Help!?

[AmandaLynn1288]

Hi! I was wondering if someone could give me like a general description of what Dispensationalism is. Any information will help! Thanks, and God bless!!

 

[Dave Taylor]

Hi! I was wondering if someone could give me like a general description of what Dispensationalism is. Any information will help! Thanks, and God bless!!

Amanda,
Dispensationalism is an endtime interpretive approach that was created in the 19th century by John Darby, and popularized in the 20th century via the Scoffield Reference Bible and its external footnotes and commentary by Cyrus Scoffield.

Fundamentally this view teaches:

1) God has primarily two groups of people(sometimes they are further divided as mentioned later), who should never be united or combined; but must alway remain distinct from one another. A) Israel and B) the NT Church. They have different promises, destinies, and purposes; and shall never be united as one group.

2) Christ will descend from Heaven two more times; a second coming from Heaven in secret to gather the church from the planet; then a third coming from Heaven 7 years later to destroy some of the wicked (not all) Some wicked will be exempt from destruction, so they can repopulate the Earth

3) Many resurrections of believers will occur; depending on which group of God's people you might belong to. There are OT Saints, 1st Century AD Pre-Pentecost Saints, Church Age Saints, Trib Saints, Mill Saints, etc...and dispensationalism requires them to not be intermixed or confused; but to be rightly divided into their intended groups; and their intended destinies and intended resurrections. Some groups will be resurrected at the secret 2nd Coming of Christ from Heaven, some will be resurrected at the visible 3rd Coming of Christ from Heaven, some will be resurrected 1000 years after that.

4) Following the 2nd Coming, God will allow Israel to rebuild the stone temple, and will reinstitute animal sacrifices of bulls and goats for sin offerings for the purification and sanctification of the people who live during the Premill Kingdom. Also, physical circumscion will be reistituted again, as a sign of belief and servanthood to God during this age.

5) Israel will be elevated to a role of leadership over all other nations of the Earth. Gentiles who disobey will be sternly punished.

6) Mortals (those who escape judgment at Armegeddon, and repopulate the Earth) will be ruled by immortals who partook of the Pretrib rapture and are now in glorified immortal bodies. They will intermingle, but primarily, the immortals who are 'the church age saints' will primarily abode in Heaven while Israel and the wicked gentile survivors will abode on the Earth.

7) Some dispensationalists teach that salvation is also different depending on which group one belongs to. All agree that the church-age saints receive salvation through grace and faith in Jesus Christ. Many dispensationalists, have, however, taught that the Mill saints, as well as the OT saints, must do works to merit their salvation. Only the church-age saints are saved by grace through faith. This is a church-only charateristic of salvation for Christ's Bride, who alone is the church-age saints.

8) The OT saints, as well as the Trib saints, and Mill saints, are not apart of the bride of Christ. They are guests or friends of the bridegroom....but shall never be His bride...we must divide them out in the right manner, according to Dispensationalism.


There are more points that describe dispensationalism Amanda, but those are usually the most commonly discussed points.

The main thing to remember with dispensationalism, is that God does not have one chosen people or group....and Israel and the Church can never be joined, reconciled, or combined into being one body and one unified group. They must remain eternally distinct and separate; according to dispensationalism.

Also Amanda, realize that the view of Dispensationalism isn't the only view held within the Church. (remember it originated in the 19th century).

You can read some well-written critiques of Dispensationalism at: http://www.graceonlinelibrary.org/articles/subcats.asp?id=9|21

And if you would like to read about the altnerative view to Dispensationalism, the actual historic view of the church that pre-dates Dispensationalism all the way back to the post-apostilic early church fathers of the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd centuries A.D., you can read some of these article:
http://www.graceonlinelibrary.org/articles/subcats.asp?id=9|24

 

[LamorakDesGalis]

Dispensationalism is a theological system that heavily emphasizes progressive revelation. That is, dispensationalists highly regard the original OT meaning of God's promises to the original audience, with the result that dispensationalists hold:
1) Israel and the Church are distinct, and that
2) Israel has a prophetic future.

