Here's a likeable thread: name one thing - about a denomination other than your own - that you like

The Liturgist · Dec 26, 2021

By the way, did I mention I love the Reformed Church of Hungary? They are Congregationalist, and in the US are associated with the UCC, which I used to be with, so its kind of cheating, but I am just listening to their hymns on Apple Music and I love it. I will uncheat however by listening to the hymns of the Church of Iceland, which are really beautiful.

MarkRohfrietsch · Dec 26, 2021

First, Mormans and JWs are no more Christian than Muslims, since all three deny the divinity and dual nature of Christ as revealed in the Scriptures, and as confessed in the three Ecumenical Creeds; one of which is the Nicene Creed that just happens to be the Statement of Faith here at Christian forums.

What I do admire are the groups who work hard to preserve the traditional liturgies and worship forms regardless of their denomination. As a Lutheran, I appreciate the liturgical and musical traditions of the Anglican Church; particularly the Oxford Movement and Anglo-Catholics. Likewise when I hear old traditional "Catholic" hymns and canticles (many in our hymnal), and when I hear Bach played and Sung in Catholic Churches, I know that despite our differences, we are all brothers and sisters in Christ. I also see great beauty in the Extraordinary form of the Mass, and regret the Pope's recent suppression of it.

The Liturgist · Dec 26, 2021

MarkRohfrietsch said:
First, Mormans and JWs are no more Christian than Muslims, since all three deny the divinity and dual nature of Christ as revealed in the Scriptures, and as confessed in the three Ecumenical Creeds; one of which is the Nicene Creed that just happens to be the Statement of Faith here at Christian forums.

What I do admire are the groups who work hard to preserve the traditional liturgies and worship forms regardless of their denomination. As a Lutheran, I appreciate the liturgical and musical traditions of the Anglican Church; particularly the Oxford Movement and Anglo-Catholics. Likewise when I hear old traditional "Catholic" hymns and canticles (many in our hymnal), and when I hear Bach played and Sung in Catholic Churches, I know that despite our differences, we are all brothers and sisters in Christ. I also see great beauty in the Extraordinary form of the Mass, and regret the Pope's recent suppression of it.

Lately I have been agreeing with so much of what you write it is freaking me out. Quick, lets have a flamewar about Martin Luther’s more controversial acts to make sure we are not trapped in the Matrix (the new Matrix film was weird, not as good as the original obviously, but much better than the third movke, with its interminable headache-yielding CGI battles

The Liturgist · Dec 26, 2021

Paidiske said:
No, I have not. But remember that 1959 was more than twenty years before I was born...

And 15 before I was born (I date from the Gerald Ford Administration)! But it is good, and its streaming for free on YouTube in the US. My favorite film is either 2001: A Space Odyssey or Lawrence of Arabia or the lesser known Charleton Heston epics The Naked Jungle and Khartoum, where he plays Governor General of the Sudan Charles “Chinese” Gordon, also known as Gordon Pasha, opposite Sir Lawrence Olivier, my favorite English actor, as Muhammad Ahmed al Mahdi, who I regard with some disdain.

If we keep chatting I am going to run out of churches with which I am unafiliated that I like, but how about the Lutheran Church of the Faroe Islands. That is the most tranquil parish I have ever seen:

MarkRohfrietsch · Dec 26, 2021

The Liturgist said:
Lately I have been agreeing with so much of what you write it is freaking me out. Quick, lets have a flamewar about Martin Luther’s more controversial acts to make sure we are not trapped in the Matrix (the new Matrix film was weird, not as good as the original obviously, but much better than the third movke, with its interminable headache-yielding CGI battles

LOL; Regarding Controversial Acts... Drink traditional unfiltered Ale; and address "controversies" clearly with "unfiltered verbiage". LOL

Paidiske · Dec 26, 2021

The Liturgist said:
If you were offered a massive salary to come to the US, join the Episcopal Church and take over a parish, I would encourage you to do that one, because San Francisco is a delight if you are well paid, and you clearly have the Anglican instincts that could enable it to retain its diversity but without offending traditional Episcopalians.

