Help with tongues..

RevKidd said:

So what does that mean. It means great people like Billy Graham, Martin Luther, RC Sproul, Spurgeon, CS Lewis who all preached Christ is Lord must have had the Holy Spirit...

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As believers, I believe we have the Holy Spirit (He comes to live in us), but we are not automatically baptized in the Holy Spirit. The baptism of the Holy Spirit is a distinct experience beyond salvation in the Bible. The purpose of the baptism is to be endued with power:

Acts 1:8, "But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you..."

Sometimes this can take place at the time of salvation, but many times it doesn't.

TruthSetsYouFree said:

As believers, I believe we have the Holy Spirit (He comes to live in us), but we are not automatically baptized in the Holy Spirit. The baptism of the Holy Spirit is a distinct experience beyond salvation in the Bible. The purpose of the baptism is to be endued with power:

Acts 1:8, "But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you..."

Sometimes this can take place at the time of salvation, but many times it doesn't.

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Could you provide scriptural evidence that seperates Salvation and the Baptism?

TruthSetsYouFree said:

There is a gift of tongues, which is meant for edification of the body of Christ. This is not the same as the personal prayer language tongue, which is given to everybody who is baptized in the Holy Ghost, and is meant for personal edification.

Jesus said that them who believe will speak in tongues (Mark 16:17), Jude 20 tells us to be building ourselves up praying in the Holy Ghost, etc. This is not the same kind of tongue that is meant for group edification.

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Tongues is used 2 different ways. But there is not 2 different gift of tongues. Tongues with interpretation and tongues without. One is for the body of Christ, the other is for the individual who is has the gift. Paul makes no distinction that there are two different tongues being used, only two ways to use it.

How do you come terms with Pauls statments that Not all will speak with tongues and that the Holy Spirit is the one who decides what we should have as a gift and that as a body we should not all be operating in the same gifts. It's right their in 1 Corinthians 12 - 14.

RevKidd said:

Could you provide scriptural evidence that seperates Salvation and the Baptism?

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Here's one very clear passage:


Acts 19
And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.



These men received the baptism of the Holy Spirit as a second experience after conversion.

justinstout said:

Here's one very clear passage:


Acts 19
And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.



These men received the baptism of the Holy Spirit as a second experience after conversion.

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Let me show you something....

Acts 19 is used by many church pastors, laypeople, evangelists as proof that just because you believe you still haven’t been baptized in the Holy Spirit. I fell for this one for years growing up in the UPCI church. I can’t really explain it, but the Holy Spirit explained opened my eyes to what was really going on. Let’s read.

Acts 19:1
1 And it happened, while Apollos was at Corinth, that Paul, having passed through the upper regions, came to Ephesus. And finding some disciples
2 he said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" So they said to him, "We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit."

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Most people who espouse the idea that you can believe and not have the Holy Spirit run right to Acts 19:2. They hold to the idea that the word “believed” equals being saved. Since Luke records these men as being “disciples” it assumes that they were disciples or followers or believers in Jesus Christ. However, that is not the case. Paul asks them if they have received the Holy Spirit since they believed, and they responded by saying they new nothing of a Holy Spirit.

At this point in time you have to ask, “Well why not”? If you are disciples why haven’t you heard about the Holy Spirit? And that is exactly what Paul does next.

3 And he said to them, "Into what then were you baptized?" So they said, "Into John's baptism."

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Paul in his great wisdom knew that there was a reason that these men had not received the Holy Spirit. So Paul, asked them, how were you baptized. Or what Faith were you baptized into? Remember our Baptism is an outward sign to the world of our renewing in Christ. However, these 12 men had not been baptized according to the belief and renewing salvation of Jesus Christ. Paul discovers that they were not disciples of Jesus, rather John the Baptist. Since these men were disciples of John and not Christ, they did not believe in Christ the same way as Paul did. Something in their belief kept them from being saved and Luke records what happens next.

