Hesychasm

ripple the car · Nov 8, 2020

@bèlla , fwiw, I’d listen carefully and prayerfully to what the EO say on here. It’s their own tradition, their own practice, and they would likely know the joys, dangers, and difficulties of anything related to Orthodoxy. I have seen them warn other folks to take baby steps, not dive into anything, and learn carefully under an EO priest instead of trying things on one’s own. Especially hesychasm.

bèlla · Nov 8, 2020

Pavel Mosko said:
It is available for free on line, click the pdf link. Some folks my former priest when I lived in California was a little uncomfortable with it ;because he thought it was too advanced for many people (because he hadn't even experienced some of the stuff that the book talks about).

Anyway I'm pretty sure their at least one chapter on the Jesus prayer, as well as other kinds of mystical stuff so enjoy.

Thank you!! I'm looking forward to reading it. Have you read it too? If so, what are your thoughts?

Yours in His Service,

~bella

bèlla · Nov 8, 2020

WanderedHome said:
The words are vitally important and each time we say them we should focus our heart on the words with all sincerity of faith and repentance. You may have to say it very slowly, or you might have to go faster- it's different for each person. It is not about quantity, but quality. Everything should lead to contrition and repentance, not a self-inflation.

WanderedHome,

Thank you for explaining and including the important distinction between the prayer and mantras. I hope the thread provides insight for those who aren't conversant with Orthodoxy. I'm not an expert!

I'm very cautious about implementing spiritual practices. I learn a lot. But I don't do it. For obvious reasons! That's saved my neck a time or ten. There's little need to rush forward unawares when there's a community of knowledgeable people here I can query. That's what I've done.

I can remember a few experiences where after a few minutes of praying, my room was just filled with a presence of peace, like it was dripping from the walls and I'm like "Lord, it is good for me to be here. Let me build you a tent ".... LOL! ... but in all seriousness, that's really what it is about- resting in the presence of the Uncreated Light (Jesus Christ) and being changed by that experience... Just to be clear, I never actually saw any light, maybe there are some monks who have, but we'll never know since they are too humble to talk about it.

I used to have lengthy periods of intentional silence and prayer. I sense the Lord is calling me back to them and something more. This is another example of His desire for me to experience His presence in a deeper fashion. I've had a few prods.

If you are interested, I would recommend visiting an Orthodox church or a monastery church and just getting to know the faith in general. Don't be too eager to learn the Jesus Prayer, but just be open to where God leads.

I believe the purpose of this exercise was to ask the question. In asking, I'd understand where He's leading me. This has been very informative. Thank you for sharing your experiences.

Yours in His Service,

~bella

bèlla · Nov 8, 2020

Gracia Singh said:
@bèlla , fwiw, I’d listen carefully and prayerfully to what the EO say on here. It’s their own tradition, their own practice, and they would likely know the joys, dangers, and difficulties of anything related to Orthodoxy. I have seen them warn other folks to take baby steps, not dive into anything, and learn carefully under an EO priest instead of trying things on one’s own. Especially hesychasm.

Gracia,

Thank you for chiming in. I appreciate your kind words. As I mentioned earlier, my experiences have made me cautious and I don't rush into spiritual waters without much prayer and confirmation from the Lord. I don't believe He's telling me to do it. But to understand why the practice is valuable and its spiritual benefits.

I hope you're well and in good health.

Yours in His Service,

~bella

SalemOrthodox · Nov 8, 2020

One should probably read Unseen warfare and see the five levels of prayer before thinking they have the lack of passions, the strength of character where even Saints and monks surrounded by Elders are deceived to 'attempt' this. Are you confident you have no delusions, pride, or judgements against others?

The Saints were even worried of progressing "beyond their level", much less ourselves with no spiritual father as a guide! Many of Mount Athos say their are no hesychasists of old today, it is not possible - we do not have the discernment to try and attain this and are polluted by all the 'noise' around us - music, TV, internet, individualism and pride, self importance, etc. Why would we 'try' to attain this except for our own pride?

Priestmonk Kosmas "anyone who says ‘I’m going to now do the Jesus prayer' without a guide, they are deceived." This is different from using the Jesus prayer in times of struggle, or throughout the day instead of saying 'I WILL do 100 Jesus Prayer repetitions every two hours' without consulting a Father.

Contrast with those in the thread who think this is dharmic in nature and can just replace 'buddha' with 'Jesus' oh the false Light of the Enemy will love that! Please defer to the monks of Mt Athos (bottom of post).

You can listen to a small heated discussion between Priestmonk Kosmas and another Father here on this subject.