I must admit that the US must be one of the regions lowest on my list of places I wish to work. I do, from time to time, cast an eye abroad, but my instinct is to offer to serve in places where Christianity is a minority religion and the church relies on a supply of clergy from elsewhere. Most recently I applied for a position in Dubai, but the last thing I heard from them was as the borders were closing due to Covid... I guess the Holy Spirit had other ideas!

The Liturgist · Dec 26, 2021

Paidiske said:
I must admit that the US must be one of the regions lowest on my list of places I wish to work. I do, from time to time, cast an eye abroad, but my instinct is to offer to serve in places where Christianity is a minority religion and the church relies on a supply of clergy from elsewhere. Most recently I applied for a position in Dubai, but the last thing I heard from them was as the borders were closing due to Covid... I guess the Holy Spirit had other ideas!

Well, that is commemdable! I was joking, but you aren’t! So, if you are serious, I would also look into Qatar, Oman and Bahrain, and elsewhere in the UAE; I would avoid Kuwait as it is on the hot side. As in, the desert here is so hot there is some debate among meteorologists over whether or not Death Valley, California, where in summer 2020 it was 137”, is still the hottest place on Earth. I would worry about safety working anywhere else in the Gulf other than those states and even Qatar makes me nervous, frankly.

Paidiske · Dec 26, 2021

The Liturgist said:
Well, that is commemdable! I was joking, but you aren’t! So, if you are serious, I would also look into Qatar, Oman and Bahrain, and elsewhere in the UAE; I would avoid Kuwait as it is on the hot side. As in, the desert here is so hot there is some debate among meteorologists over whether or not Death Valley, California, where in summer 2020 it was 137”, is still the hottest place on Earth. I would worry about safety working anywhere else in the Gulf other than those states and even Qatar makes me nervous, frankly.

I am quite serious. The Anglican diocese there is the diocese of Cyprus and the Gulf, and I've applied for positions there twice. The first time I knew I wasn't really experienced enough to take on a job where I'd be the only priest in the country, but I wanted to be on their radar; the second time, as I say, I thought I had a good chance and they were keen to interview me, but Covid... sigh. Maybe when I finish here, depending on family situation etc etc., will be the right time.

The added complication is which places will or won't appoint a woman. Cyprus and the Gulf generally will, but neighbouring dioceses (Jerusalem and Alexandria, which includes Egypt and the Horn of Africa) won't, or at least didn't last time I checked.

BobRyan · Dec 26, 2021

The Liturgist said:
In what Bible version? Because I counted five across multiple versions.

The Hail Mary is like the Jesus Prayer in that it is constructed from segments taken from two verses, Luke 1:28 and Luke 1:42.

"Hail mary full of grace" is not in either of them.

But in John 1:14 we have this
14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us; and we saw His glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

And in Acts 6 we have this
8 And Stephen, full of grace and power, was performing great wonders and signs among the people.

The Liturgist said:
I like the Book of Kells but the Rabbula Gospel makes me super happy.

nice.

BobRyan · Dec 27, 2021

Paidiske said:
I can find three in the NRSV, none of them Marian. (Additions to Esther 15:14, John 1:14 and Acts 6:8).

I looked in NASB/NIV/KJV/NKJV/YLT

There is no Esther 15 in the Bibles I checked. In any case as you point out Esther is not a reference to Mary.

The Liturgist · Dec 27, 2021

Paidiske said:
I am quite serious. The Anglican diocese there is the diocese of Cyprus and the Gulf, and I've applied for positions there twice. The first time I knew I wasn't really experienced enough to take on a job where I'd be the only priest in the country, but I wanted to be on their radar; the second time, as I say, I thought I had a good chance and they were keen to interview me, but Covid... sigh. Maybe when I finish here, depending on family situation etc etc., will be the right time.

