I guess my question would be, if they're unregenerate, why are they members in the first place?
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Dr. James R. White is reputed to have made the following comment:
"I am convinced that nothing drives Pastors from their pulpits in greater numbers than trying to lead an unregenerate membership."
Comments? Thoughts?
It's a swing. It's a hit!I guess my question would be, if they're unregenerate, why are they members in the first place?
What I'm concerned about are the ones who are ignorant of scripture. Repentence of sin needs to be preached right along with forgiveness and love. How many people go forward and after repeating a prayer think themselves saved never repenting of sin or even know what sin is.
52376802]It's a swing. It's a hit![/COLOR]
You got it brother. If you're looking for my answer, I'd say it has a great deal to do with the pseudo-gospel being preached in many Baptist churches today. As long as someone makes a profession, prays a prayer, signs a decision card etc., he is uncritically received into membership --- and we're paying a heavy price for it.
It's a swing. It's a hit!
You got it brother. If you're looking for my answer, I'd say it has a great deal to do with the pseudo-gospel being preached in many Baptist churches today. As long as someone makes a profession, prays a prayer, signs a decision card etc., he is uncritically received into membership --- and we're paying a heavy price for it.
Well...that would be in part to some of the leadership at Lifeway who chooses the lessons for the SS literature. (I met her...and neither of us liked each other at first glance) I know that there is a man named as the Editor In Cheif...but there is a woman over all of the EICs. She has a line of beliefs that has led to the "dumbing down" of the lessons...and has only accepted those lessons that fit within her line of thought.
But also "I will write the laws upon their hearts".
And this is also something that I try wherever I go is that too many "christianese" words are thrown about that many simply don't have the vocabulary to understand. (Public school graduates is what are what we are dealing with here) So..."we need to simplify the language without simplifying the lessons" has been my mantra for a long time.
But the people are coming...they are very interested in God and what He is about...they are eager to hear and understand and be taught to understand well enough to feed themselves. Instead of trying to be their only source for information concerning God...and claim them heretics when they don't see it that way...teach them how to teach themselves and be more happy about the Kingdom of Heaven than our church membership roles.
1. What is membership? Membership in the local church is merely the formal recognition that a person has become a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ and has been baptized in keeping with that profession. "So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls." [Ac. 2:41/NASB] A local church member is simply a professing Christian who has been deemed genuine by a local gathering of believers. However, since God alone knows those who are His, the decision to admit a member is always fallible.So? what is memebership? what is your requirements for it? How do your answers square with Scripture?
I don't see special classes or any such thing as being biblical. What we need is to teach and preach the Bible and have the courage to hold people accountable. IMO, a profession of faith makes them a brother and we are free to hold them to the biblical standard (with grace and mercy understanding honest growth of course....we can't hold a new convert to the same standard as a learned brother, we need to use the opportunity to challenge, teach, and grow)
Sorry, membership leads to discipleship IMO.
1. What is membership? Membership in the local church is merely the formal recognition that a person has become a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ and has been baptized in keeping with that profession. "So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls." [Ac. 2:41/NASB] A local church member is simply a professing Christian who has been deemed genuine by a local gathering of believers. However, since God alone knows those who are His, the decision to admit a member is always fallible.
2. How do my answers square with Scripture? I am a committed biblicist. The gospel as preached by the Lord and His Apostles centers on the command to repent and believe [Mk. 1:15]. A truly converted person will produce righteous fruit [Eph. 2:10]. The leaders of the church are empowered to enforce righteousness in the body [Ti. 1:9]. Those who walk in disobedience to the Word are to be disciplined [1 Cor. 5:12]. If sinners are not disciplined, their sinfulness will contaminate the whole body [1 Cor. 5:6].
It is my contention that the "gospel", as it is preached in many evangelical churches today, is NOT the gospel at all. Rather than preaching on the weightier issues of the Word -- sin, repentance, obedience, sovereign grace, etc. -- we see preachers gently inviting the lost to become friends with God.
Tell Jesus you've made some mistakes and you're sorry. That's NOT the gospel!
Accept Jesus into your heart and he'll forgive you of all your sins, heal your diseases, and help you to fulfill your personal potential. That's NOT the gospel!
God wants to be your friend, and he's really hoping you'll receive him by faith...but he respects your free will. That's NOT the gospel!
The gospel might be better preached something like this:
You are a spiritually dead [1 Cor. 15:22] wreched sinner deserving of God's eternal wrath [Ro. 3:10-23; 6:23].
You cannot save yourself from impending hell [Ro. 5:6].
Because of His great love [Jn. 3:16], God commands you to repent of your sins and believe the good news concerning His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ [Mk. 1:15]. Both repentance and belief are ongoing characteristics of the redeemed life.