4 Then Paul said, "John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus."

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I am not sure that Luke records everything that Paul says to the men that day. But verse 4 shows that Paul indeed taught the men the difference of being a disciple of John and being a disciple of Christ. That John prepared the way for Christ, the true Messiah. There is a good chance, that these men thought that John was the Messiah. Whatever the circumstance were, Paul knew that something was not correct in doctrine or teaching. I believe that through the Holy Spirit Paul was given wisdom to discern the truth from these men.

5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied.
7 Now the men were about twelve in all.

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After Paul taught them the Gospel truth, the men were then Baptized into the name of Jesus Christ and then Paul laid his hands on them and they began to speak in tongues and according to scripture they also Prophesied. Those of you who feel that tongues is necessary for salvation need to explain why your doctrine does not include prophesy as one of the gifts necessary for Salvation?


Acts 19 is not proof that one can believe and not receive. In fact it points to the idea that when we believe, we do receive the Holy Spirit at Salvation. We are saved by faith. At that point the spirit of God enters us to start a transformation within us. It is up to us whether or not we want to use the tools that God wants to give us.

So in short Acts 19 says...

1. The Disciples were disciples of John Not Christ.
2. They believed in the ministry of John the Baptist not Christ
3. They were Baptized, Saved and immediately excerized tongues and prophecy.
4. That prophecy, which is mentioned in by Paul in 1 Corinthians is one of the gifts of the spirit that can be evidence of the infilling along with tongues and the other 7 gifts of the spirit.

John's baptism was a baptism to repentance... The Ephesians had repented and been saved. They had not received the further baptism of the Holy Spirit.

John the Baptist prophesied here that Jesus would "baptize with the Holy Ghost and with fire." The word "baptidzo" of the Greek is used here. It means "to immerse, overwhelm, drown with..." John the Baptist immersed in water as a symbol of repentance. Jesus would immerse in the Spirit to empower.

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John 7:39 "THIS SPAKE HE OF THE SPIRIT WHICH THEY THAT BELIEVE ON HIM SHOULD RECEIVE: FOR THE HOLY SPIRIT WAS NOT YET GIVEN, BECAUSE JESUS WAS NOT YET GLORIFIED."

The Spirit is active in salvation, He immerses the repentant into Jesus unto salvation... Later, one may be baptized by Christ into the Spirit, to empower.

Both can occur at nearly the same time, or at different times. The Ephesians in Acts 19 illustrate one of the times it came following salvation. The Samaritans were being led to salvation by Philip, and when John and Peter came, the baptism of the Spirit came to them. That was another instance of a later infilling. The disciples were told that their names were written in heaven, and later, at Pentecost, they received the infilling.

The very fact that the baptism of the Spirit had come testified to the fact that Jesus had ascended to heaven and been glorified. We can rest assured that He did reach heaven by the fact that the Spirit did return. We need to take courage in the fact that the Spirit is being now poured out on all who wish to receive Him, because it is an experience that is intended to reassure us of the fact that Jesus is not dead, and buried-- but is at the right hand of the Father in heaven and interceding for us. The Holy Spirit glorifies this Jesus.
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John 16:7-15 "NEVERTHELESS I TELL YOU THE TRUTH: IT IS EXPEDIENT FOR YOU THAT I GO AWAY: FOR IF I GO NOT AWAY, THE COMFORTER WILL NOT COME UNTO YOU: BUT IF I DEPART, I WILL SEND HIM UNTO YOU. AND WHEN HE IS COME, HE WILL REPROVE THE WORLD OF SIN, AND OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, AND OF JUDGMENT: OF SIN, BECAUSE THEY BELIEVE NOT ON ME; OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, BECAUSE I GO TO THE FATHER, AND YE SEE ME NO MORE; OF JUDGMENT, BECAUSE THE PRINCE OF THIS WORLD IS JUDGED. I HAVE YET MANY THINGS TO SAY UNTO YOU, BUT YE CANNOT BEAR THEM NOW. HOWBEIT WHEN THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH IS COME, HE WILL GUIDE YOU INTO ALL TRUTH; FOR HE SHALL NOT SPEAK OF HIMSELF; BUT WHATSOEVER HE SHALL HEAR, THAT SHALL HE SPEAK; AND HE WILL SHEW YOU THINGS TO COME. HE SHALL GLORIFY ME; FOR HE SHALL RECEIVE OF MINE, AND SHALL SHEW IT UNTO YOU. ALL THINGS THAT THE FATHER HATH ARE MINE; THEREFORE SAID I, THAT HE SHALL TAKE OF MINE, AND SHALL SHEW IT UNTO YOU."