Please listen to St Paisos and not be deluded by self attainment Eastern mystic philosophy where 'no evil' exists, and all suffering is excused by reincarnation. This bleeds into your other practices if you are not careful.
The Jesus Prayer and the Hindu Mantra by Dionysios Farasiotis
When yogis claim that the Jesus Prayer resembles their own mantras, they are in fact trying to fit the Jesus Prayer into their own Procrustean bed. Of course, there are similarities, but there are also enormous differences-both a table and a horse have four legs, but to conclude that they are consequently the same would be an error of the crudest sort. But this is just the kind of error the yogis make when they claim that the Jesus Prayer is a kind of mantra. A brief examination of the essential differences between the Jesus Prayer and a mantra should provide those with an open mind the wherewithal to draw the proper conclusions.

bèlla · Nov 8, 2020

Francis Earl said:
Of course, psyche is the word actually used in the NT... incase anyone is confused why I'm bringing it up...

It suggests, however, that like psychology, the actual goal is true sanity... where relying on the mind rather than reality is insanity.

It suggests psychoanalysis is a type of catharsis, intended to purify our mental traumas and the like...

This is all a function of a genuine spiritual path... further, this spirit or pneuma is the other side of breath... what is breathed in, where the soul breaths out... the relationship is one.

All quite interesting but perhaps confusing to most, sorry.

Can you unpack this a little further? I think it will go over many people's heads.

Yours in His Service,

~bella

bèlla · Nov 8, 2020

SalemsConcordance said:
One should probably read Unseen warfare and see the five levels of prayer before thinking they have the lack of passions, the strength of character where even Saints and monks surrounded by Elders are deceived to 'attempt' this. Are you confident you have no delusions, pride, or judgements against others?

Salem,

My OP makes no suggestion of performance. I'm certain the members of the community can attest that I have no experience with Orthodoxy or laid claim to practices in the past. I presented the question to obtain feedback.

Contrast with those in the thread who think this is dharmic in nature and can just replace 'buddha' with 'Jesus' oh the false Light of the Enemy will love that! Please defer to the monks of Mt Athos (bottom of post).

I don't believe they're one in the same. I was candid about my previous experiences for that reason. I know it isn't the truth.

Please listen to St Paisos and not be deluded by self attainment Eastern mystic philosophy where 'no evil' exists, and all suffering is excused by reincarnation. This bleeds into your other practices if you are not careful.

Thank you for sharing the video. I don't follow Eastern traditions or practices. I did when I didn't know any better. But the Lord showed me the truth years ago. I appreciate the warning and hope it clarifies the difference for others reading the thread.

Yours in His Service,

~bella

Francis Earl · Nov 8, 2020

bèlla said:
Can you unpack this a little further? I think it will go over many people's heads.

Yours in His Service,

~bella

It would be easier if you ask questions... then I can explain particular points.

Unfortunately, there comes a point in familiarity with any topic where it becomes difficult to understand how others might be confused.

Francis Earl · Nov 8, 2020

I would say Buddha specializes in via negativa, where Christianity trends towards greater and greater fullness... but I can tell you they actually arrive at the same place...

One removes everything but God, the other makes everything God...

What remains is God either way.

Albeit, by different names and labels.

The Buddhist tends to reject a creator, we are each creating every moment in every interaction...

Yet, the advaya or non-duality of the Buddhist is the same as the oneness of God.

Best presented, perhaps, in Galatians 3:28 where apparent opposites are brought together...

Lukaris · Nov 8, 2020

In another thread an inquirer is looking for books by Orthodox Church fathers. I recommend a collection of homilies by St. Gregory (Palamas). The homilies themselves are not on Hesychasm per se but St. Gregory may be the primary church father of hesychasm. Perhaps seeing the fruits of the Spirit in such a person is a safe & subtle insight into this study.

Anyway, here is the book of homilies ( about 100pp.) by St. Gregory:
st gregory palamas the saving work of christ - Google Search

Pavel Mosko · Nov 8, 2020

bèlla said:
Thank you!! I'm looking forward to reading it. Have you read it too? If so, what are your thoughts?

Yours in His Service,

~bella

Yes I have a copy that I bought on Amazon. It's been a while since I've read it. I seem to find some areas of it inspiring, I don't remember what any particular thing I can quote. I think I especially liked that the monk was reading other folks outside of the immediate tradition like saint Isaac the Syrian etc. because I tend to be very eclectic myself.

I will probably read it again with the link since my copy is boxed up. (I never completely unpacked from my move because I got some reservations on how long I'm going to be staying etc.).

And of course there is other stuff too like a certain saying from this one Coptic priest, and various Christian authors that "people often spend more time reading books on prayer than actually praying."

Which definitely can be me at times, and I think a lot of folks.

So I try at different times getting back into different things like

1) Praying the Agpeya (book of Hours) Agpeya: Coptic Book of Hours (www.agpeya.org)

2) Praying the Psalms with Bible gateway using the audio function
BibleGateway.com: A searchable online Bible in over 150 versions and 50 languages.: Audio

3) Or for that more charismatic/mystical end of things praying with the Soorp Badarak (Armenian Divine Liturgy). But it helps know a little Armenian and I'm slowly forgetting what terms I did memorize, I need to find a good Armenian web site for that. But the Soorp Badarak is definitely one of my goto mood music for worship etc.