All dispensationalists hold to a premillennial position - that is, Jesus will return to earth and setup a millennial reign with Jerusalem at the center. Most dispensationalists are pretribulation with regard to the rapture.

Dispensationalism is decentralized and non-denominational. That is, while there are recognized dispensational writers, colleges or seminaries, no one person or institution "rules them all" or dictates beliefs. Dispensationalism is non-denominational in that dispensationalists are found in all kinds of denominations and churches. Dispensationalists are found all over the spectrum of conservative evangelical Christianity.

While basic elements of dispensationalism are found throughout church history, the development of present day dispensationalism is dated from the 1800s.

Lamorak Des Galis

 

[LamorakDesGalis]

The main thing to remember with dispensationalism, is that God does not have one chosen people or group....and Israel and the Church can never be joined, reconciled, or combined into being one body and one unified group. They must remain eternally distinct and separate; according to dispensationalism.

Dave,
I appreciate the time you put into this, but much of what you have described would only reflect some classic dispensationalists or possibly some of the ultra (mid-acts/Acts 28) points of view. The vast majority of dispensationalists today - both traditional and progressive dispensationalists - do not hold to many of the points you described.

For example, mainstream dispensationalists hold that the church and Israel are distinct, but they are not mutually exclusive - nor do they have different eternal destinies. Israel consists of believing and unbelieving Jews, while the church consists of believing Jews and believing Gentiles in this present dispensation. Paul and Peter are examples of those who are members of Israel and also members of the church. Israel and the church do not have different eternal destinies - all the redeemed from all the dispensations will be together in eternity after the millennium.

Nor do dispensationalists (classic or mainstream) believe anyone was saved by works. Statements by Scofield and other early classic dispensationalists were misconstrued by opponents to teach a radical law-grace distinction and law-based salvation. Charles Ryrie's book Dispensationalism Today and The New Scofield Reference Bible (1967) notes explain how dispensationalists hold that grace is present in all dispensations, dispelling the earlier charges. Daniel Fuller, a non-dispensationalist, stated in his book Gospel and Law (p. 51) that "Although today's dispensationalism explains the relationship between law and grace in wording that is different from that of covenant theology, there is no substantial difference in meaning."

Lamorak Des Galis

 

[Dispy]

Amanda,
Dispensationalism is an endtime interpretive approach that was created in the 19th century by John Darby, and popularized in the 20th century via the Scoffield Reference Bible and its external footnotes and commentary by Cyrus Scoffield.

Fundamentally this view teaches:

1) God has primarily two groups of people(sometimes they are further divided as mentioned later), who should never be united or combined; but must alway remain distinct from one another. A) Israel and B) the NT Church. They have different promises, destinies, and purposes; and shall never be united as one group.

2) Christ will descend from Heaven two more times; a second coming from Heaven in secret to gather the church from the planet; then a third coming from Heaven 7 years later to destroy some of the wicked (not all) Some wicked will be exempt from destruction, so they can repopulate the Earth

3) Many resurrections of believers will occur; depending on which group of God's people you might belong to. There are OT Saints, 1st Century AD Pre-Pentecost Saints, Church Age Saints, Trib Saints, Mill Saints, etc...and dispensationalism requires them to not be intermixed or confused; but to be rightly divided into their intended groups; and their intended destinies and intended resurrections. Some groups will be resurrected at the secret 2nd Coming of Christ from Heaven, some will be resurrected at the visible 3rd Coming of Christ from Heaven, some will be resurrected 1000 years after that.

4) Following the 2nd Coming, God will allow Israel to rebuild the stone temple, and will reinstitute animal sacrifices of bulls and goats for sin offerings for the purification and sanctification of the people who live during the Premill Kingdom. Also, physical circumscion will be reistituted again, as a sign of belief and servanthood to God during this age.

5) Israel will be elevated to a role of leadership over all other nations of the Earth. Gentiles who disobey will be sternly punished.

