Holiness VS Worldliness

twin1954 said:

First of all you need to understand that God has determined the end from the beginning. Isa. 46:10 He has determined that this world be destroyed by fire.

Therefore for us to understand what the Scriptures are dealing with is to know the spiritual truth not the physical or worldly. The Scriptures deal with religion not with the natural physical things.

The account of Moses and the Hebrews that made the golden calf are meant to teach us spiritual truth not physical. It wasn't because Moses was holy that God spoke to Him but that he was a chosen vessel and raised up to the work that was determined for him. He was prepared for that work and sent to it. You may remember that when he listened to his father-in -law he lost a great portion of the Spirit that was with him. Num. 11:17 Things were never the same with Moses after that.

The holiness that Moses wore and which they could not look upon was not Moses holiness but the holiness of the Lord. Moreover it wore off.

Now the calf that the Hebrews made do you recall what they named it? They called it Jehovah. They pretended to worship Jehovah but all the while they worshipped a false god. That is worldliness. Religion will teach and entice you to things but never to Christ alone. Just because it is called "Christian" doesn't make it so.

Religion is natural to man and he will always seek to worship that which satisfies his nature. Rom. 1:18-25 He will run to this religion or that until he finds one that suits his ideas of what and how things should be. But he will not come to Christ that he might have life. John 5:40

Moses and the golden calf is not intended to teach us about holiness but about replacing true faith with false religion.

Now what you are trying to explore is the truth of sanctification. I have much to say concerning that but since as usual it goes against the majority of religious thought I will abstain until the Lord leads me to expound on it.

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Ok, now you are moving in a direction I have been hoping to explore more of in this thread, and I'll try to offer some encouragements in that direction without being too disagreeable. I am not trying to explore the truth of sanctification in this thread. Many have posted wonderful detailed biblically supported thoughts in that area. I am looking for to explore the meaning of "the things of the world" which we are told directly in first John not to love as it would be in direct opposition to God. "Friendship with the world is enmity with God". Looking again at the children of Israel who had totally abandoned all desire of holiness while Moses was soaking up God's holiness so much that he glowed with it fearsomely, the children of Israel show a love for the world and things of the world.


God's commentary about them begins in Exodus 32:7And the Lord said unto Moses, Go, get thee down; for thy people, which thou broughtest out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves: 8They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them: they have made them a molten calf, and have worshipped it, and have sacrificed thereunto, and said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which have brought thee up out of the land of Egypt. 9And the Lord said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people: 10Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation.


First, God said they were Moses's people. At that point, God had disowned them. They had corrupted themselves. They had become disobedient to God and had turned aside out of the way He commanded them. They made an idol and sacrificed to it and worshipped it as their gods. They were stubborn, "stiffnecked", and God asked Moses to leave Him alone while He destroyed them. (My own little personal translation of God's Word there, kidding of course. I would not dare to call my own commentary a translation of God's Word any more than I would call my own translation of the originals God's Word. I fear God and have no desire to promote myself by claiming to be His translator.)...back to the topic at hand....

The first thing Moses observed was the noise. Joshua thought it was a noise of war. Moses said no, it was singing. They were making music in their corrupted way. It was not holy music. It was not godly music. It was music they were enjoying as they danced naked around their golden calf idol. Now on this point I want to make a comparison by referring to a rock and roll song which was one of my favorites and one which I won an award (nothing big, but I earned it) for singing before I renounced all rock and roll music as inspired by devils and all my pleasures in it as carnal, fleshly, soulish and not spiritual.

I forget the title, and I think it was by Deep Purple, and the first line was...

"Ain't nobody gonna take my car, I'm gonna race it to the ground....." ...then...
Ain't nobody gonna stop me now I'm gonna break the speed of sound
Oooo, it's a killer machine, it's got everything

(forgot a couple lines here)

then it screams....

"I LOVE IT! I NEED IT! I BlEED IT! All day, all night, I'm a highway star.....

That was the name of the song, "Highway Star", pretty sure.

Ok, so how does that compare with the children of Israel and their newly made idol? Was not the car this man singing about actually his idol? He identified his whole life and being with owning and using it. He honored it with many compliments the same as the children of Egypt honored their idol by saying it was the gods that brought them out of Egypt. The man was singing for and about his car.....and I think we all know how young women at those rock and roll concerts like to disrobe during the music performance. In Exodus 32:25.."Moses saw that the people were naked (for Aaron had made them naked unto their shame unto their enemies). Moses wasted no time in calling for those who served the Lord to separate themselves, and they killed 3000 of the stiffnecked people.

The thing I want to explore in this thread is how the concept of loving the world and the things of the world is very much about material things and indulgences of entertainments which are not consecrated to God as Moses, in verse 29 had said for the men to do when he called them to separate themselves as being on the Lord's side in before Moses told them to go through the crowd killing by sword until about three thousand of them had been killed (verse 28).