A person is saved by God given grace, through God given faith [Eph. 2:8-9] and not by works. Nevertheless, all genuinely redeemed people will demonstrate their converted state through the commission of righteous works [Eph. 2:10].
Christians must continuously test themselves to see whether they are in the faith [2 Cor. 13:5]. Therefore, I will not presume to welcome you into the kingdom of God, since only God knows whether your profession of faith is genuine.
Christ will one day return [Ac. 1:11] to judge the living and the dead [Ac. 10:42].
Those whom Christ saves have always been known to Him [Jn. 6:64] and cannot be lost [Jn. 10:27-28].
1. What is membership? Membership in the local church is merely the formal recognition that a person has become a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ and has been baptized in keeping with that profession. "So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls." [Ac. 2:41/NASB] A local church member is simply a professing Christian who has been deemed genuine by a local gathering of believers. However, since God alone knows those who are His, the decision to admit a member is always fallible.
2. How do my answers square with Scripture? I am a committed biblicist. The gospel as preached by the Lord and His Apostles centers on the command to repent and believe [Mk. 1:15]. A truly converted person will produce righteous fruit [Eph. 2:10]. The leaders of the church are empowered to enforce righteousness in the body [Ti. 1:9]. Those who walk in disobedience to the Word are to be disciplined [1 Cor. 5:12]. If sinners are not disciplined, their sinfulness will contaminate the whole body [1 Cor. 5:6].
It is my contention that the "gospel", as it is preached in many evangelical churches today, is NOT the gospel at all. Rather than preaching on the weightier issues of the Word -- sin, repentance, obedience, sovereign grace, etc. -- we see preachers gently inviting the lost to become friends with God.
Tell Jesus you've made some mistakes and you're sorry. That's NOT the gospel!
Accept Jesus into your heart and he'll forgive you of all your sins, heal your diseases, and help you to fulfill your personal potential. That's NOT the gospel!
agreed!
God wants to be your friend, and he's really hoping you'll receive him by faith...but he respects your free will. That's NOT the gospel!
agreed!
The gospel might be better preached something like this:
You are a spiritually dead [1 Cor. 15:22] wreched sinner deserving of God's eternal wrath [Ro. 3:10-23; 6:23]. agreed
You cannot save yourself from impending hell [Ro. 5:6]. agreed
Because of His great love [Jn. 3:16], God commands you to repent of your sins and believe the good news concerning His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ [Mk. 1:15]. Both repentance and belief are ongoing characteristics of the redeemed life. agreed, we are to bear fruit in keeping with repentance
A person is saved by God given grace, through God given faith [Eph. 2:8-9] and not by works. Nevertheless, all genuinely redeemed people will demonstrate their converted state through the commission of righteous works [Eph. 2:10]. agreed, we do good works because we are saved, not in order to be saved
Christians must continuously test themselves to see whether they are in the faith [2 Cor. 13:5]. Therefore, I will not presume to welcome you into the kingdom of God, since only God knows whether your profession of faith is genuine. agreed in part...see note below
Christ will one day return [Ac. 1:11] to judge the living and the dead [Ac. 10:42]. agreed
Those whom Christ saves have always been known to Him [Jn. 6:64] and cannot be lost [Jn. 10:27-28]. agreed
... Oh sure, real Christians aren't generated as quickly as the fakes, or in such mind blowing numbers as Joel Osteen draws each week; but if we are truly mindful of eternal things, the value of simple Bible preaching becomes quickly evident.
As a Pastor, I continue to be greatly distressed at the exceedingly low bar many evangelical churches use when accepting new members. Please understand what I'm suggesting here: In order to be well convinced that a person's profession of faith is genuine, it seems necessary to question the candidate thoroughly as to his beliefs. Those beliefs need to be soundly consistent with the biblical gospel. While we can't expect new Christians to have a PhD comprehension of Christian theology, we must certainly insist that they understand the basic message of the gospel. Merely asking a candidate "Do you believe in Jesus?" is a great deal different than pursuing that person's definition of who Jesus is, what "believe" means, and so forth. When churches are so desirous to add another member that they fail to be discerning in these basic matters of the faith, they're asking for trouble. This, I am convinced, is where many of our unregenerated members come from.So, in the Bible it seems they were equally "uncritical" of those who were added as members. There is no record of someone having to take classes, or prove themselves.
I asked my questions because you pointed to be uncritical when bringing new members as a reason for the current condition of the church.