These verses show that the main purposes of the coming of the Spirit and of the experience of being baptized into Him is:
-comfort
-reproof of sin, righteousness, and judgment
-guiding us into the truth
-showing us prophecies of what is to come
-glorification of Jesus
-speaking and revealing to us whatever the Son and the Father speak concerning us
There are many who want the baptism into the Spirit's power to be synonymous with salvation, but that has to deny, or twist many passages of the Word of God. Not only that, but it is still happening, as shown by multitudes.

When you received the Lord as your Savior, your spirit became alive again. Your spirit within you began to assert itself over your soul and body. This spirit is the dwelling place of God within you. Your spirit united with God's spirit at salvation.

Some say, "How can I receive the Spirit when He already dwells within me?" The baptism of the Holy Spirit is not the receiving of the Spirit into your life--all Christians have the Spirit working in their lives. At the baptism of the Spirit, the Holy Spirit completely fills your life. The word "baptize" in the classical Greek was used of a sunken, waterlogged ship. The Lord wants us to be more than:
born of the Spirit,
or used of the Spirit,
or regenerated of the Spirit
--He wants us to be waterlogged with the Spirit.
John 7:38 "HE THAT BELIEVETH ON ME... OUT OF HIS BELLY SHALL FLOW RIVERS OF LIVING WATER (the Holy Spirit)."

The baptism of the Spirit will aid in the production of the "image of Christ" in us.

Galatians 5:16 "WALK IN THE SPIRIT AND YE SHALL NOT FULFILL THE LUST OF THE FLESH."

We are not made perfect by the infilling of the Holy Spirit. Yet, when we are Spirit-filled, the Spirit will help us resist the lusts and temptations of the flesh. There will still be ups and downs. However, the Spirit is better able to direct, to aid, to uplift, and to convict. We can still refuse or ignore His help. The baptism of the Holy Spirit makes us more aware of sin, and gives us more desire to shun sin. With this new power we have received, we have power to resist sin, if we so choose.

There are many negative reactions to the experience known as the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Some say that it is of Satan. Yet, time has shown that those filled with the Spirit have a deep love of God and Christ. Missionary zeal among Spirit-filled people is great.

Some say that the experience was only for the apostolic age. Yet, the verses of Joel that predicted the experience, is not yet completely fulfilled as yet. So we are still in the process of seeing those verses being fulfilled.

TruthSetsYouFree said:

There is a gift of tongues, which is meant for edification of the body of Christ. This is not the same as the personal prayer language tongue, which is given to everybody who is baptized in the Holy Ghost, and is meant for personal edification.

Jesus said that them who believe will speak in tongues (Mark 16:17), Jude 20 tells us to be building ourselves up praying in the Holy Ghost, etc. This is not the same kind of tongue that is meant for group edification.

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17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover."

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Would you agree that all those things that Christ said they would do requires the power of the Holy Spirit. Remember that Healing, Miracles, Tongues are all gifts of the Spirit. So not only would people speak in tongues they would also work miracles and perform healings as well via the infilling of the Spirit.

What does this mean to you..

29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But earnestly desire the best gifts. And yet I show you a more excellent way.

This is not the same kind of tongue that is meant for group edification.

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Paul teaches that there is one gift of Tongue...

7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: 8 for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.