6) Mortals (those who escape judgment at Armegeddon, and repopulate the Earth) will be ruled by immortals who partook of the Pretrib rapture and are now in glorified immortal bodies. They will intermingle, but primarily, the immortals who are 'the church age saints' will primarily abode in Heaven while Israel and the wicked gentile survivors will abode on the Earth.

7) Some dispensationalists teach that salvation is also different depending on which group one belongs to. All agree that the church-age saints receive salvation through grace and faith in Jesus Christ. Many dispensationalists, have, however, taught that the Mill saints, as well as the OT saints, must do works to merit their salvation. Only the church-age saints are saved by grace through faith. This is a church-only charateristic of salvation for Christ's Bride, who alone is the church-age saints.

8) The OT saints, as well as the Trib saints, and Mill saints, are not apart of the bride of Christ. They are guests or friends of the bridegroom....but shall never be His bride...we must divide them out in the right manner, according to Dispensationalism.


There are more points that describe dispensationalism Amanda, but those are usually the most commonly discussed points.

The main thing to remember with dispensationalism, is that God does not have one chosen people or group....and Israel and the Church can never be joined, reconciled, or combined into being one body and one unified group. They must remain eternally distinct and separate; according to dispensationalism.

Also Amanda, realize that the view of Dispensationalism isn't the only view held within the Church. (remember it originated in the 19th century).

You can read some well-written critiques of Dispensationalism at: http://www.graceonlinelibrary.org/articles/subcats.asp?id=9|21

And if you would like to read about the altnerative view to Dispensationalism, the actual historic view of the church that pre-dates Dispensationalism all the way back to the post-apostilic early church fathers of the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd centuries A.D., you can read some of these article:
http://www.graceonlinelibrary.org/articles/subcats.asp?id=9|24

Dave:
I consider myself a non-denominational mid-Acts dispensationalist. Much of what you have posted is misleading, and in error.

Dispensationalism is not a denomination or specific doctrine. It is just the manner in which one studies the Bible.

MAN has put dispensationalist in different catagories. There are many different dispensational beliefs just as there are many denominations in the protestant churches.

Most dispensationalists will agree that attributes of God never change. He is the same today as He was yesterday, and will still be the same tomarrow. However, God has changed the manner in which Has dealt with man throughout the ages. The periods between those changes have been called "dispensations." Before the Fall, we call "the dispensation of Innocense." After the fall God gave Adam and Eve a consience to know right from wrong. This is called "the dispensation of conscience. "The dispensation of human government" was initiated after the flood. We have "the dispensation of promise" given to Abram. With Moses inter "the dispensation of Law." "The dispensation of Grace" began with the setting aside of Israel and the raising up of Saul/Paul." With the 2nd coming of Christ we will inter the "dispensation of the kingdom."

Dispensationalism WAS NOT a man made invention as some say. Dispensations are often defined as "time periods" or "earas." There is no set amounts of dispensations that can be found in the Bible. In Ephesians 2 alone we can find 3 dispensation. In verses 11-12 we have TIMES PAST, as how things used to be. In vs.12 we have [bd]BUT NOW,[/b] the way things are now. In vs 7 we have THE AGES TO COME, when God brings into furition His plans for the ages.

There are three major groups that man classifies as dispensationalist. The major difference between them has to do with when did the Chruch, the Body of Christ, began.

The largest group, believe that the Church started at Pentecost, in Acts 2. The believe in water baptism and the Lord's supper as two ordinances that are still in effect today.

Then we have the Acts 9/mid-Acts dispies, which I claim to be. We believe that the Chruch, the Body of Christ. begam with the raising up of Saul/Paul, after the stoning of Stephen in Acts 7. We do not believe that water baptism is needed in this dispensation, and that the Lord's Supper is not an ordinance. However, we do observe it as a memorial to the Lord's death, in accordance with 1Cor.11:26.

The Acts 28:28 dispies believe that the Chruch, the Body of Christ, began in Acts 28:28 after Paul had received the full knowledge of the mystery. They do not believe that water baptism or the Lord's supper is to be observed in this dispensation.

Acts 9/mid-Acts dispies, along with Acts 28:28 dispies, are often referred to as Ultra/extreme/or hyper. These are man made titles to make us look as some type of radical heritics.

