Here is what Billy Graham thinks . . .

Vance · Apr 7, 2005

"I don't think that there's any conflict at all between science today and
the Scriptures. I think that we have misinterpreted the Scriptures many
times and we've tried to make the Scriptures say things they weren't meant
to say, I think that we have made a mistake by thinking the Bible is a
scientific book. The Bible is not a book of science. The Bible is a book
of Redemption, and of course I accept the Creation story. I believe that
God did create the universe. I believe that God created man, and whether
it came by an evolutionary process and at a certain point He took this
person or being and made him a living soul or not, does not change the fact
that God did create man. ..... whichever way God did it makes no
difference as to what man is and man's relationship to God."

(Quoted in David Frost, 1997, Billy Graham: Personal Thoughts of a Public Man, p. 72-74.)

SBG · Apr 7, 2005

I can tell you for certain Billy Graham doesn't subscribe to evolution. Billy Graham has spent his time rather on Jesus Christ.

Rebirth In Flames · Apr 7, 2005

I agree with Dr. Graham.

PaladinValer · Apr 7, 2005

For once, I'm actually in agreement with Billy Graham.

Vance · Apr 7, 2005

Well, he may not think evolution is the most likely scenario, but he doesn't really seem to have a problem with it either. What do you have to say about his thoughts on Christians having misread Scripture, and it not being meant to be read as a science book, but a book about redemption?

bdfoster · Apr 7, 2005

This is from a web site that slams Billy as a liberal. In a magazine article from 1966 he was quoted as saying

How you believe doesn't affect the doctrine. Either at a certain moment in evolution God breathed into one particular ape-man who was Adam, or God could have taken a handful of dust and blowed and created a man just like that.

I have a feeling this may be slightly out of context with respect to the original article, but still, consistant with the David Frost quote.

seebs · Apr 7, 2005

Yup. It's totally irrelevant!

mhess13 · Apr 8, 2005

Billy Graham believes the gap theory. He definitely is not an evolutionist and even if he were, Billy Graham is not the authority or final word; the Bible is! The Bible clearly teaches a young earth, so therefore Billy Graham is wrong.

Vance · Apr 8, 2005

SBG, do YOU (or anyone else for that matter) think Graham is "wrong", as mhess puts it, in what he says in the OP? Or would you say you agree with what he says there?

In particular, he makes a few really good points:

1, "we have misinterpreted the Scriptures many times and we've tried to make the Scriptures say things they weren't meant to say"

Who do you think the "we" is there, and do you agree with him?

2. "we have made a mistake by thinking the Bible is a scientific book"

Again, do you agree that the "we" he is referring to has made this mistake?

3. "whichever way God did it ("whether it came by an evolutionary process and at a certain point He took this person or being and made him a living soul or not") makes no difference as to what man is and man's relationship to God"

Do you agree with Graham that it really makes no difference whether God used evolution or not?

Sinai · Apr 8, 2005

mhess13 said:
The Bible clearly teaches a young earth, so therefore Billy Graham is wrong.

Really?
And precisely where does the Bible clearly teach a young earth?
Thank you.

Sinai · Apr 8, 2005

Vance said:
"I don't think that there's any conflict at all between science today and
the Scriptures. I think that we have misinterpreted the Scriptures many
times and we've tried to make the Scriptures say things they weren't meant
to say, I think that we have made a mistake by thinking the Bible is a
scientific book. The Bible is not a book of science. The Bible is a book
of Redemption, and of course I accept the Creation story. I believe that
God did create the universe. I believe that God created man, and whether
it came by an evolutionary process and at a certain point He took this
person or being and made him a living soul or not, does not change the fact
that God did create man. ..... whichever way God did it makes no
difference as to what man is and man's relationship to God."

(Quoted in David Frost, 1997, Billy Graham: Personal Thoughts of a Public Man, p. 72-74.)

The Billy Graham quotation reminds me of a somewhat similar statement written by Dr. Herschel H. Hobbs, who is probably one of the most respected theologians and Bible scholars of the past century:

The fact is that the Bible does not say dogmatically how long the creative period lasted. The Hebrew word for day (yom), like the English word, may mean any number of things: twenty-four hours, a generation, an era, or an indefinite period of time. Since the Holy Spirit inspired the writing of Genesis 1, it must be concluded that he did not spell out this detail. Had he said a twenty-four hour day or indefinite period of time that would settle it. But since he did not do so, the time element is not a vital point in faith.

SBG · Apr 8, 2005

Vance said:
SBG, do YOU (or anyone else for that matter) think Graham is "wrong", as mhess puts it, in what he says in the OP? Or would you say you agree with what he says there?

Looking to me to support you and your views of theology and go against mhess? Please tell me you are not that naive.

If mhess said something I disagreed with, I would have no problem speaking my mind about what he said. I have done so in the past, and I would do so again.

Tell me, how well do you know Dr. Graham? I am very well acquainted with him for he has been a family friend for quite a while.

By what Billy says there he is mostly trying to convey doesn't sit on the subject, but rather be on the subject of Jesus Christ. You seem to totally miss his message - since you are the one who wanted to bring this up - because Billy is not fond of how people spend their time on this subject rather than on Jesus Christ. So this is also speaking against you Vance, but with the blinders that you wear, you won't see this.

Vance said:
In particular, he makes a few really good points:

1, "we have misinterpreted the Scriptures many times and we've tried to make the Scriptures say things they weren't meant to say"

Who do you think the "we" is there, and do you agree with him?

2. "we have made a mistake by thinking the Bible is a scientific book"

Again, do you agree that the "we" he is referring to has made this mistake?

