Holiness VS Worldliness

SaintJoeNow · Mar 22, 2015

now faith said:
Saint Joe,I may be mistaken but did Twin mention sanctification?

I may be on the wrong thought train, I was trying to think of other means other than
crucified in flesh daily.

I don't want to interfere with the premise.

There were several good biblically supported comments on holiness and sanctification. They missed the point of the OP which is how worldliness contrasts with holiness. Holiness demands separation from the world as God is separate from His creation, the creation is fallen and must be purged and we have been saved from it's destruction, saved from Hell, and we should be acting like we are separated from it by God "come out from among them, and be ye separate saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing, and I will receive you" Christians who think they are being holy while they are sitting in front of tv watching things which glorify sin and flaunt as much nudity as they can get away with are fooling themselves, and the same goes for listening to music which is not consecrated in word an music with sound doctrine to make melody in our hearts to the Lord.

Listen to the sermon on youtube recommended by rockytopva above...it's excellent preaching if it doesn't make you sick by talking about the things I am talking about and saying them in a much clearer and pointes way with lots of biblical chapter and verse references.

now faith · Mar 22, 2015

SaintJoeNow said:
As for handling pagan symbols on the dollar bill, Jesus was presented with the same thing when his enemies tried to trap him in His words by asking them if they should pay taxes to Ceasar when everybody knew Ceasar held himself up as god over the Roman Empire.

Jesus asked them whose picture was on the coin, and they answered Ceasar's. Jesus told them to render to Ceasar the things that are Ceasar's and render to God the things that are God's. He told them to obey the laws of their government while they obeyed God.
Jesus did not say "it does not matter, nobody is perfect so don't worry about it"

Another thread maybe,but you cannot serve God and Pagan idols due to the render unto Ceasar clause.

This is used far to much out of context.

Obey the law of the land?

We don't want to go there in what the law allows today.

Acts: 4. 16. Saying, What shall we do to these men? for that indeed a notable miracle hath been done by them is manifest to all them that dwell in Jerusalem; and we cannot deny it. 17. But that it spread no further among the people, let us straitly threaten them, that they speak henceforth to no man in this name. 18. And they called them, and commanded them not to speak at all nor teach in the name of Jesus. 19. But Peter and John answered and said unto them, Whether it be right in the sight of God to hearken unto you more than unto God, judge ye. 20. For we cannot but speak the things which we have seen and heard. 21. So when they had further threatened them, they let them go, finding nothing how they might punish them, because of the people: for all men glorified God for that which was done.

Peter and John disobeyed the authority of the land, they would not compromise Christ.

In render unto Caesar we must look at the circumstances,in his mighty wisdom our Lord provided a answer to a catch 22 trap that was set to destroy him.

now faith · Mar 22, 2015

SaintJoeNow said:
There were several good biblically supported comments on holiness and sanctification. They missed the point of the OP which is how worldliness contrasts with holiness. Holiness demands separation from the world as God is separate from His creation, the creation is fallen and must be purged and we have been saved from it's destruction, saved from Hell, and we should be acting like we are separated from it by God "come out from among them, and be ye separate saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing, and I will receive you" Christians who think they are being holy while they are sitting in front of tv watching things which glorify sin and flaunt as much nudity as they can get away with are fooling themselves, and the same goes for listening to music which is not consecrated in word an music with sound doctrine to make melody in our hearts to the Lord.

Listen to the sermon on youtube recommended by rockytopva above...it's excellent preaching if it doesn't make you sick by talking about the things I am talking about and saying them in a much clearer and pointes way with lots of biblical chapter and verse references.

I will listen to the sermon,but would you consider the verse we are in the world but not of the world?[paraphrase] Indeed we are caught between the temporal realm and the Heavenly.

We are holy in God's eyes through Christ Jesus,not by any other works.

now faith · Mar 22, 2015

I must disagree with this sermon.

It is a theology of convict and challenge,in that world you are never good enough.

The ideology is we are to be more Christ like,by be he holy because I am Holy.

I completely agree to the holy aspect and aspirations to walk in accord with Christ.

In the true sense to try to remove ourselves from the world,sets a two fold divide in the body.

If our Gospel be hid it is hidden to the lost.... a Gospel of inclusion.

Then we must ask ourselves who did Christ die for,sinners or saints.

This may be a personal view but I sit under this theology and watched many unsaved walk out the church door over blue jeans,or make up or shorts,or any other thing that was deemed of the world.

Not enough legalism?

Legalism is demonic.