Now before anybody gets up in the air on me, I am by no means calling for violence against anybody. We live in a different time, we live under a new covenant, and God acted in Exodus at that time for a specific purpose specific to the historical surroundings. What I'm doing is trying to show that to love the world and the things of the world is all about material things and passing time in ways which are self-indulgent for fun or exhilaration of feeling which is self promoting or idol promoting and not consecrated for the honor of God's name in word, substance, and action.

We have to love people, even if they love the world and things of the world, because we certainly were one of them before we were saved, and in far too many ways we resemble them today. I keep saying I love this new computer, and then I have to repent of it and say it's only a thing of the world, it's not going to heaven, it's going to be burned as hay and stubble because it is of the world, an invention of man, and it is not of God. I have consecrated this computer to God, and committed all of my works to Him and in so doing I am claiming His promise that my thoughts will be established. It is my desire that my words be His Words as His words will not return to Him void and they will remain forever settled in heaven. I want my life to be honoring to Him, and the things I do and say to produce a record of things that will remain honorable by God's grace in heaven throughout eternity. I want Him to bend me, break me, mold me, conform me to His image because I know my own heart is full of darkness, deceit, and wickedness.....self-centered, proud, worldly and my own heart deceives me. My own mouth and my own actions prove to the world far too often how deprived I am even when I think I am all that Mr. good and wonderful (of course the people who know me do not think I'm all that good and wonderful...why do you think I have so much time on my hands to sit here on this computer?)

Ok, the cat's out of the bag and I'm sure a lot of people are ready to attack me for saying rock and roll music is inspired by devils. "Don't mess with my music, man"

commenting further on the world, and the things that are in the world, the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life........using that old rock song and the Israelites dancing naked and making music with their idol as illustrations....

The Lust of the Flesh.

The Israelites sacrificed to their new idol, that means they were eating, probably much like a bunch of happy pigs, they were dancing naked, flaunting their physical attractions and I think it's reasonable to assume they were lusting after the physical attractions of others as they danced. They were doing it continuously because they were compelled by the lust of the flesh to indulge themselves, they wanted more until they felt satisfied from it so they could fall asleep like fat happy cats.

In that old rock song, the lover of his car had an insatiable desire to "drive it into the ground" vowing that "nobody gonna stop me now". This insatiable desire is the lust of the flesh. We just can't get enough of a good thing. Things of the world are good for temporary pleasure. There is pleasure in sin for a season.


THE LUST OF THE EYES

This has more to do with what we see, or imagine, desiring while not actually indulging physically. God sees our thoughts and imaginations, He knows what we think about something when we look at it. If we are blind, He knows what were are imagining. I suppose this, in the children of Israel singing and dancing naked, would be how they were looking at each other, and how they were dreaming of the new life they were going to have free of the bondage of Egypt.

In that old rock and roll song, the lust of the eyes can be seen in how he imagines himself fulfilling the lust of his flesh. He thinks of all the great accomplishments he hopes to achieve, he sees himself as a "highway star"

The Pride of life.

The Israelites were soooo proud of the calf they made, they were sooooo proud of themselves. They really thought they were all that and a bag of chips. They felt so good about it that they took off their clothes.

The man in the old rock song was sooo proud of his car, so proud of being a highway star, so proud of his existence feeling like he was his own god the same as the Israelites had made themselves into their own gods by making a dead idol and calling it god.



Ok, now to any reader who may have found this interesting enough to read the last two long posts, feel free to dissect my attempts to divide and explain the differences between the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life. God has set the world in our hearts, and it's a very complicated things, and it sure is easy to love the world and the things that are in the world. When I talk like this, I feel convicted and guilty for my love of fishing. I don't need to fish to eat, I just love to fish. Then I have to renounce that love and commit the fishing to God as time apart with Him to enjoy His blessings and get away from the noise of the world, but them I sound like I'm making excuses for watering down holiness in my life rather than actively pursuing holiness. I'm supposed to be a fisher of men but I'm ticking away the time fishing for fish....and the fish are surely getting hungry now in the spring...pray for me

twin1954 said:

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They pretended to worship Jehovah but all the while they worshipped a false god. That is worldliness. Religion will teach and entice you to things but never to Christ alone. Just because it is called "Christian" doesn't make it so.

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Yielding to the enticement of things and false gods is certainly worldliness, and many Christians today yield to those enticements while, as you said very well with brevity which is the soul of wit, they pretend to be worshipping God while they are indulging in worldly pleasures and pursuits.