3. "whichever way God did it ("whether it came by an evolutionary process and at a certain point He took this person or being and made him a living soul or not") makes no difference as to what man is and man's relationship to God"

Do you agree with Graham that it really makes no difference whether God used evolution or not?

There are numerous things that Billy and I disagree on that are theological. I am rather insulted and perturbed that you would ask me personally to come and try and bash him.

Do you want to know what that 'we' refers to? It refers to everyone of us and you are NOT the exception.

As I said, Billy and I disagree on numerous theological points, but this forum is not about trying to bash a man for his life spent bringing the Gospel to so many people. I kindly ask you to drop this. You had your say, now move on.

herev · Apr 8, 2005

mhess13 said:
Billy Graham believes the gap theory. He definitely is not an evolutionist and even if he were, Billy Graham is not the authority or final word; the Bible is! The Bible clearly teaches a young earth, so therefore Billy Graham is wrong.

there are times I really wish I had such a defiant and sanctimonious view of my own knowledge and my own correctness in my interpretation--I guess it would be much easier to simply say that I am right and everyone else who disagrees is simply wrong (which is the nicest thing you would say about TE's, I guess).

I can say that having met the man, having studied his doctrines and his interpretations, having listened to him preach on countless occassions, and having studied at his Evangelism School that I do not agree with everything he believes or teaches, but I have never felt condemnation from him for disagreeing. That being said, to be counted in his ranks as in the "wrong" crowd, I find that rather flattering...

herev · Apr 8, 2005

SBG said:
By what Billy says there he is mostly trying to convey doesn't sit on the subject, but rather be on the subject of Jesus Christ. You seem to totally miss his message - since you are the one who wanted to bring this up - because Billy is not fond of how people spend their time on this subject rather than on Jesus Christ. So this is also speaking against you Vance, but with the blinders that you wear, you won't see this.

I think you miss the point SBG, I think Vance knows exactly what Graham is saying and I've heard VAnce say the same thing again and again. It's not that we think Graham supports evolution, but that he, like us, thinks that the creation accounts are not to be stood on as the end all determining factor on whether or not someone's doctrine of Jesus Christ is "acceptable," which many around here have said about us TE's.

SBG · Apr 8, 2005

And you miss the point as well, as do many of us. It isn't about evolution or creation but about spending your time rather speaking Jesus Christ crucified. Obviously, if one has as many posts as Vance has here in this forum, one hasn't or doesn't care to hear what Billy has said.

herev · Apr 9, 2005

SBG said:
And you miss the point as well, as do many of us. It isn't about evolution or creation but about spending your time rather speaking Jesus Christ crucified. Obviously, if one has as many posts as Vance has here in this forum, one hasn't or doesn't care to hear what Billy has said.

oh, dear, but...nevermind

Smidlee · Apr 9, 2005

Vance said:
"I don't think that there's any conflict at all between science today and
the Scriptures. I think that we have misinterpreted the Scriptures many
times and we've tried to make the Scriptures say things they weren't meant
to say, I think that we have made a mistake by thinking the Bible is a
scientific book. The Bible is not a book of science. The Bible is a book
of Redemption, and of course I accept the Creation story. I believe that
God did create the universe. I believe that God created man, and whether
it came by an evolutionary process and at a certain point He took this
person or being and made him a living soul or not, does not change the fact
that God did create man. ..... whichever way God did it makes no
difference as to what man is and man's relationship to God."

(Quoted in David Frost, 1997, Billy Graham: Personal Thoughts of a Public Man, p. 72-74.)

In another words Billy Graham as always takes the middle of the road approach just like a politician. Am I supposed to be surprised? Quoting someone like Billy Graham/Pope only convinces me more that evolution is a WORLDLY doctrine. The world loves Billy Graham and the Pope which should sound an alarm to any christian anyways. John 15:19 " If ye were of the world, the world love his own; but because ye are not of the world, but have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you. " " Remember the word that I said unto you, the servant is not greater than his lord. if they have persecuted me, they will also persucute you, if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also."
Isn't it something how those like Billy Graham and many politicans seems to get along with each other and pat each other on the back. So of course ole Billy will give a politician reply on anything to please the masses.

As far as people getting saved, this is because of the Word not the man. For I know someone personally who was saved by the Word of God in a cult. This man was saved in spite of the cult not because of it.

Sascha Fitzpatrick · Apr 9, 2005

Yet another example of CHRISTIANS tearing down another Christian...

Sasch

Smidlee · Apr 9, 2005

Sascha Fitzpatrick said:
Yet another example of CHRISTIANS tearing down another Christian...

Sasch

\
Just like the old testament where God's prophet was killed because they stood up againest the false doctrine other so call prophets. I notice these prophets like Jeremiah never said the other prophets didn't belong to God yet he wasn't never afraid to stand againest these prophet and still proclaim " Thus saith the Lord. Notice how the prophets who proclaim the truth was very unpopular while the lying prophet was very welcome in the king's palace. Even back then those who stood on truth was seen as trouble makers.

Sascha Fitzpatrick · Apr 9, 2005

Who CARES???

Is this REALLY going to decide on whether you get to heaven? Is 'telling people what happened in creation' what is going to prove your witness???

Yes, it's fine to debate with each other about what we read from the Bible, but calling someone's faith into question because they disagree on something that ISN'T completely clear in the Bible (obviously it's not, otherwise we'd all agree identically), sounds highly phariseeical...

So Billy believes God could have used evolution as a way to create man - who cares? The fact is GOD STILL CREATED IT!!!

Start focussing on what God wants us to focus on - loving one another and getting them to heaven. A disagreement on how God created the world isn't going to affect that!

Sasch

Here is what Billy Graham thinks . . .

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