Matthew: 12. 2. But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day. 3. But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him; 4. How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests? 5. Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless? 6. But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple. 7. But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless. 8. For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day. 9. And when he was departed thence, he went into their synagogue: 10. And, behold, there was a man which had his hand withered. And they asked him, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath days? that they might accuse him.

rockytopva · Mar 22, 2015

I do not mind the occasional sermon on prosperity... But if everytime a minister gets up to preach it is a message on increase I tend to turn the channel. Christ Jesus did not dwell on the fact that he wanted everyone to be rich.

now faith · Mar 22, 2015

rockytopva said:
I do not mind the occasional sermon on prosperity... But if everytime a minister gets up to preach it is a message on increase I tend to turn the channel. Christ Jesus did not dwell on the fact that he wanted everyone to be rich.

What's your point?

rockytopva · Mar 22, 2015

now faith said:
What's your point?

Ever now and then a message on repentance is in order.

twin1954 · Mar 22, 2015

SaintJoeNow said:
Did you listen to the sermon by Rev. Tom Allen recommended by rockytopva? Can you?

I will try but I detest legalism and if is I will turn it off.

twin1954 · Mar 22, 2015

SaintJoeNow said:
The Bible applies standards, I'm only pointing out the illustration contrasting the holiness in Moses from God against the worldliness of the Israelites who turned their backs on Moses and God to indulge in dancing naked with singing and partying. You can't tell me not to say what the Bible says. Holiness is the standard God calls for. Where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

Yes it does apply standards. Standards which no one but Christ can meet.

In the illustration of the Hebrews dancing around the calf you are missing the fact that they were not a saved people. Few in their history were.

Also you seem to forget that all the saved are new creations in Christ and are His sheep. Sheep do what comes natural to sheep. You lead sheep and they follow. They follow their Great Shepherd. If you try to drive sheep you will do nothing but scatter them.

Goats, on the other hand, must be driven. You must use the whip of rules and strict standards of conduct in order to keep them in line. Unsaved religious people love rules and standards because it feeds self-righteous pride to think we meet them. It gives a sense of holier than thou. The Lord called it the leaven of the Pharisees.

Moreover you destroy holiness when you lower it to a point that can be met by us.

When we are told to take every thought captive it isn't a standard that is set but an admonition to strive to honor the Lord and learn of Him.

The minute you set standards you set yourself up as judge of others.

rockytopva · Mar 22, 2015

twin1954 said:
I will try but I detest legalism and if is I will turn it off.

The Rev Tom Allen preached those messages in the late 70's. He preached gently but with a terrific amount of conviction. After the messages the people would meet in large rooms for prayer. I remember my foster brother saying that he never prayed so hard than he did after those meetings. Those meetings were a joy to my heart as I would experience the soul refreshing clean of sanctification after the prayers.

twin1954 · Mar 22, 2015

(Col 2:6) As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:

(Col 2:7) Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.

(Col 2:8) Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

(Col 2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

(Col 2:10) And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

How did you receive Christ by faith or by works? By faith of course. How is it that a man may spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit? By setting standards that draw you into a hope in yourself and not in Christ.

What does it mean to be complete? Nothing more needed. The Artist has signed His work and it is finished. He will not strike the hammer to His chisel again in order to finish the sculpture.

(Col 2:16) Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

(Col 2:17) Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

(Col 2:18) Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

(Col 2:19) And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.

(Col 2:20) Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

(Col 2:21) (Touch not; taste not; handle not;

(Col 2:22) Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men?

(Col 2:23) Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

Read this passage over several times. Religious rigidity is a show of wisdom in will worship. It does nothing but satisfy the flesh.

Oh how good I feel when I act like I am holy in myself. It is a false spirituality and a show.

Trust that Christ is enough for the Father and enough for you and go and live in this world as believers whose only hope is the Lord Jesus Christ. You will not need to be driven to a godly life it will come naturally.

Rolf Barnhard made this statement once: We have got far too many saved people today, What we need is to get some people lost. [Not a direct quote]

If you want to tell the difference between religion and true faith here it a plumbline to judge by: religion is always about things, such as is this thing or that thing sin, am I living right, how much should I give, should I watch TV or movies and all sorts of things. True faith is about a Person, the Lord Jesus Christ and faith in Him.

now faith · Mar 22, 2015

Amen and Amen

SaintJoeNow · Mar 22, 2015

now faith said:
I must disagree with this sermon.

It is a theology of convict and challenge,in that world you are never good enough.

The ideology is we are to be more Christ like,by be he holy because I am Holy.

I completely agree to the holy aspect and aspirations to walk in accord with Christ.

In the true sense to try to remove ourselves from the world,sets a two fold divide in the body.

If our Gospel be hid it is hidden to the lost.... a Gospel of inclusion.

Then we must ask ourselves who did Christ die for,sinners or saints.

This may be a personal view but I sit under this theology and watched many unsaved walk out the church door over blue jeans,or make up or shorts,or any other thing that was deemed of the world.

Not enough legalism?

Legalism is demonic.