We do not believe that the Church, the Body of Christ is Spiritual Israel. That members of the Chruch, the Body of Christ, will be raptured to heaven at the close of this dispensation of grace, and not go through the Tribulation.

We believe that after the rapture of the Church, the Tribulation will follow, and at the end of the Tribulation; Jesus will resturn and establish His kingdom upon the earth for 1,000 years. That all those in the OT time, and those NT saints saved under the preaching of "the gospel of the kingdom," will inherit the earthly kingdom.

This, I believe, is a more accurate portrial of dispensationalism then yours.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

 

[JDS]

"2) Christ will descend from Heaven two more times; a second coming from Heaven in secret to gather the church from the planet; then a third coming from Heaven 7 years later to destroy some of the wicked (not all) Some wicked will be exempt from destruction, so they can repopulate the Earth"

Not true!

There will be no unsaved people, either of Israel or the gentiles that will enter into the physical kingdom of Christ when he returns to "Ac 15:16 After this (after what? See verse 14 for the answer) I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:"

The 144,000 Jewish evangelists will preach with the sovereign protection of God so none are lost and they are the first saved under the ministry of the two witnesses, Moses and Elijah, who God sends from heaven after the rapture of the church. (See RE 11). One can only hope that everyone knows how 'Firstfruits' is used consistently in Scripture and what it means because it is the term God uses in association of these men.

Re 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, [being] the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

This passage should dispel any rumors that God will accept the unbelievers and wicked into his kingdom!

MT 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: (One should read the prophecy from RE 20 here) 32 And before him shall be gathered all NATIONS: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren (The King's brethren are the Jews and he is speaking specifically of the tribulation time when Satan makes and all out effort to rid the world of them), ye have done it unto me. 41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

There will be no unsaved from Israel in the kingdom when he establishes his national New Covenant with them:

31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: 33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

One would hope that everyone understands that "after those days" means after the days of the Old Covenant of law, in context, and when he takes away their sins, which he has not done yet but will be accomplished by taking away the sinners, a feat that will be accomplished by the fiery furnace of affliction which is the tribulation.

11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

The Holy Ghost baptism took place in Acts 2, and the following fire baptism takes place in the Tribulation, as described in verse 12.

12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD (The Day of the Lord is always, without exception, a reference to the tribulation time) cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

Here is the promise that " ALL '" Israel will be saved and when!

RO 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. 28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes.l, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes.

When did he say it would happen? After the fullness of the gentiles be come in!

"...Some groups will be resurrected at the secret 2nd Coming of Christ from Heaven, some will be resurrected at the visible 3rd Coming of Christ from Heaven, some will be resurrected 1000 years after that."

The rapture of the church is not a secret but it will be a surprise and a seal of doom for the unbelievers and nay-sayers, because God will not save anyone who has rejected his salvation from this age. It is a sin that is unpardonable.

Mt 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world (The word world here is Aion = age), neither in the [world] to come.

To declare the rapture of the church is a secret is to deny that God has prophecied it in type and has written NT books about it (1 Thess) and has given information about it from GE to RE. IT IS NOT A SECRET! Fundamentalist christians are preaching about it every day! Christ tells the believers to watch and be ready. What is secret about that? He is only saying that he is coming for the church as a thief would come. That is unnanounced, quickly, and that he would only take that which is precious.

There is much mis-information from those who would preach the Satanic gospel and deny the promises of God in the name of religious denominationalism. I say to you; BEWARE!

 

[Dave Taylor]

JDS,
I agree with alot of what you said.
I definately do not agree with alot of what I said, just listing many of the popular tenants of Dispensationalism.

As for saying the rapture is secret, perhaps you don't prefer that word, but dispensationalism teaches it will be an invisible coming of Christ from Heaven, and Christ won't be seen; therefore the use of the word 'secret'.

Your idea that there will be no wicked who either escape to enter into the Premill Kingdom (or are found within it afterwards) sounds more like historic Postmill or Amill than any flavor of Premillennialism (whichever Dispensational camp within it).