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I liked the quoted part of your post the best , except for saying the Israelites called their idol "Jehovah". They called it the gods that brought them out of Egypt, I assume that implied that each piece of gold donated by each person was a god and they melted them all together to make the calf and called it the gods that brought them out of Egypt. They had rejected Jehovah, they did not know Him even though He had shown Himself to them in his mighty acts to bring them out of Egypt.

Yielding to the enticement of things and false gods is certainly worldliness, and many Christians today yield to those enticements while, as you said, they pretend to be worshipping God while they are indulging in worldly pleasures and pursuits.

now faith said:

When we take a look at Romans 14,I believe it is for Jews still trying to live under the law.


Observing the ordinances of the law though they received Christ, Paul is teaching not to impose your faith on them as to cause them to fall.

Whatever is not done of Faith is sin.

Sanctification by works requires no faith yet they believed their ordinances we're sanctification.


Romans: 14. 1. Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations. 2. For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs. 3. Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him. 4. Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. 5. One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. 6. He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks. 7. For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself. 8. For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's. 9. For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living. 10. But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. 12. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God. 13. Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way. 14. I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean. -

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That has little to do with the discussion of the OP and the Biblical account of Moses and the children of Israel before and after they made a golden calf and had a party of ungodliness, getting so carried away in it that they disrobed.

The law was not given before Moses came down from the mountain with it. God had commanded the Israel's through Moses to do certain things, and they turned aside from God's commandment. Without obedience to God, there is no holiness. Partial obedience brings partial holiness, which is progressive if not continuing unholiness, acting like half of you belongs to the world and half of you to God rather than acting like the Holy Spirit that is in you sets you apart for God as so many of the dissertations on sanctification in this thread have elaborated.

The Title is Holiness vs Worldliness, and the example chosen to illustrate the contrast between the two refers to Moses whose holiness has gone down in history, remains in heaven, and was recommended when he appeared with Elijah talking with Jesus when he was transfigured and revealed His glory to Peter, James, and John.

Knowing that God has given us His Holy Spirit by which we are born again as His children is not an excuse for relaxing in the temporary pleasures of activities which are not consecrated to God. That is the same kind of relaxation exhibited by the children of Israel when the abandoned Moses and abandoned God and made their own gods and celebrated themselves in pride against God. It is the same relaxation taking God's goodness for granted which was kindling God's wrath when He told Moses to leave Him alone while His wrath boiled over to destroy the people He had brought out of the world to glorify His name in the earth.

now faith said:

Quote:Avid

There is a famous US $1 Silver Coin that was designed back then, and, when the coin was released for circulation, a school teacher lost her job. The image of "Lady Liberty" on the Morgan Silver Dollar was such a true likeness of the woman who was the model for that artist, that she was immediately recognizable, and was fired for violating a morality clause in the school district's policy (likely all over the country) that prohibited a teacher from modeling for an artist. UN Quote.



This is good stuff and has brought something to my mind.

Personally I detest anything pagan, such as Sun symbols,mystic symbols, or anything else statues of pagan gods if you get my drift.

Even in that I fail!
Why?

Every time I take a dollar out of my wallet,I present a Pagan icon, yes the pyramid with the eye.

So the Question is should we make a vow we cannot keep?
Can anyone live by the law Moses without breaking it?

No it is the law of liberty through Christ that has cleansed us,we cannot stay clear of the things of this world.

Ephesians: 2. 8. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9. Not of works, lest any man should boast. - Bible Offline

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I'm not talking about living by the law of Moses, I'm talking about obedience to God. Nobody (at least not me) has implied that we can live sinlessly while in our body of death. God still calls us to holiness in word, thought, imaginations, and actions. He wants us to bring every single thought into captivity of Christ. This requires personal discipline, We are supposed to be active disciples of Christ, not passive recipients of His grace who demand the freedom from standards of holiness in the way we spend our time, denying ourselves daily, taking up our cross to follow Jesus through the sufferings of death into eternal life.

We are commanded by God in the New Testament to "pray without ceasing" "rejoice in the Lord always" "rejoice evermore" "in everything give thanks" "give thanks for all things", and "abstain from fornication" which is mentioned as the thing most crucial to our sanctification. This includes our imaginations as much as it does physically acting out. It is impossible do these things without living in holiness consecrating ourselves to the Lord as He has consecrated us.
I have a long ways to go myself before I can say I have done as commanded for any length of time. Even today I'm grumbling in unhappiness about some things in my life and I have to work that out with God and bring myself into submission to His will in these things that I simply can't have the way I want them on this side of heaven. However, between the lines of my typing, there is prayer laced throughout as I pray for revival among God's people and for an increase of holiness in our churches so they shine like the face of Moses and lost people are drawn in like moths to the flames with many more falling down before God to repent and believe of the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved from Hell and raised to walk in newness of life before it's forever too late.
Are you denying yourself and picking up your cross daily? In what ways if yes. Or do you leave your cross on the wall while you indulge in worldly pleasures and pursuits, and I don't want to know which ways you might
be doing that if you are doing that because you won't like my preaching against it and I'm trying to be nice.