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I don't see 2 tongues listed by Paul. Rather Paul goes on to explain how tongues is to be used either in a group/congregational setting, or by praying one on one with God. Both examples are the same gift. I can get into a car and either drive slow or fast. I don't have to have two different cars, one for driving slow or one for driving fast. I use the same vehicle. The gift of tongues is the same way. No where will you find in scripture a seperation or the idea of 2 different tongues.

Let me clarify a few things so that people don't get me wrong here...

The infilling of the spirit happens at Salvation. The evidence of that infilling can happen immediately by evidence in; Prophecy, Miracles, Healing, Wisdom, Faith, Discernment, Tongues, Interpretation, knowledge. These all produce fruit in the believers. The one evidence of the infilling that many if not all new believers show is Faith, for by what are we saved... Faith in Christ.

Now Paul teaches that the Holy Spirit gives these gifts to whom He wishes

11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.

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So the question then is, should we pray for tongues, or should we pray for the Holy Spirit to give us what he wants and like Paul says to earnestly desire the best gifts....?

Paul also teaches that as the body of Christ we cannot exist all having the same abilities...

12 For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and have all been made to drink into F40 one Spirit. 14 For in fact the body is not one member but many. 15 If the foot should say, "Because I am not a hand, I am not of the body," is it therefore not of the body? 16 And if the ear should say, "Because I am not an eye, I am not of the body," is it therefore not of the body? 17 If the whole body were an eye, where would be the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where would be the smelling? 18 But now God has set the members, each one of them, in the body just as He pleased. 19 And if they were all one member, where would the body be? 20 But now indeed there are many members, yet one body. 21 And the eye cannot say to the hand, "I have no need of you"; nor again the head to the feet, "I have no need of you." 22 No, much rather, those members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary. 23 And those members of the body which we think to be less honorable, on these we bestow greater honor; and our unpresentable parts have greater modesty, 24 but our presentable parts have no need. But God composed the body, having given greater honor to that part which lacks it, 25 that there should be no schism in the body, but that the members should have the same care for one another. 26 And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; or if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it.

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And once again Paul says "Will all speak with tongues"?

27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually. 28 And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But earnestly desire the best F41 gifts. And yet I show you a more excellent way.

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This basically is Paul discourse in a nutshell. The body is to exist with different members and those different members are to have various gifts and abilities. Sure there can be more than one person with the same gift(s), but just like a body could not survive with a body made up of livers, neither should we the church be made up of believers who all speak in tongues who never consider the fact that the Holy Spirit may want them to be prophetic, or even use miracles or heal or use discernment. This is where the Pentecostal churches are missing the mark. We have elevated tongues to a must have while the other gifts are treated like red-headed step children...

The bottom line is, if you don't want to speak in tongues, then don't. If you think you are living a victorious life and walking in everything that God has for you, then there's nothing to discuss here.

That's fine with us, just don't criticize those who want to speak in tongues because they know they are being built up and they know it glorifies Jesus.

If I want to worship and praise God in tongues, then that's my prerogative, and none of your business. I've never operated in the gift of tongues while in a public worship service, but I have spoken in other tongues and sung in the spirit at home when it was just my heavenly Father and me.

If you don't want that, then so be it... but at the same time, don't knock it.
It's working for us and it's pleasing to our Father. That's what we care about.

RevKidd said:

29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But earnestly desire the best gifts. And yet I show you a more excellent way.

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This verse is referring to the gift of tongues that is used during a public setting and requires an interpretation. Are all teachers? Of course not, but we can all teach can't we? All are prophets? Of course not, but we can all prophesy. Do all have gifts of healing? Of course not, but we've all been given the authority as believers to lay hands on the sick and see them recover.


Some people will never believe, no matter what you say.



This discussion is over for me.

justinstout said:

The bottom line is, if you don't want to speak in tongues, then don't. If you think you are living a victorious life and walking in everything that God has for you, then there's nothing to discuss here.

That's fine with us, just don't criticize those who want to speak in tongues because they know they are being built up and they know it glorifies Jesus.