Dispensationalism is almost unanimous in interpretting Ezekiel 40-48, Isaiah 65, and Zechariah 14 as being venued after the Glorious Appearing and during the Premill Kingdom.

Anyone who agrees with this common dispensational teaching on these verses won't have to read any of them very long to find wicked sinners involved in the population of the Earth during that future supposed era.

 

[heymikey80]

Hi! I was wondering if someone could give me like a general description of what Dispensationalism is. Any information will help! Thanks, and God bless!!

There's the basic assertion, and then there're the principles that guide that basic assertion.

The basic assertion is that dispensations are time periods God sets up under which God tests people according to some particular revealed principle. Or as Scofield put it, "A dispensation is a period of time during which man is tested in respect of obedience to some specific revelation of the will of God."

Covenantal thinkers also believe in progressive revelation. New Covenant thinkers believe in the separation of Jew and Gentile. This is the constant that I've always found among dispensationalists.

Dispensations tend to be more separate than unified, too. A particular dispensation doesn't receive the instruction of a prior dispensation unless it's reiterated or easily derived in the later one.

 

[JDS]

JDS,
I agree with alot of what you said.
I definately do not agree with alot of what I said, just listing many of the popular tenants of Dispensationalism.

As for saying the rapture is secret, perhaps you don't prefer that word, but dispensationalism teaches it will be an invisible coming of Christ from Heaven, and Christ won't be seen; therefore the use of the word 'secret'.

Your idea that there will be no wicked who either escape to enter into the Premill Kingdom (or are found within it afterwards) sounds more like historic Postmill or Amill than any flavor of Premillennialism (whichever Dispensational camp within it).

Dispensationalism is almost unanimous in interpretting Ezekiel 40-48, Isaiah 65, and Zechariah 14 as being venued after the Glorious Appearing and during the Premill Kingdom.

Anyone who agrees with this common dispensational teaching on these verses won't have to read any of them very long to find wicked sinners involved in the population of the Earth during that future supposed era.

Thanks, Dave Taylor, for your response. I think I was not clear enough about what I said about the wicked in the mil reign. I said; "There will be no unsaved people, either of Israel or the gentiles that will enter into the physical kingdom of Christ when he returns to...."

The key words here are 'enter', and, "when he returns." I think all of us agree that our Lords reign will be one thousand years long and a time of perfect peace and almost no death. There will be many born during this time and they will be confronted with the gospel of Jesus Christ. Though there will be no outward rebellion permitted, the heart of man is still wicked and we learn that many unfortunately will not submit their hearts to Christ and will follow Satan in his final rebellion against God during the 'little season' during which he is permitted freedom from his prison. We are told this here;

RE 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

"the number of whom is as the sand of the sea" is a tremendous number of unsaved people who are willing in a moment of time to follow Satan. This is incredible to me, but I believe it. It does not mean though that these rebels were the first into the kingdom of Christ on earth especially since the purpose of the tribulation is the reserved time to judge the world.

Job 21:30 That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath.

Ac 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day (That would be the Day of the Lord), in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by [that] man whom he hath ordained; [whereof] he hath given assurance unto all [men], in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Re 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

BTW, read about his wrath in all the prophets of the OT and the NT and it is always future tense until RE 6:17 when it is said to have arrived.

My understanding of the Scriptures concerning this time period is that God is going to save a multitude from the nations of the world under the preaching of the 70,000 teams of world wide Jewish evangelists, many, if not most of which will be slain by the Anti-Christ and these will be the ones allowed into the kingdom of Christ. Of course, we have already seen where he is purging out the chaff of Israel and we know that there will be a judgment of Israel first and then the gentiles who are left during those days between his Glorious coming and his setting up the kingdom during which the lost will be cast into hell. This is consistent with a very clear and sobering satement about the event made here.

1 TH 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and "FROM" (Emphasis mine) the glory of his power; ( Ask yourself; What is the glory of his power?)
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

This can be referencing no other time than this and it seems quite clear to me.