I'm only trying to make you think about giving account of every moment of your time to God on Judgment Day.

I am assuming that you are a fine, outstanding, Christian who loves the Lord, hates sin, and looks forward to heaven. I will see you there.

As for handling pagan symbols on the dollar bill, Jesus was presented with the same thing when his enemies tried to trap him in His words by asking them if they should pay taxes to Ceasar when everybody knew Ceasar held himself up as god over the Roman Empire.

Jesus asked them whose picture was on the coin, and they answered Ceasar's. Jesus told them to render to Ceasar the things that are Ceasar's and render to God the things that are God's. He told them to obey the laws of their government while they obeyed God.
Jesus did not say "it does not matter, nobody is perfect so don't worry about it"

Avid said:

This is true. The issue is SIN, but we need to be aware of SINS as well. A runner runs, a bricklayer lays bricks, an engineer engineers, and a sinner sins.

I understand and grew up under certain of the teachings that has been posted here, and I have asked for scripture to back them. When I was young, I did not know very much scripture, nor how important it is to get ones doctrine from scripture - not simply whatever Church one attends. This is not intended to dismiss anyone's doctrine, but to have it confirmed.

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I sounded for years exactly like the ones quoting the passages from Romans implying that those are talking about permissiveness. I guess I killed the thread.

rockytopva said:

I heard this sermon in my Baptist church back in the late seventies when I was a youngster. Though this sermon has only a few hits it is still dear to me.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jAyW4BuC2Ew

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Great preaching! I hope others will listen to it, but I doubt they will....they're not listening to me and I'm not half as good as that preacher.

twin1954 said:

We must be careful in applying standards to others. God made all things for us to enjoy. Paul told the Corinthians that all things are yours.

(1Co 3:18) Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.

(1Co 3:19) For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.

(1Co 3:20) And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.

(1Co 3:21) Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are yours;

(1Co 3:22) Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours;

(1Co 3:23) And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.


Now you may say that the context is about not defiling the temple of God which temple you are, verse 17. But the temple spoken of here is not the personal body but the whole of the church in Corinth. Paul is saying that we may enjoy His creation without guilt or remorse. Faith isn't about things it is about resting in Christ and waking by faith not by sight.

Again in chapter 6:12 he says that all things are lawful but not expedient.

(1Co 6:12) All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.


We are free in Christ and have liberty to enjoy our life of faith. A life of faith is a life of joy and peace in believing. It isn't a life of regret, guilt or austere rigidity. The life of faith is a life that seeks to please the Lord but to please the Lord is not to live in a strict and rigid bubble.

I long for that day when this corruption shall put on incorruption and I will be fully consecrated and fully committed to Him. I recognize my weakness and sin and I truly hate it. But I do not allow that knowledge to rob me of my enjoyment of this life or the things in the world which God has given me to enjoy.

The reason monasteries never worked was because you cannot fence the world out you bring it with you wherever you are.

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Did you listen to the sermon by Rev. Tom Allen recommended by rockytopva? Can you?

twin1954 said:

We must be careful in applying standards to others. God made all things for us to enjoy. Paul told the Corinthians that all things are yours.

(1Co 3:18) Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.

(1Co 3:19) For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.

(1Co 3:20) And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.

(1Co 3:21) Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are yours;

(1Co 3:22) Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours;

(1Co 3:23) And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.


Now you may say that the context is about not defiling the temple of God which temple you are, verse 17. But the temple spoken of here is not the personal body but the whole of the church in Corinth. Paul is saying that we may enjoy His creation without guilt or remorse. Faith isn't about things it is about resting in Christ and waking by faith not by sight.

Again in chapter 6:12 he says that all things are lawful but not expedient.

(1Co 6:12) All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.


We are free in Christ and have liberty to enjoy our life of faith. A life of faith is a life of joy and peace in believing. It isn't a life of regret, guilt or austere rigidity. The life of faith is a life that seeks to please the Lord but to please the Lord is not to live in a strict and rigid bubble.

I long for that day when this corruption shall put on incorruption and I will be fully consecrated and fully committed to Him. I recognize my weakness and sin and I truly hate it. But I do not allow that knowledge to rob me of my enjoyment of this life or the things in the world which God has given me to enjoy.

The reason monasteries never worked was because you cannot fence the world out you bring it with you wherever you are.

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The Bible applies standards, I'm only pointing out the illustration contrasting the holiness in Moses from God against the worldliness of the Israelites who turned their backs on Moses and God to indulge in dancing naked with singing and partying. You can't tell me not to say what the Bible says. Holiness is the standard God calls for. Where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.