If I want to worship and praise God in tongues, then that's my prerogative, and none of your business. I've never operated in the gift of tongues while in a public worship service, but I have spoken in other tongues and sung in the spirit at home when it was just my heavenly Father and me.

If you don't want that, then so be it... but at the same time, don't knock it.
It's working for us and it's pleasing to our Father. That's what we care about.

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Hey calm down... No one is knocking nothing my friend. Who is criticizing anything? I never said you couldn't do anything now did I?

My point is that Paul teaches 9 gifts of the spirit not just tongues. How many threads do you see started every week by people asking how do I speak in tongues, tongues this, tongues that. But you don't hear people seeking the gift of healing, or miracles or discernment or faith or wisdom do you... Why is that?

This verse is referring to the gift of tongues that is used during a public setting and requires an interpretation. Are all teachers? Of course not, but we can all teach can't we? All are prophets? Of course not, but we can all prophesy. Do all have gifts of healing? Of course not, but we've all been given the authority as believers to lay hands on the sick and see them recover.

Some people will never believe, no matter what you say.

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I would say that you are incorrect in your interpretation. Paul is not talking about the type of tongues spoken in a congregation. He is talking about Tongues as a whole. He hasn't gotten that far yet. That comes is Chapter 14. Nowhere in the context of 12 does he state "Now this for tongues used only in the congregtion". Granted since his context is about the body that it is refferring to the congregation, but you still have to prove the two different gifts of tongues theory, with scriptures. Please.

This discussion is over for me.

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Typical

All are prophets? Of course not, but we can all prophesy.

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Did anyone else see the contradiction in this...

RevKidd,

In Acts 19, can you tell me why it says that they didn't receive the Holy Ghost until the hands were laid on them? It didn't just say that they spoke in tongues, it says that they received the Holy Ghost... when? When Paul laid hands on them!

Acts 19:6, "And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied."

The baptism of the Holy Ghost is often transferred through the laying on of hands... see [font=verdana,arial,helvetica]1 Timothy 4:14, "Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery."

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I have never spoken in tounges,but there are times when i have been in prayer when i can barely suppress a wordless groan that seems to press out from the center of my chest and makes it hard to think coherent speach.........Back to pentacost however and the "gift ".Isnt it true that there were others of the international cross section of jewery that all spoke second languages and these interpreted the "TOUNGUES"spoken by the apostles?These were real languages.When one speaks in "Toungues "today are these also intelligable foriegn tounges being spoken?or the deep worship of the heart uttered in spiritual voicings that have no parrallel in this world?I have heard a few people over come in the spirit enough to break into an un inteligable(to my ear)phrase while speaking in a meeting,but more than that i have not witnessed.I have often felt the urge or leading of the Holy Spirit to make my self clean enough physically so that i could get to where where others could be healed through me....though i have nevr prophecied per se. i have had visions of future outcomes of what ever is happening at the time.that have plyed out in the future as if i had watched a movie of them,and can remember (usually too late to change the couse of events)knowing what is playing out before me from a past vision .Yet i have never conscoiusly prophecied.I have had water baptism, as an adult but no laying on of hands.Do you have to have spirit baptism to experience the fullness of these gifts spoken of by paul? I have to say i want as much of that i as can recieve i am sure....