The added complication is which places will or won't appoint a woman. Cyprus and the Gulf generally will, but neighbouring dioceses (Jerusalem and Alexandria, which includes Egypt and the Horn of Africa) won't, or at least didn't last time I checked.

Indeed, your seriousness was evident, and I admire it.

So here is a question: what is your comfort level with working in more dangerous locales? Because I can think of about 20 Anglican dioceses where your help could work, as well as some catacomb churches.

The Liturgist · Dec 27, 2021

BobRyan said:
"Hail mary full of grace" is not in either of them.

But in John 1:14 we have this
14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us; and we saw His glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

And in Acts 6 we have this
8 And Stephen, full of grace and power, was performing great wonders and signs among the people.

nice.

But you're looking in the wrong translations. The Coverdale, Tyndale, Challoner Doaui Rheims, and any translation of the Peshitta, will have that phrase. And I recall you praising St. Jerome for his preference for Hebrew and Aramaic texts, and the Coverdale would be the best of all worlds: a Protestant translation of Jerome lacking apocrypha. Also the Lamsa Peshitta and Plain English Peshitta lack apocrypha, and the Murdock and Etheridge are New Testament only.

MarkRohfrietsch · Dec 27, 2021

BobRyan said:
"Hail mary full of grace" is not in either of them.

But in John 1:14 we have this
14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us; and we saw His glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

And in Acts 6 we have this
8 And Stephen, full of grace and power, was performing great wonders and signs among the people.

nice.

Luke 1:28, 42 KJV pretty much says exactly that:

28 And the angel came in unto her (Mary), and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women

42 And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.

And there we have it, the Pre-Trent Hail Mary.

BNR32FAN · Dec 27, 2021

Basil the Great said:
I like St. Basil's Third Kneeling Prayer, where the Eastern Orthodox remember the souls that are in Hades/bound for Hell and ask that some relief be afforded to them.

p.s. - We could use more threads like this, especially one for the political forums.

Im not very confident that there would be any posts on this topic in the political forums. (Crickets chirping)

Paidiske · Dec 27, 2021

The Liturgist said:
So here is a question: what is your comfort level with working in more dangerous locales? Because I can think of about 20 Anglican dioceses where your help could work, as well as some catacomb churches.

I'd have to look at it on a case-by-case basis. And negotiate with my family as well. The hardest thing my husband saw about moving to an Islamic country was giving up bacon... (I jest, but only slightly). For now, just over a year into this appointment, I'm not really looking. I have work to do here. But the time will come when I'll seriously consider it again.

BobRyan · Dec 27, 2021

MarkRohfrietsch said:
Luke 1:28, 42 KJV pretty much says exactly that:

28 And the angel came in unto her (Mary), and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women

42 And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.

I agree that it says exactly what you quoted.

But I am looking for the text that says "Hail Mary full of grace".

BobRyan · Dec 27, 2021

The Liturgist said:
But you're looking in the wrong translations.

Fine I am happy to say that I am reading KJV/NKJV/NASB/NIV/YLT and some other folks would not view those Bibles as accurate. Everyone has free will they can have that view.

The Liturgist · Dec 27, 2021

BobRyan said:
Fine I am happy to say that I am reading KJV/NKJV/NASB/NIV/YLT and some other folks would not view those Bibles as accurate. Everyone has free will they can have that view.

I dont know of anyone who questions the accuracy of the Vulgate or Peshitta translations. You even praised the Vulgate at one point I think. And it says “Ave, Gratia Plena,” which is a perfectly valid way of expressing “Thou art highly favored” which is how other translations have it.

The Douai Rheims, Tyndale, Coverdale, Lamsa and other Peshitta translations are also way more reliable than the third edition NIV, which substitutes male pronouns for gender neutral pronouns and has other liberal biases. The second generation NIV also had issues, but the third generation is a problem.

And if Mark is right that the current Ave Maria is of Tridentine origin, but there is a possibility you aren’t, because the Eastern Orthodox versions, including the Old Believer version which predates Trent by many years, and has the intercessory prayer, as does the Syriac version.

