Hitler

[Healed_IHS]

ok.. thought that might get someones interest.

My question is... if a person claims to have faith in Jesus, then goes on doing things directly in contrast to God's word (Works), do they still inherit the kingdom of heaven?

In the New Testament, it shows how even demons believed in Jesus. So..... is belief really enough? Can one believe, yet sin, and still be saved?

It's not really like God has "felonies" and "misdemeanors". The way that I understand it (this may be far fetched/exaggerated- but bear with me), the person with an impure thought life is just as guilty as a rapist/killer in God's eyes.

The way that I am leaning on this, and I hope I am wrong, is yes. Hitler is in fact in heaven. Contrast the way that he lived his life though with someone that did good works (Ghandi- though he beat his wife and kids) but did not believe in Jesus. Wouldn't the bible state that Hitler is in heaven, while Ghandi is in hell?

P.S interesting side note. On the Franciscan newsletter I subscribe to, it reads that Ghandi stated he would have converted to western christianity if we haven't made such a bungle of it. Don't know if it is true or not, but...

 

[JoeCatch]

You summarize the gist of your inquiry as, "Can one believe, yet sin, and still be saved?" My response is, we'd all certainly better hope so, otherwise there's no hope for any of us! None of us becomes a non-sinner after coming to faith in Christ, so if no longer sinning after coming to faith is a prerequisite for salvation, then the realm of heaven will certainly be a very lonely place.

It seems that the response toward which you're leaning is on the right track. I'm curious though, why do you hope you're wrong? That seems to amount to hoping that God won't keep his promises, or hoping that Christ's sacrifice was insufficient for some. Why? Let God be God!

Insofar as Gandhi is concerned, we confess that Christ's sacrifice and God's promises fulfilled in it are truly universal in scope. So how do we make sense of the apparent paradox of this universality that we find in Christ's life, death and resurrection and the exclusivity of the claims that He and the writers of the scriptures make about him? Well, we're Lutherans, so we don't try to make sense of paradoxes; we understand that God's truth has been revealed to us in tension between opposing poles. Insofar as attempting to rationalize away this tension is concerned, we leave that to the Calvinists and, for our part, once again simply let God be God.

Will Gandhi or Hitler be in heaven? The only sure answer we can give is that we really don't know. We simply trust that God has kept, and will keep, his promises. We know that their salvation is surely not outside of God's capabilities, and we remember that his grace exceeds both his own wrath and our sinfulness.

 

[bwtur88]

There are many in the world, past and present, who believe in Jesus. And you are correct that even demons belive in Jesus. But you have to distinguish between the word "belief" and the word "faith". My faith is in Christ Jesus as the Son of the one, true, living God, and that He is the only way to the Father. Faith in Christ ensures that all sins; past, present, and future, are forgiven. Muslims belive in Christ. Are they saved? No. How do we know? The word of God. Simply because someone states that they belive in Christ does not ensure salvation. And only God knows what is truly in a person's heart. Is there a way that we may know someone is saved? Yes, and again we turn to God's word. When a person is saved and as there faith grows, they will grow in the body of Christ. This growth is demonstrated in different ways: prayer life, knowledge and study of the word of God, spreading the gospel, works, etc. The bible speaks of "fruit" as a demonstration of one's faith in Christ. Fruit is a byproduct of a person's faith in Christ. So you see, faith is the key, not works. Again, Christ is the Son of God. He is the Saviour of the world and no man comes to the Father except through Him. If a person simply believes in Christ as a good guy, did some good things, was simply a good man like all other men, is not the only way to heaven, etc., they are not saved. Again, how do we know? The word of God. When in doubt always return to the source. Hope this helps.

 

[Healed_IHS]

You both raise very good points, and I absolutely agree with you. What was causing some confusion, is that good deeds (works) are not sufficient to appease God for our salvation. Yet, if acts are not needed (and thank God they aren't- literally), if someone truly believes (has faith) in Christ, yet leads followers astray. it doesn't seem congruent with faith in Christ. At the risk of sounding judgemental, Hitler wa a bad guy (...thank you capt. obvious ) and Ghandi (though Christ did not get the credit for his works), did more to forward the Christian cause on this earth. Again, these are extremes, but for example only. Thanks for your responses, though they have given me a lot to think about.
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[Edial]

ok.. thought that might get someones interest.

My question is... if a person claims to have faith in Jesus, then goes on doing things directly in contrast to God's word (Works), do they still inherit the kingdom of heaven?

In the New Testament, it shows how even demons believed in Jesus. So..... is belief really enough? Can one believe, yet sin, and still be saved?

It's not really like God has "felonies" and "misdemeanors". The way that I understand it (this may be far fetched/exaggerated- but bear with me), the person with an impure thought life is just as guilty as a rapist/killer in God's eyes.

The way that I am leaning on this, and I hope I am wrong, is yes. Hitler is in fact in heaven. Contrast the way that he lived his life though with someone that did good works (Ghandi- though he beat his wife and kids) but did not believe in Jesus. Wouldn't the bible state that Hitler is in heaven, while Ghandi is in hell?