I hope this is more clear as to my meaning!

 

[Dave Taylor]

My understanding of the Scriptures concerning this time period is that God is going to save a multitude from the nations of the world under the preaching of the 70,000 teams of world wide Jewish evangelists

JDS,
In this hypothetical scenerio above, if there are people being saved as a result of preaching and evangelism....then wouldn't the 'evangelists' have to be Christian evangelists preaching the gospel of Christ, for salvation to occur?

When you say 'Jewish Evangelists' it sounds as if they are preaching Judaism, which cannot save anyone, for Christ only is able to keep the laws of Judaism perfectly, and therefore not be condemned by the Law.

Paul a quite famous Pharisee of the Jews wrote to the Corinthians:

2 Corinthians 4:5 "For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord"

Later Paul wrote to the Colossians:

Colossians 3:11 "Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all"

Wouldn't a early requirement of them being evangelical preachers, be that they have foregone the old things, and have been made a new Creature in Christ as described below:

2 Corinthians 5:17 "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."
and
Romans 8:8 "So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."


Just wanting to clarify that it is Christians in focus, not followers of Judaism and the Jewish religion (excluding Christ)

 

[JDS]

JDS,
In this hypothetical scenerio above, if there are people being saved as a result of preaching and evangelism....then wouldn't the 'evangelists' have to be Christian evangelists preaching the gospel of Christ, for salvation to occur?

When you say 'Jewish Evangelists' it sounds as if they are preaching Judaism, which cannot save anyone, for Christ only is able to keep the laws of Judaism perfectly, and therefore not be condemned by the Law.

Paul a quite famous Pharisee of the Jews wrote to the Corinthians:

2 Corinthians 4:5 "For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord"

Later Paul wrote to the Colossians:

Colossians 3:11 "Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all"

Wouldn't a early requirement of them being evangelical preachers, be that they have foregone the old things, and have been made a new Creature in Christ as described below:

2 Corinthians 5:17 "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."
and
Romans 8:8 "So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."


Just wanting to clarify that it is Christians in focus, not followers of Judaism and the Jewish religion (excluding Christ)

"In this hypothetical scenerio above, if there are people being saved as a result of preaching and evangelism....then wouldn't the 'evangelists' have to be Christian evangelists preaching the gospel of Christ, for salvation to occur?"

Dave Taylor,

I did not intend this to be a hypothetical scenario. I posted this verse and concluded the time prriod was the tribulation because of the language. Lets try it again;

2 Th 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

I do not understand your point. Just because the church has been raptured does not mean that people are not saved by the blood of Jesus Christ from that point on. Take a look at RE 6 where the 144,000 are first mentioned and immediately afterward we see the multitude without number under the throne with the explanation they had been slain for their testimony of the Word of God during the Great tribulation, which is the last three and one half years of the seven.
The gillotine seems to be the mechanism of choice by the anti-christ for the slaughter of believers because we have this;
Re 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Sure, the gospel of the kingdom is being preached again as it was in the gospel accounts (See MT 24:14) and an angel preaches the everlasting gospel (Re 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,) but men and women are saved by the blood of Jesus Christ which he shed on the cross.

These folks are not the church. The twenty four Elders represent the church that are in heaven from RE 4:1,2. and these are a separate group who will be resurrected with the OT saints at the glorious coming of Christ, as he says in RE 20.

I conclude that these 144,000 are evangelists because of the language used to describe them and that a multitude without number are saved in connection with them. I know that faith comes by hearing the Word of God and no one can please God without faith and, according to John's testimony of what he saw, there is an innumerable group that was slain because they believed the Word. Someone had to preach it and since there was such a large number in such a short period of time from all over the globe, there must have been a tremendous number of preachers. There was; There were 144,000 of them and like the disciples in the gospels, they were the only ones commissioned to preach it.

Obviously not every believer is slain because those who are not will admire the Lord Jesus Christ when he returns according to our passage in 2 Th 1.

I realize that you may not have thought of these things in this vein and I have made very little attempt to prove my points but these things are true and I ask you to consider them. Thanks!