when we allow ourselves to get out of tune with God, that we begin to sin... because we hear our selfishness louder than we hear God. I have to say that in my experience, it's true. I've experienced amazing things when I HAVE walked through my life with God. He's worked through me in all sorts of ways. An open channel leaves God a lot of room to work!
It's the opening up that's the struggle most of the time... I think it requires a deep 'heart' knowledge of the goodness that God can bring into our lives, and a trust that He always works for our good.
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