Matthew: 12. 2. But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day. 3. But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him; 4. How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests? 5. Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless? 6. But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple. 7. But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless. 8. For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day. 9. And when he was departed thence, he went into their synagogue: 10. And, behold, there was a man which had his hand withered. And they asked him, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath days? that they might accuse him.

so what do you do with "come out from among them and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing and I will receive you". ?? Do you think about that verse while your sitting in a movie theatre with a hundred people who are on their way to Hell as they wait for the partial nudity scenes?

Do you think about that verse as you listen to country or rock music where they sing about the wonder and beauty of cheap sexual encounters in which the lifetime price of marriage can be forgotten?

This isn't about legalism, it's about holiness. You cannot achieve holiness by following a set of rules, but true holiness will give you a repulsion for anything that promotes or tolerates sin. Holiness sets apart from sin, it is repulsed by sin, sin is repulsed by holiness. Far too many Christians today are compromising their holiness to allow their minds to be filled with words and pictures from people who are making money by promoting sin as entertainment. When Christians do that, the salt has lost it's savor and Christians have abandoned their testimony for the sake of passing time with ungodly entertainments. I don't want to fight with you.

SaintJoeNow · Mar 22, 2015

They didn't walk out over blue jeans, they walked out because they are proud and their mind is darkened by Satan. I wear blue jeans to church pretty much every service, and my pastor always says dress your best fro the Lord in his house on Sundays. It bugs my pastor that I wear blue jeans, but suits are just too much of a hassle for me at this time. I don't get mad when he preaches about standards of dress. When I put my clothes on, that is what people see and I am representing Jesus Christ. I'm not going to be wearing skin tight blue jeans to show everything God gave me. I wear comfortable and not baggy, and certainly not tight jeans. Modesty is in line with holiness, and desiring to please God in everything I do including the way I dress is in line with holiness. Permissiveness is a slide away from holiness into worldliness. Enjoy the party if that's what you want to do, there is pleasure in sin for a season.

SaintJoeNow · Mar 22, 2015

twin1954 said:
(Col 2:6) As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:

(Col 2:7) Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.

(Col 2:8) Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

(Col 2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

(Col 2:10) And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

How did you receive Christ by faith or by works? By faith of course. How is it that a man may spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit? By setting standards that draw you into a hope in yourself and not in Christ.

What does it mean to be complete? Nothing more needed. The Artist has signed His work and it is finished. He will not strike the hammer to His chisel again in order to finish the sculpture.

(Col 2:16) Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

(Col 2:17) Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

(Col 2:18) Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

(Col 2:19) And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.

(Col 2:20) Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

(Col 2:21) (Touch not; taste not; handle not;

(Col 2:22) Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men?

(Col 2:23) Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

Read this passage over several times. Religious rigidity is a show of wisdom in will worship. It does nothing but satisfy the flesh.

Oh how good I feel when I act like I am holy in myself. It is a false spirituality and a show.

Trust that Christ is enough for the Father and enough for you and go and live in this world as believers whose only hope is the Lord Jesus Christ. You will not need to be driven to a godly life it will come naturally.

Rolf Barnhard made this statement once: We have got far too many saved people today, What we need is to get some people lost. [Not a direct quote]

If you want to tell the difference between religion and true faith here it a plumbline to judge by: religion is always about things, such as is this thing or that thing sin, am I living right, how much should I give, should I watch TV or movies and all sorts of things. True faith is about a Person, the Lord Jesus Christ and faith in Him.

You are misusing these passages as if they are a call for us to be permissive in pleasing ourselves rather than to pursue personal holiness. Rejecting judgment over "Meat, drink, respect of a new moon, " does not mean "go ahead and enjoy the things of the world, the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh, the pride of life, as long as you don't love them because you are under grace and all things are lawful for you"

It seems you are trying to say the Bible is more about "enjoy your freedom" than it is about Jesus.

SaintJoeNow · Mar 22, 2015

twin1954 said:
(Col 2:6) As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:

(Col 2:7) Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.

(Col 2:8) Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

(Col 2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

(Col 2:10) And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

How did you receive Christ by faith or by works? By faith of course. How is it that a man may spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit? By setting standards that draw you into a hope in yourself and not in Christ.

What does it mean to be complete? Nothing more needed. The Artist has signed His work and it is finished. He will not strike the hammer to His chisel again in order to finish the sculpture.

(Col 2:16) Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

(Col 2:17) Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

(Col 2:18) Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

(Col 2:19) And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.

(Col 2:20) Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

(Col 2:21) (Touch not; taste not; handle not;

(Col 2:22) Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men?

(Col 2:23) Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

Read this passage over several times. Religious rigidity is a show of wisdom in will worship. It does nothing but satisfy the flesh.

Oh how good I feel when I act like I am holy in myself. It is a false spirituality and a show.

Trust that Christ is enough for the Father and enough for you and go and live in this world as believers whose only hope is the Lord Jesus Christ. You will not need to be driven to a godly life it will come naturally.