However, I think you are probably right, right in that the intercessory prayer was added to the Roman Catholic version at Trent, and given your high level of accuracy on historical facts, I think the idea that at Trent, the Counter Reformers chose to add the intercession, for they were aware that the Syriac Orthodox and the Russian Orthodox had an intercessory prayer, due to Jesuit surveillance, and also the large Orthodox population in Venice, and the fact that the old pre Vatican II Maronite liturgy was almost identical to the Syriac Orthodox liturgy, and its possible the Syriac version of the Hail Mary fot in either directly through the Maronites, or was discovered via the massive amount of Syriac scholarship done by the Assemani family over the centuries. Just as the name Sebastian Brock is synonymous with Syriac studies today, Assemani was synonymous with Syriac studies in prior centuries. As for the EO version of the Hail Mary, that almost certainly got in as a result of the Union of Brest, which led to the Orthodox of the Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth, including Belarus and Western Ukraine, and all of the Carpatho-Rusyn or Ruthenian Orthodox, becoming Byzantine Catholics.

BobRyan said:
I agree that it says exactly what you quoted.

But I am looking for the text that says "Hail Mary full of grace".

And I told you where to find it.

MarkRohfrietsch · Dec 28, 2021

The Liturgist said:
I dont know of anyone who questions the accuracy of the Vulgate or Peshitta translations. You even praised the Vulgate at one point I think. And it says “Ave, Gratia Plena,” which is a perfectly valid way of expressing “Thou art highly favored” which is how other translations have it.

The Douai Rheims, Tyndale, Coverdale, Lamsa and other Peshitta translations are also way more reliable than the third edition NIV, which substitutes male pronouns for gender neutral pronouns and has other liberal biases. The second generation NIV also had issues, but the third generation is a problem.

And if Mark is right that the current Ave Maria is of Tridentine origin, but there is a possibility you aren’t, because the Eastern Orthodox versions, including the Old Believer version which predates Trent by many years, and has the intercessory prayer, as does the Syriac version.

However, I think you are probably right, right in that the intercessory prayer was added to the Roman Catholic version at Trent, and given your high level of accuracy on historical facts, I think the idea that at Trent, the Counter Reformers chose to add the intercession, for they were aware that the Syriac Orthodox and the Russian Orthodox had an intercessory prayer, due to Jesuit surveillance, and also the large Orthodox population in Venice, and the fact that the old pre Vatican II Maronite liturgy was almost identical to the Syriac Orthodox liturgy, and its possible the Syriac version of the Hail Mary fot in either directly through the Maronites, or was discovered via the massive amount of Syriac scholarship done by the Assemani family over the centuries. Just as the name Sebastian Brock is synonymous with Syriac studies today, Assemani was synonymous with Syriac studies in prior centuries. As for the EO version of the Hail Mary, that almost certainly got in as a result of the Union of Brest, which led to the Orthodox of the Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth, including Belarus and Western Ukraine, and all of the Carpatho-Rusyn or Ruthenian Orthodox, becoming Byzantine Catholics.

And I told you where to find it.

It is fair to say that the Intercessory prayer was in use, but not universally. Very similar situation with the Creeds in most Lutheran Hymnals that use word "Christian" vs. "Catholic". The word Christian came into use with the translation from German to English, while the Athanasian Creed, translated directly from the Latin has always used the word Catholic, as it was translated directly from the original Latin.

Most favored, highly favored, + blessed; if we can not interpret that as being filled with grace, then we need not expect ever to receive God's grace. Ever.

Do the versifications used in the ordinaries of Luther's Deutsche Masse invalidate it because they are neither in their original language, or a "perfect" translation?

Childish nit-picking over semantics IMO.

BobRyan · Dec 28, 2021

The Liturgist said:
I dont know of anyone who questions the accuracy of the Vulgate or Peshitta translations

Erasmus for one.

You prefer Greek-to-Latin-to-English or Greek-to-Aramaic-to-English over Greek-to-English??

In any case I am not complaining about the phrase "favored one".

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