P.S interesting side note. On the Franciscan newsletter I subscribe to, it reads that Ghandi stated he would have converted to western christianity if we haven't made such a bungle of it. Don't know if it is true or not, but...

Concerning "Hitler".
A self-proclaimed Christian only goes to heaven when he is able to repent from the heart.
If one sins more and more, his heart hardens.
Now, repentance is knowing that what one does is sin and one wants to turn from it.
Many hardened criminals cannot repent.
For example, let's say a Mafia Boss is on his deathbed.
A priest is present and is asking him if he repents of his sins.
The Boss thinks deep in his heart and believes that some of the guys that he whacked really "deserved it".
He will say that he repents, but his heart is far from it.
He can no longer repent with his heart. He really does not believe that he was wrong in all his killings.

Concerning "Ghandi".
Christ said that salvation is only through Him.
Does that mean that others were "discriminated" against?

The premise for this is that one goes to hell when he willfully and soberly rejects Christ.
JN 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."


If one heard of Christ, yet rejected him for whatever reason, his sinful nature remains as is, sinful.
And Christ said that one cannot go to heaven, as long as the "engine" that produces sins (one's nature) is being somehow "covered up" by the sacrificial blood of Christ. One needs to be born again.

2. If one never heard of Christ, there is always a point of death when one could could see Christ and reject him willfully and soberly and go into the Hades.
You see, Christ hold the keys to death and Hades and no one get "down there" without Christ opening the doors for him.
REV 1:18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

You see, ALL will be given a chance to reject Him.
Once they do not, God will enable them to believe in him.

Now, could one be saved from the Hades while in the Hades?
That is another topic.
(Hades is the Underworld of the Departed Dead. Non-Christians go there after they die. The Great White Throne Judgement is in the future and after that the Burning Lake or the Gehenna).

Thanks,
Ed

 

[CaffineAddict]

James 2:14-19
14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, F13 if you say you have faith but do not have works? Can faith save you? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and lacks daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, "Go in peace; keep warm and eat your fill," and yet you do not supply their bodily needs, what is the good of that? 17 So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. 18 But someone will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. 19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe?and shudder.

Works don't obtain salvation, but works are the natural responce of faith.

Were Hitler's actions evidence his faith? Did Hitler's faith bear fruit through his actions?

And remember, we are not the one appointed to ultimately judge the answers of these questions.

 

[Healed_IHS]

Were Hitler's actions evidence his faith? Did Hitler's faith bear fruit through his actions?

Absolutely not. On the other hand, we do next get saved by works, but by publicly proclaiming faith in jesus

 

[CaffineAddict]

Were Hitler's actions evidence his faith? Did Hitler's faith bear fruit through his actions?

Absolutely not. On the other hand, we do next get saved by works, but by publicly proclaiming faith in jesus

I am not pointing to works righiousness here. There is nothin any one of us can do to earn our salvation.

What I am pointing out, however, is that faith is active, faith is a verb.

"You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe"

Even the demons publicly confess that God is one. Yet the demons are not saved, therefore lack faith. So faith and belief are seperate.

The phrase God is one alludes to the shema in Deut 6:4-9. In the second verse of the shema "you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might." This is where the faithful and the demons are seperate. Even the demons can believe and profess God as one, but it is only the faithful who act upon this knowlage and love God.

 

[Healed_IHS]

Please keep in mind, I do feel the way that you do... faith w/o works is dead indeed.

What I am pointing out, however, is that faith is active, faith is a verb.

Actually, faith is a noun, a state of being, not a state of doing. One cannot "Faith" something. Believe or confess is however. In " believe (confess) Jesus as saviour", the verb is proclaim or confess. Faith is only the soil from which the seed gets nourished to grow. The base is faith, the results are actions. Yet proclaiming itself is an action as it is a verb. So wait, I'm confused... it IS by works that we are saved? After all believe/confess are both actions.

Bad people who proclaim Jesus do go to heaven, which is a relief as we are all no better than baby rapers to God.

 

[Edial]

...

Bad people who proclaim Jesus do go to heaven, which is a relief as we are all no better than baby rapers to God.

This is correct.
However, just confessing the Lord is not enough in order to go to heaven.
Repentance is also necessary.
Look at the verse below.
2TI 2:19 Nevertheless, God's solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: "The Lord knows those who are his,"and, "Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness."

Thanks,
Ed

 

[rockytrails]

God saved the thief on the cross through faith in Jesus.
Could God had saved Adolf Hitler ?sure
We honestly don't know whether Aadolf Hitler was saved or not since none of us were their or could see into his heart before he died.perhaps he repented and believed in Jesus as his only savior from sin to. Would that not be wonderful.
we do know adolf was baptized by the Catholic church. Saddly we
also know
he did not keep himself nourished through Gods word .
and so saving faith at his baptism was more than likly starved to death and died.


now on demon's
we also know the demons Believed Jesus was who he claimed to be .
but they rejected him as savior of the world and

their God to,

Their god is satan.

whether one sin's or not does not save any one
but willful sining can quickly destroy saving faith in Jesus their fore we must see it as the spiritual poision it is.