Rolf Barnhard made this statement once: We have got far too many saved people today, What we need is to get some people lost. [Not a direct quote]

If you want to tell the difference between religion and true faith here it a plumbline to judge by: religion is always about things, such as is this thing or that thing sin, am I living right, how much should I give, should I watch TV or movies and all sorts of things. True faith is about a Person, the Lord Jesus Christ and faith in Him.

If you don't want to do all you can possibly do to be holy, then don't do it. In my Bible, God tells me to be holy so I am going to do everything I can do to be holy, and that means I'm not going to be listening to any ungodly music or watching any ungodly television or movies. If the music and movies are not made for the consecrated purpose of honoring our Savior and reaching out to those who are lost, dying, and on their way to Hell to promote the gospel of Jesus Christ and the name of the Lord, then it's worldly and you can have it. I want nothing to do with it. God did not give me time to squander it away until I get to heaven when I deserve to burn in Hell as much as most of the people in the world around me who are dying and in danger of the fire of Hell now...and who cares that they are? "Pray without ceasing" is what happens in holiness, and I'm praying for you and my lost neighbors now. You can't be praying without ceasing when you give your mind over to entertaining amusements (amuse, a-muse, means "no thinking") God wants us to think in a focused way to keep our minds, thoughts, desires, actions, and words consecrated to His service. That's what we will be doing in heaven, serving God, and He does not want us to wait until we get to heaven before we serve him, passing our time in amusements while most of the world is lost, dying, and walking on thin ice that is quickly melting over the fire of Hell....and who cares?

SaintJoeNow · Mar 22, 2015

rockytopva said:
I do not mind the occasional sermon on prosperity... But if everytime a minister gets up to preach it is a message on increase I tend to turn the channel. Christ Jesus did not dwell on the fact that he wanted everyone to be rich.

Our riches are guaranteed in heaven. Jesus never wanted everybody to be rich on earth. All of the apostles except John were tortured to death or executed in poverty, and John survived being boiled in oil which was a death sentence so he could not be executed a second time and was exiled to the Isle of Patmos where God gave him the book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ commanding him to write it down. The apostle Paul had nothing but the clothes on his back, and he even lost those at times. He did get financial support and he did encourage financial support for others, but he had to make tents to support himself at times on his journeys.

All of the "health, wealth, and prosperity" doctrines are for people with itching ears. God promises us suffering and persecution if we follow Jesus, not riches and health. He gives joy in serving Him, he does not promise happiness from the world.

I hope I didn't offend you with that.

SaintJoeNow · Mar 22, 2015

now faith said:
I must disagree with this sermon.

It is a theology of convict and challenge,in that world you are never good enough.

The ideology is we are to be more Christ like,by be he holy because I am Holy.

I completely agree to the holy aspect and aspirations to walk in accord with Christ.

In the true sense to try to remove ourselves from the world,sets a two fold divide in the body.

If our Gospel be hid it is hidden to the lost.... a Gospel of inclusion.

Then we must ask ourselves who did Christ die for,sinners or saints.

This may be a personal view but I sit under this theology and watched many unsaved walk out the church door over blue jeans,or make up or shorts,or any other thing that was deemed of the world.

Not enough legalism?

Legalism is demonic.

Matthew: 12. 2. But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day. 3. But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him; 4. How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests? 5. Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless? 6. But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple. 7. But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless. 8. For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day. 9. And when he was departed thence, he went into their synagogue: 10. And, behold, there was a man which had his hand withered. And they asked him, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath days? that they might accuse him.

Instead of making your own sermon, why not give a direct quote from the sermon you disagree with and tell us why you disagree with it? What is it that you disagree with? What did the preacher say in that sermon that you think is wrong, and use a verbatim quote in your accusation to prevent the appearance of making false allegations.

rockytopva · Mar 22, 2015

SaintJoeNow said:
I hope I didn't offend you with that.

I saw both my mother and grandmother thorugh the valley of the shadow of death and the whole time that is all I heard was topics on my period of 'increase.' The only gospel channel the hospital had was David Cerullo's INSP network. I do not mind the occasional message on prosperity but my goodness the bible has more to say to us than getting rich!

SaintJoeNow · Mar 22, 2015

rockytopva said:
I saw both my mother and grandmother thorugh the valley of the shadow of death and the whole time that is all I heard was topics on my period of 'increase.' The only gospel channel the hospital had was David Cerullo's INSP network. I do not mind the occasional message on prosperity but my goodness the bible has more to say to us than getting rich!

The people getting rich off of that stuff are the preachers who tickle the ears of people whose affections are on the things of the world rather than laying up treasure in heaven. They basically say, "send us money because we are serving God and He will bless you for helping".....and they get a lot of money from mass advertising on tv and radio that way.

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