Not to raise controvercy, but in any case, whether you believe that tongues continued into the church age or not (which is probably not as clear from Scriptures as either Pentecostals/charismatics or cessationists would like to believe), the Bible is clear about a few things about tongues:
- Tongues in the Bible were always known languages. In every single example we have of speaking in tongues in the Bible, it was in a known language. The Greek word that the Bible uses for tongues is the ordinary word for languages. By this definition, quite a bit of modern-day tongue speaking probably is not the Biblical gift of tongues, as many studies (such as Samarin's study) seem to indicate that quite a bit of modern-day tongues have absolutely no characterististics of known languages.
- In 1 Cor. 12:30, Paul asks rhetorically, "do all speak in tongues?" - the implied answer being "no." Clearly, not everyone ever was intended to have the gift of tongues, or even to speak in tongues, and there is absolutely no Biblical evidence that tongues are evidence of salvation or the indwelling or filling of the Holy Spirit. This also disproves someone's earlier comment that everyone has spoken in tongues and just hasn't known it.
- Tongues are a sign for the unbeliever, not the believer! (1 Cor. 14:22)
- Only 2 or 3 should be permitted to speak in tongues in church (1 Cor. 14:27)
- If anyone speaks in tongues, only one must speak at a time (1 Cor. 14:27)
- If anyone speaks in tongues, it must be interpreted (1 Cor. 14:6-17, 27-28)
- Women are not permitted to prophecy or speak in tongues in church, but must rather remain silent (1 Cor. 14:34-35, 1 Timothy 2:11-12).
- Tongues are inferior to other gifts such as prophecy (1 Cor. 14:5), and are useless without the virtue of love (1 Cor. 13:1).
- There is no Scriptural evidence for "private prayer language" or that tongues were meant for private prayer.

Tongues, then, should be interpreted and spoken by men, one at a time, no more than three people, to edify the church (not oneself), as a sign to the unbeliever, are inferior to prophecy, and are worthless without the virtue of love. Although this is not frequently taught or practiced, this is what is clearly indicated in Scripture.

TruthSetsYouFree said:

RevKidd,

In Acts 19, can you tell me why it says that they didn't receive the Holy Ghost until the hands were laid on them? It didn't just say that they spoke in tongues, it says that they received the Holy Ghost... when? When Paul laid hands on them!

Acts 19:6, "And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied."

The baptism of the Holy Ghost is often transferred through the laying on of hands... see [font=verdana,arial,helvetica]1 Timothy 4:14, "Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery."

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Well we have to examine all scripture first. One of the things that we have to realize is that Yes, scripture does say that the spirit fills those or comes upon those by the laying on of hands.

However, we have also 1 Corinthians to examine as well. We can't have one without the other. Paul is exhorting the church in Corinth to be in full understanding of the Gifts, how and why they are to be used. Reading 1 Corinthians 12 - 14 you get the impression that the church was just as infatuated with tongues as the church is today. At the end of Ch. 12 in 1 Corinthians Paul does say, will all be Prophets, teachers, and speak in tongues. That clearly says that not all should speak in tongues, nor should everyone be prophets, nor should we all teach.

Paul makes it a point to say that not ALL will have the same gifts. Because of this we can also say with much certainty that there were probably those that had hands laid on them and tongues didn't happen. That's why Paul IMO would say "earnestly desire the best gifts"...

Why do you see some today who pray for hours seeking tongues and they don't get it. Hands have been layed on them. People have probably grabbed their chins and yelled gibberish in their ears as well trying to get them to utter something. But according to what Paul says it's the Holy Spirits will to decide what we should have, no ours.

Today we as leaders in God's church must teach fullness in the Body of Christ. I certainly believe in tongues. I have spoken in tongues before, but when I realized that God has more to give me my ministry has been much more powerful than sitting around thinking about how much I can speak in tongues and getting my friends to do the same.

We have to realize, as Paul taught (that many of you on these boards ignore) is the fact that we are a body, we all can't be tongue talkers and I know that bothers many of you. But because of this mentality today that tongues is the spiritual climax we have forsaken prophecy, healing, miracles, faith, wisdom, knowledge and so on. Our churches are not operating fully in the Gifts. And like Paul said to Timothy neglect not the gift, however, many don't even have the gift the Holy Spirit wants to give them because they think tongues is it. I would even guess that 75 - 80% of those who speak in tongues or want tongues aren't suppose to have it and those that do, probably are not excersizing true tongues...

Tongues, then, should be interpreted and spoken by men, one at a time, no more than three people, to edify the church (not oneself), as a sign to the unbeliever, are inferior to prophecy, and are worthless without the virtue of love. Although this is not frequently taught or practiced, this is what is clearly indicated in Scripture.