I agree that some churches make more out of membership than the Scripture allows. However, I do not agree with the above (highlighted) statement. I most certainly DO believe that I can know if I'm saved [1 Jn. 5:13], but I cannot know for certain if you are. I know my heart, but I can't know yours; only God does. Therefore, I am forced to receive you as my brother based on your profession. Note that 2 Cor. 13:5 states: "Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you--unless indeed you fail the test?" I don't test you, and you don't test me. We are responsible before God to ensure that our own lives are bearing fruit in keeping with righteousness.Most of what you wrote I agree with, however, you seem to paint yourself into a corner. You essentially say we cannot know people are saved, or even really know that we are saved. However, you also indicate you understand the importance of checking the fruit of people. so, with your line of thinking, we need to be more critical but we are unable to do so. I would contend that membership has no "rolls" and we make more out of it than the Bible supports. I wholly support accountability and holding one another up to the biblical standards. We have ignored sin for far too long. I would also suggest that not only can we know we are saved (I believe in eternal security) and by exmaining fruit we can know who our brothers are.
My brother, I'm not challenging that Christians are known to the world by our love for one another; but it seems a stretch to conclude from Jn. 13:35 that we can discern the sincerity of another person's faith in this manner. For example, Jesus knew Judas was going to betray Him [Jn. 13:21], yet the other disciples were clueless. If your theory is correct, should not the others have been able to discern that Judas was a false disciple?The Bible tells us we can know we are saved. 1 John 5:13 The Bible also says that people will know we are Christians by our love for one another. John 13:35
I am sure we are actually quite close to our thinking on these issues.
We are told to examine ourselves but I don't recall anywhere we are told to examine our brothers. Examining each other too easily leads to judgementalism and legalism. When you have taken the tree trunk out of your own eye then you can see to take the speck out of your brother's.If we paid more attention to our own faith we wouldn't have time to examine the faith of others. It has never been our job to keep the church pure or to fence it with rules and examinations. If it was pure before we came it ceased to be when we entered.
Act 16:29 And he called for lights and rushed in, and trembling with fear he fell down before Paul and Silas,
Act 16:30 and after he brought them out, he said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
Act 16:31 They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."
Act 16:32 And they spoke the word of the Lord to him together with all who were in his house.
Act 16:33 And he took them that very hour of the night and washed their wounds, and immediately he was baptized, he and all his household.
no classes and no inquisition here
Act 16:14 A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul.
Act 16:15 And when she and her household had been baptized, she urged us, saying, "If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house and stay." And she prevailed upon us.
again, no drawn out process
Act 2:38 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
looks like a pretty quick process again
Act 8:13 Even Simon himself believed; and after being baptized, he continued on with Philip, and as he observed signs and great miracles taking place, he was constantly amazed.
Act 8:14 Now when the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent them Peter and John,
Act 8:15 who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit.
Act 8:16 For He had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Act 8:17 Then they began laying their hands on them, and they were receiving the Holy Spirit.
Act 8:18 Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was bestowed through the laying on of the apostles' hands, he offered them money,
Act 8:19 saying, "Give this authority to me as well, so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit."
Act 8:20 But Peter said to him, "May your silver perish with you, because you thought you could obtain the gift of God with money!
Act 8:21 "You have no part or portion in this matter, for your heart is not right before God.
Act 8:22 "Therefore repent of this wickedness of yours, and pray the Lord that, if possible, the intention of your heart may be forgiven you.
Act 8:23 "For I see that you are in the gall of bitterness and in the bondage of iniquity."
The examination and accountability came later here
Act 8:36 As they went along the road they came to some water; and the eunuch *said, "Look! Water! What prevents me from being baptized?"
Act 8:37 [And Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may." And he answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."]
Act 8:38 And he ordered the chariot to stop; and they both went down into the water, Philip as well as the eunuch, and he baptized him.
Act 8:39 When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord snatched Philip away; and the eunuch no longer saw him, but went on his way rejoicing.
still no long process
then there is this....
Mat 13:24 Jesus presented another parable to them, saying, "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field.
Mat 13:25"But while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went away.
Mat 13:26"But when the wheat sprouted and bore grain, then the tares became evident also.
Mat 13:27"The slaves of the landowner came and said to him, 'Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?'
Mat 13:28"And he said to them, 'An enemy has done this!' The slaves *said to him, 'Do you want us, then, to go and gather them up?'
Mat 13:29"But he *said, 'No; for while you are gathering up the tares, you may uproot the wheat with them.
Mat 13:30'Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn."'"
We are told to examine ourselves but I don't recall anywhere we are told to examine our brothers. Examining each other too easily leads to judgementalism and legalism. When you have taken the tree trunk out of your own eye then you can see to take the speck out of your brother's.If we paid more attention to our own faith we wouldn't have time to examine the faith of others. It has never been our job to keep the church pure or to fence it with rules and examinations. If it was pure before we came it ceased to be when we entered.
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