 

[Healed_IHS]

but willful sining can quickly destroy saving faith in Jesus their fore we must see it as the spiritual poision it is.

I like the way you put that. Sin is a poison. It's a pesticide that would rob us of our fruits.

saving faith at his baptism was more than likly starved to death and died.

I am living proof that faith can be lost (and in my case, thankfully, restored), so if Hitlers faith was lost, that would nullify the salvation, if not he would still retain it? I mean this all theoretically as, obviously, we are unable to know these things absolutely.

 

[rockytrails]

but willful sining can quickly destroy saving faith in Jesus their fore we must see it as the spiritual poision it is.

I like the way you put that. Sin is a poison. It's a pesticide that would rob us of our fruits.

saving faith at his baptism was more than likly starved to death and died.

I am living proof that faith can be lost (and in my case, thankfully, restored), so if Hitlers faith was lost, that would nullify the salvation, if not he would still retain it? I mean this all theoretically as, obviously, we are unable to know these things absolutely.

Salvation won for him by Jesus would always be a fact. but like you say with out faith in Jesus he would never receive it's benefit's that heaven won for him also.
would be lost do to unbelief

 

[Healed_IHS]

Salvation is supposed to be a "Free Gift". If it is a gift, no repayment is made. If there is to be a repayment, it's no longer free nor a gift, but becomes an "account payable" that can never be repayed.

 

[Edial]

Salvation is supposed to be a "Free Gift". If it is a gift, no repayment is made. If there is to be a repayment, it's no longer free nor a gift, but becomes an "account payable" that can never be repayed.

It is a free gift to the ones that are repentant of their sins.
If there is salvation without repentance, the fact that man is a sinner becomes irrelevant.

Thanks,
Ed

 

[rockytrails]

Salvation is supposed to be a "Free Gift". If it is a gift, no repayment is made. If there is to be a repayment, it's no longer free nor a gift, but becomes an "account payable" that can never be repayed.

your right no payment needed that is why
repentance is Gods work in us . not something we must do
that repentance that God works in us has two parts feeling truly sorry for sin which never wants to do them again and trusting in Jesus our sin's are truly forgiven

 

[Healed_IHS]

yet repentance is not necessary for salvation?

16: yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed on Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

 

[Edial]

yet repentance is not necessary for salvation?

16: yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed on Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Believing in Jesus Christ includes repentance, since demons also "believe" in Christ.
Yet demons are not repentant.

Repentance is not works, but a state of contrition.

That is why this verse clarifies it ...
2TI 2:19 Nevertheless, God's solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: "The Lord knows those who are his,"and, "Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness."

"Turning away" means a willingness to admit their their sins are sinful.
"Turning away" also means to change one's mind (or heart) concerning their sins. An inner willingness to stop.

Now, do repentant people sin?
Yes. But they know that what they do is sin.
They sin due to pressure, addictions, and so forth.
But in their minds and hearts they rather not sin.

Thanks,
Ed

 

[Healed_IHS]

Ok... so what you are saying is that Repentance is necessary for salvation?

I readily agree with you, but I also think I am mistaken, as repentance is a verb, so the bible classifies it as an act.

 

[Edial]

Ok... so what you are saying is that Repentance is necessary for salvation?

I readily agree with you, but I also think I am mistaken, as repentance is a verb, so the bible classifies it as an act.

I am saying that repentance is a necessary state of believing.
Repentance is also a "part" of faith.

Now, concerning "repenting" as a verb, or act.

The first words in the gospels that we hear from Christ is "Repent, for the Kingdom of heaven is near".
(There are many instances in NT where people are called to repent).

Once people heard this message many began doing an act of repentance.
HOWEVER, that act in itself is not "valid" for salvation.
It is in a way incomplete. It is just a response to the message.

After that comes the important part.

Once a person responds to the message (or repents), God grants him repentance.
And the repentance from God to a human heart is what counts.
There are only 2 instances in the NT where God grants repentance.

Here ...

AC 11:15 "As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit came on them as he had come on us at the beginning. 16 Then I remembered what the Lord had said: `John baptized with n water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.' 17 So if God gave them the same gift as he gave us, who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could oppose God?"
AC 11:18 When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, "So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life."

... and here,

2TI 2:25 Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, 26 and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.

Now, who does God grant repentance to? Everyone that says "I repent"?
Of course not.

God knows the condition of each person's heart. How he responded to the message. What were his motives for saying "I repent".

God initiates all things and completes them as well.

He also works in peoples' hearts in order to prepare them for that "day" of repentance. And during this time of God's preparation, people either resist that work of God or not.
Only God knows that and a person himself upon whom God works.

God works in peoples' hearts and convicts them of sin. (It could start as early as when one is still in mothers belly).
People either accept that conviction of sin, or reject it deep in their hearts. An on-going process.
God sends the message.
Person responds "I repent" or "I believe".
To the ones that did not resist the conviction of Holy Spirit concerning sin in their lives, God grants His repentance.
The ones that resisted God's conviction of sin in their lives, do not receive that repentance from God.

Thanks,
Ed