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Very true...

Let me those who read this....

Why do you think tongues is so evident in Acts?

What was and is tongues true purpose for the body and the believer?

Sorry to be pushy, cuz I know the conversation's moved on, but can someone please try answer this for me? *quotes herself*

AwesomeWonder said:

my personal opinion is that generally if you dont believe in it, it won't happen...like churches who don't believe in prophesy won't prophesy, churches who don't believe God can heal won't see healings...like if you aren't expecting God to move then most times he won't...i dont know, just a thought...a lot of people don't believe that it still happens today and so they're kinda putting God's power in a box. essentially it's personal preference...

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I have a question about that! I'm not sure if I agree with you or not - I've thought about that a lot before, and I agree that you have to believe to see the miracles. Except... there seem to be exceptions to that. For example, I've heard of non-Christians, even atheists, experiencing miracles or divine healing. God has done miraculous things and moved in people's lives when they DON'T believe.

Yet mostly, if you have no faith in God, God won't show himself to you.
Yet again, it's God that gives us the faith to believe in him in the first place.
What do you think about... all of that?

Love Confused Person. x

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RevKidd said:

Well we have to examine all scripture first. One of the things that we have to realize is that Yes, scripture does say that the spirit fills those or comes upon those by the laying on of hands.

However, we have also 1 Corinthians to examine as well. We can't have one without the other. Paul is exhorting the church in Corinth to be in full understanding of the Gifts, how and why they are to be used. Reading 1 Corinthians 12 - 14 you get the impression that the church was just as infatuated with tongues as the church is today. At the end of Ch. 12 in 1 Corinthians Paul does say, will all be Prophets, teachers, and speak in tongues. That clearly says that not all should speak in tongues, nor should everyone be prophets, nor should we all teach.

Paul makes it a point to say that not ALL will have the same gifts. Because of this we can also say with much certainty that there were probably those that had hands laid on them and tongues didn't happen. That's why Paul IMO would say "earnestly desire the best gifts"...

Why do you see some today who pray for hours seeking tongues and they don't get it. Hands have been layed on them. People have probably grabbed their chins and yelled gibberish in their ears as well trying to get them to utter something. But according to what Paul says it's the Holy Spirits will to decide what we should have, no ours.

Today we as leaders in God's church must teach fullness in the Body of Christ. I certainly believe in tongues. I have spoken in tongues before, but when I realized that God has more to give me my ministry has been much more powerful than sitting around thinking about how much I can speak in tongues and getting my friends to do the same.

We have to realize, as Paul taught (that many of you on these boards ignore) is the fact that we are a body, we all can't be tongue talkers and I know that bothers many of you. But because of this mentality today that tongues is the spiritual climax we have forsaken prophecy, healing, miracles, faith, wisdom, knowledge and so on. Our churches are not operating fully in the Gifts. And like Paul said to Timothy neglect not the gift, however, many don't even have the gift the Holy Spirit wants to give them because they think tongues is it. I would even guess that 75 - 80% of those who speak in tongues or want tongues aren't suppose to have it and those that do, probably are not excersizing true tongues...

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If I'm not mistaken, you still have not answered my question.

Why does it say that the Holy Ghost came on them? It doesn't say a gift, it said the HOLY GHOST came on them when hands were laid on them.

AwesomeWonder said:

there seem to be exceptions to that. For example, I've heard of non-Christians, even atheists, experiencing miracles or divine healing. God has done miraculous things and moved in people's lives when they DON'T believe.

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A couple of things can cause a healing or miracle in an unbeliever's life:

-God's mercy (He heals believers because of the covenant, but sometimes He also heals unbelievers out of mercy... sometimes God does something in a person's life, so that they will come to Him)

- False (demonic) miracles and healings. The pagans are even known to attempt deliverances themselves, but in reality all they do is 'coax' the demons down so it 'seems' like they are gone. There's always a steep price to pay when accessing demonic power of any kind though (they almost always end up demonized).

I hope this helps.
Bobby