But Yeah there is good stuff from the Agpeya. I need to get back to memorizing and chanting the Prayer of thanksgiving. Which can be heard or read below...

http://www.agpeya.org/thanksgivingprayer.mp3

THE PRAYER OF THANKSGIVING [top]

Let us give thanks to the beneficent and merciful God, the Father of our Lord, God and Savior, Jesus Christ, for He has covered us, helped us, guarded us, accepted us unto Him, spared us, supported us, and brought us to this hour. Let us also ask Him, the Lord our God, the Almighty, to guard us in all peace this holy day and all the days of our life.

O Master, Lord, God the Almighty, the Father of our Lord, God and Savior, Jesus Christ, we thank You for every condition, concerning every condition, and in every condition, for You have covered us, helped us, guarded us, accepted us unto You, spared us, supported us, and brought us to this hour.

Therefore, we ask and entreat Your goodness, O Lover of mankind, to grant us to complete this holy day, and all the days of our life, in all peace with Your fear. All envy, all temptation, all the work of Satan, the counsel of wicked men, and the rising up of enemies, hidden and manifest, take them away from us, and from all Your people, and from this holy place that is Yours.

But those things which are good and profitable do provide for us; for it is You Who have given us the authority to tread on serpents and scorpions, and upon all the power of the enemy.

And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil, by the grace, compassion and love of mankind, of Your Only-Begotten Son, our Lord, God and Savior, Jesus Christ, through Whom the glory, the honor, the dominion, and the adoration are due unto You, with Him, and the Holy Spirit, the Life-Giver, Who is of one essence with You, now and at all times, and unto the ages of all ages. Amen.

Francis Earl · Nov 8, 2020

Advaya and advaita have similar meanings... but aren't the same, yet are...

Advaya correctly means non-duality, advaita means not two, because it says atman and brahman are the same...

The difference is subtle... but also the cause of their disagreement...

Advaya says when atman and brahman are merged there is nirvana... advaita says atman and brahman are the same and this is samadhi...

Don't spot the difference? Me either, but apparently it's a big deal.

Christianity says the same when it says we should take on the Spirit... as a particular soul.

It is more clear to me...

Francis Earl · Nov 8, 2020

I guess it makes me a bad Christian for not hating other expressions of the same reality though?

Honestly, I can't tell the difference, but Christianity isn't cultural appropriation.

Hesychasm is what makes them the same.

In the experience there is genuinely no difference.

Just different descriptions, interpretations of it.

Francis Earl · Nov 8, 2020

I would like to include Sufism in this... they are via negativa too because they get rid of the ego like Jesus in John 14:10...

The Bhakti movement is same... still this surrender of what isn't divine in us...

Truly, there really is only one religion.

Apparently this view brings about the end times though?

I'm a little confused about that.

This comes from devoting my life to studying all this though... and experiencing what is conveyed...

It is truly only ego and ignorance that makes them distinct.

Francis Earl · Nov 8, 2020

Sikhism is the same, but they have funny outfits.

I really dislike this conscious attempt to be different.

Francis Earl · Nov 8, 2020

I am saying all this because it's the fruits of hesychasm though...

Through experiencing the reality you really can't tell the difference, you can only see where men have erred... and every tradition has its errors.

It is another reason I like Eastern Orthodoxy, it admits that all these writers are fallible... they are still speaking from the influences of their society despite knowing God and being inspired by that experience...

It is better to have that experience yourself than rely on the words of others about it.

Note that Jesus didn't write anything, so I am not speaking against him.

Francis Earl · Nov 8, 2020

I am as fallible, and thus understand why they are...

I have my own influences AND the experience through which they're interpreted...

All saints of every tradition are like this... their own past doesn't vanish.

Don't trust me either, know for yourself.

That is the right title for me though, because in Eastern Orthodoxy this experience does make you a saint, it is the definition...

Yet it is better you be one too than glorify any other.

That is the role of hesychasm.

Francis Earl · Nov 8, 2020

Many are saying they aren't called for this... that for "regular people" this isn't necessary...

I say if you don't want truth return to your normal life, religion isn't for you.

Yet this isn't incompatible with "normal life", it is the purpose.

Maybe you can't be as dedicated because of other responsibilities, but hesychasm certainly doesn't get in the way of repetitive tasks...

You can let the body do the task while still concentrating on the Lord within...

Indeed, this is the situation with everything I type... hesychasm never ceases here...

Francis Earl · Nov 8, 2020

It hasn't for at least 5 years now.

Justin-H.S. · Nov 8, 2020

bèlla said:
I came across Hesychasm on a website I used to frequent. Can you expound on the concept and your personal experiences if applicable? Thank you.

Yours in His Service,

~bella

Set a guard over my mouth, O Lord, keep watch over the door of my lips! Psalms 141:3

Keep quiet or try.

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